Rylas

I'm pretty sure just removing it is out of the question, as much as I'd agree with you. Are there any strongly Def reliant sets that don't offer -Def Debuff resistance? I can't think of any off the top of my head. If not, I could get behind this idea. That or turning it into -def and -res. Or a self damage penalty. At least those options affect everyone the same.

Okay, we're letting this thread devolve (I'm guilty of this too) instead of taking a good opportunity to provide ideas. Especially when it's been expressed that: I'm compiling a list of suggestions that have been tossed out there so we can at least make this a bit more organized. We all have some thoughts on this, and certainly some strong feelings, but we don't have to be like herding cats without Taunt and a corner. If I've missed a suggestion that's been made in this thread, please add it on to the list. • Replace -Def with self damage • 160% damage boost for 2 minutes with just the damage crash. But a 7-8 minute cooldown • Change the -Def penalty to -Def AND -Res • Reduce the +damage and/or +tohit of Rage. • Reduce the duration AND cooldown so that the -damage crash happens somewhat more frequently. • Increase the endurance crash/initial cost. • Prevent Rage from stacking altogether. • Allow Unrelenting in Presence to *passively* mitigate the crash. • let -Def be resistable • Rage as auto power, each SS attack you activate builds Rage up to 8 times for 10% damage (and 2.5% ToHit) a stack (bolded is my addition, hope you don't mind Joe_Zard) Let's maybe stop digging at each other and first get a list with plenty of options. If we could avoid ad hominem reactions and tackle the merits of actual suggestions, that'd be great. It might help if we could agree on some basics. Such as: sets are balanced around SOs. Having some common starting points might help keep this a productive effort. It's just a thought, but how derailed we're getting isn't helpful. [edited for clarity]

Not that showcasing one set in your avatar means anything... But he would be correct. Your suggestion completely ignores the fact that all of SS is balanced with Rage in mind. And that without it SS would suffer terribly in the end-game due to Smashing damage being so frequently resisted.

I don't think SO built Brutes can compare as easily as you imply with Tanks. The game is balanced around SOs, so if we want to make changes for tanks (and I'm not sure we really need to), the suggestions we make would need to keep that in mind. Are you suggesting that a whole spawn group of foes should be the new aggro limit? