PaxArcana

Rivalries between different criminal factions is entirely reasonable, IMO. So one of the options in my idea would be, say ... "Steal Something", and maybe wind up facing another criminal group, not the police. The costumed opposition you might have picked, might then be a fellow Villain - and, nothin' personal, but he's on a payroll and has a rep to uphold, so it's fightin' time. 😄 ... by the way, you double-quoted me. Nested in itself. Might want to clean that up. 🙂

Yes, it would. Or at least greatly reduce it. Because then, they would no longer be accomplishments. They'd be little more than "oh, you decided to go with a BLUE cape this time" costume-change triviality. ... But you know, you keep saying out one side of your mouth "I don't want the badges given out", then out the other side of your mouth, work to undercut my assertion "I don't want the badges given out". Why is that? If getting the actual badges doesn't need to be part of the fix you're seeking, then why are you fighting against my opposition to getting the badges ... when I have already, more than once, said I'd be completely fine with PvP-zone-wide buffs giving all the benefits of those accolades...? IOW, if the badges really don't matter, why do you seem to be fighting so hard to get them? Why aren't you instead saying to me, "that's a fair point. But, as for getting the effects without the badges, only while in a PvP area, you're okay with that, right?" ... and trying to enlist me as an ally for that level of change? (Which I would gladly enough be!) Except, literally everyone got Fitness. PvP, PvE, both, whoever you were ... you got inherent Fitness. Your proposal would either be for the benefit of only PvPers, or else, would cheapen PvE accomplishments by trivializing them. That's not balance, that's favoritism.

Again, "that's an MMORPG for you". In this case, one that had to maintain it's T / PEGI 12 rating. Having the missions be truly villainous, would have entailed a rating of at least M / PEGI 16 (cutting out 12-, 13-, 14-, and 15-year-old kids worldwide, and 16-year-old kids in the U.S.), or even all the way to an A / PEGI 18 rating (the kiss of death, at least in the U.S. - I have no idea if shops will carry PEGI 18 titles in Europe, but they very very rarely carry A rated titles here in the States). Real-world villainy tends to involve not just theft and bank robbery, but things like pornography, prostitution, and drugs. Including some of the worst, most horrible forms of those. Can you just imagine the global furor, if a previously "Rated T for Teen" game, considered entirely okay for 13 and 14 year old kids to play, suddenly included missions where the player would be involved in human trafficking, maybe even of children...? Or acts of actual, overt terrorism, possibly using WMDs or biological weapons? (Keep in mind, even CoV's launch wasn't all that many years after 9/11 ...!) It would have killed the entire game. Possibly overnight. Well, to avoid that whole minefield, they just had to keep the villain missions "suitable for 12 year old kids", through and through. Which, yes, limits just how villainous you can feel, if you're an adult. But, it's a price that had to be paid, to have City of Villains at all. ... What I wish is, that there had been a way for you to construct your own schemes, with a sort of "Mad-Lib" system. Pick the overall scheme and general location. Intentionally add in some "plot twists / complications" to set the difficulty and reward levels. Then have the system procedurally generate the mission (e.g., you choose "bank robbery" and "Paragon City", with complications being "Signature Hero with Sidekick" and "High Security". The system has lists of a couple dozen or more items to fill in the specifics of each - bank name, neighborhood/area of the chosen area, a whole roster of heroes and potential sidekicks, etc. So maybe your 15th level character gets sent to rob Paragon Savings & Loan, in King's Row; it turns out to be a front for Family money laundering operation, so surprise there's Family goons inside, allied to the usual bank security types. And on your way out, along comes "Red Falcon" and his plucky young sidekick, Sparrow, to try and foil your dastardly plot. If you succeed, you'll get quite a bit of Infamy and Experience (after all, you just knocked over a Mob bank and kicked a Cape's teeth in). THAT, instead of the Paper, would have let people feel truly like their own villain, instead of being a lackey. And really, the Newspaper almost does that. It just doesn't let you fill out any of hte "broad framework" parts of the Mad Lib yourself. You only get "rob a bank", if the system pulls that one out of the hat as one of the three options ... so you're still not really in control of what kinds of crimes you commit, let alone where or against who. For example, if you have a Fire/Poison Corruptor, named Arsonic, maybe you almost always go for "Arson" overall mission types ... or you have a Cold/Cold Dominator named The Krampus and always go for Kidnapping missions ... or a Brute, any sort of Brute, named Dyzaster Zone who always goes for mayhem-style "break all the things" Rampage missions ... and OH HEY, now the crimes you commit, fit your concept for what kind of villain you've decided to play! Sadly, that's not what we got, so that only compounds the "must be suitable for a 12 year old" limitations of Villain storylines. 😞

Straw man. It's true, I dislike PvP. Or rather, I should say, I dislike 99.999% of the people I encounter in PvP. But I don't oppose anything and everything PvP just because of that. I very specifically oppose things that would intrude upon PvE (including by cheapening the achievement of earning an accolade badge via PvE means), and I very specifically oppose things that would drag PvEers largely-unwillingly into PvP enabled areas. An analogy for you: I've got nothing against corn, and I've got nothing against rice pilaf. I just don't want them to touch and/or mix on my plate.

A sense of satisfaction. ... I collect currency. Foreign, old, unusual. I don't get anything from most of it, except the pleasure of having them. For example, I have a paper bank note, over eighty years old, with a face value of 500,000. That's 500,000 Reichsmarks, issed in Austria in 1938 or 1939. It literally isn't even worth the paper it's printed on, except to a fellow collector. But, I can say "I have a paper bank note with a face value of half a million", and I can also say "I have a relic of the Nazi regime". I also have almost two dozen roman coins, minted between 500BCE and 500CE. They're tiny little specks of bronze. All twenty of them cost some thirty or forty dollars on Amazon.com - they were found in a hoard that had over a hundred thousand of the things, IIRC. They're not even worth the weight of the metal in them ... and being bronze, not pure copper, and truly MINISCULE ... even that isn't worth much. But, I get to pick one up, and hold something almost two thousand years old in my hand. In both cases, it's the sense of history I care about - not any real or tangible benefit. It's the same with badges in CoH. It's the pleasure of collecting them - and not having them all just handed to me, but having to go forth and collect, young man. That's what I get from them. ... Let me ask you a counter-question: why do you care that I value the badges enough, not to want people to get it without working for them? That includes myself, by the by. I think I had, like, TWO accolades back on Live. None here. I didn't earn 'em, so I didn't (and still don't) have them ... as it should be. If you truly don't care about the actual badges, if you don't want them easier or for free ... why not support the "suppress and buff-replace" version?

I'd be very interested, but I am already stridently opposed to most PvP ideas that might step on PvE's toes, that I'm willing to give ground on the version that also offers a zone-wide buff of equivalent effect. ... which is a large part of why I'm so stridently opposed to this idea in specific.

And I'll wager that I don't give a damn if they care or not. I care about the badges, and I'm probably (almost certainly) not alone in that. If you want the badge, you work for it. If you don't want to work for it, then you don't really want the badge. And since badges (divorced from attached powers or effects) have no impact on gameplay, then it seems to me, that you also care about the badges, if you're going to argue you should get them without earning them.

I'm fine, as I've said multiple times now, with zone-wide buffs that give all the effects of accolade powers. What I am not fine with, is giving the actual Accolades (and thus, badges) by alternate means. Effects: zone-wide buff, good to go. Actual badges: earn 'em or live without 'em.

I last played Live at the end of Issue 13, so I wasn't here to be "outraged" by any of that (which, by the by, is overblowing my reaction by at least an order of magnitude - I would merely say "opposed"), except the beginner's luck. Which was done primarily to help new players not be put off by low to-hit rates, when they were just getting started in the game (and had no sugar daddy alts to keep them supplied with enhancements). And aside from changing when EATs and VEATs unlock, those weren't cases of getting things without working for them. Everyone got Fitness, everyone (except a rare few oddballs) got a Travel power. Accolades are things you have to work for. And to be completely honest, I care less about the accolade POWERS (hence, supporting the idea of a zone-wide buff that replicates them, in a way that doesn't stack with any existing accolade powers you DO have) .... than I do about the BADGES. You want that shiny Watchman Badge? Earn it, the same way everyone else does. You want it's effect in PvP zones and arenas? A zone-wide buff should suffice. Otherwise .... why should I have to engage in PvP, in order to earn a badge like Disruptor or Time Machinist ...? What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, after all ... ((On a related note, I am sad that you no longer have to do the Cape mission to earn the right to wear one. That change sucks balls. 😢 ))

... do you at least try, once per team, to say "hey, let me through the door!" ...?

This is the important part, Justice. You seem to have missed it, from in the middle of the very bit you quoted. Macskull says the request is for "accolades [in] PvP without having to grind PvE" ... IOW, "gimmeh teh shineez nao kthxbai".

That was a modification. The original suggestion was a way to get those accolades through purely PvP activities, in the PvP zones. (Which IMO would have cheapened them.)

Personally, I rather like the idea that came up later in the thread: strip away all accolade effects in PvP zones, but apply a zone-wide buff to every player that exactly mirrors the effects of those accolades. No-one gets the accolades (and their shiny badges) without actually doing the work ... but everyone gets a level playing field, without those who DID put in the work getting the short end of the stick.

Because it's not possible for a character to be flagged "PvP only"; those PvP characters can then go into PvE content, freely and without restriction. Fix that - make it so you can make a PvP-only character that cannot engage in PvE with all their levels, slotting, etc intact - and then, sure, Insta-50's, have fun.

No, not that extreme. But there should never be non-PvP content, that cannot also be had in non-PvP zones. e.g. Radio and Paper missions against Shivans. As long as the content fulfills either one of these: explicitly involves PvP; is also available in PvE zones (preferably other than through AE); ... then I'm good with it being in PvP zones.

I'm sure it would be. But it needs to not be PvE activities. Otherwise, that's what it would end up being: bait. People who don't want to PvP, but do want to face shivans, etc, would wind up feeling compelled to go to the PvP zones. Where, if they were actually PvPed, many would then complain - loudly, and with unkind words. Which in turn would only increase the friction between the PvE and PvP communities. So, any new variety added to a PvP zone, needs to explicitly be PvP content. More zone events would be good. Maybe something like a door mission that two opposing teams can enter (there'd have to be a LFG queue for it, of course), where each team has various objectives - you can pursue your own, or try to stop the other side, or both. Whoever gets their objectives finished first, wins and gets a greater reward than the losing team. (I'm not a PvPer, and even I might try that sort of thing out, at least a few times!) I'm not upset by PvPers doing their levelling in PvE areas. They're PvPers, not lepers. 😄 What I want, is the other way around: I want not one single player to enter a PvP zone except to engage in PvP. And I want that to happen, because there's no reason to enter those zones for any other reason. ... Also, you can already get door missions in PvP zones. Not story arcs, and not Radio/Paper missions, and not any sort of basic content you can't get in PvE zones already. You even get a big fat bonus to XP and INF for the first such mission you complete each hour. In fact ... doing the exact same "destroy Longbow base" mission, once an hour, four to six times a day for over a week, is how I ground my main on Live through the content gap I ran into, around level 38 ... when no-one in Grandville would talk to me until level 41 or 42 IIRC. And, this was before pets would zone with you, too!! So I would have to double-quick zip my way between Contact and Door (it really helped I had Teleport on him), hope no-one was camping the door (it was always the same one), and get inside to start the long, drawn-out "summon, equip, upgrade" process .. in order to do a 10-minute mission, exit, scurry back to the contact, claim my reward, and .... log out for the rest of the hour. Over and over and over. SO. MUCH. GRINDING. 😢 And I hated it as much for being forced to go into a PvP zone (because even the Newspaper refused to give me options anywhere else), as for the grind of it.

Translation: "Bait to lure in more victims ... er, I mean, players."

Really, no, there isn't. You know what pet controls I most often use? The three predefined buttons (though I change "Follow" to put the pets in Defensive rather than Aggressive) ... and a keybind, Control+Q, that dismisses all of them. Second place, I set up keybinds to summon and upgrade my pets. 1, 2, and 3 summon the three tiers; 4 targets the nearest pet; 5 and 6 are for upgrade powers. Third place, I use Control+Click to send a Goto command to my pets, without changing their Stance. ... That's it. Other than the summoning (which is mostly to keep my trays from being filled with those powers), I use two nonstandard controls, a GOTO and a GET LOST. Other than that, it's only a matter of paying attention and thinking about what the pets are doing ... neither of which are terribly complex.

Hell yeah!!

The opposite is true, really. Blast (etc) sets are not generally defined by their Snipe, and whether it is fast or not. They are defined by their visuals, their damage type, and a series of quirks within the set. No longer having to take X set - or Y power and Z slotting - to get those fast snipes, means people can and will experiment with other powersets entirely. You will see more, not less, diversity as a result.

... that's an MMORPG for you, really. If you want to be truly villainous, and hatch your own schemes ...? The Architect is waiting for you ...

I was not arguing that point. The claim was made that "going to a PvP zone when there's no-one there, is not investing time in PvP content". I was arguing against that - because the truth is, as soon as you set foot in a PvP zone, you are "investing time in PvP content." This, however, I absolutely 110% disagree with. It amounts to ... wel, not forced PvP, let's instead say, compelled PvP. That should never happen. Never. And it was a mistake for the Devs, when they made those zones, to put anything of interest to PvE players in there - including exploration badges, but especially parts of the redside accolades. No-one should ever have any reason to set foot in a PvP zone, except to seek PvP.

Nail, meet Hammer ...

/JRanger to all of it.

Yes, it is. We cannot know, for certain, that there are no hostile players in the zone when we enter it; We cannot know for certain that no hostile players will enter the zone while we are there; Thus, this creates a mindset / "feel" / "atmosphere" of play that differs from that of a purely-PvE experience. I have an anxiety disorder. Just entering a PvP zone, given #1 and #2 above, quickens my pulse and increases my blood pressure. Even without having yet seen another player. It therefor absolutely is "investing time in PvP content".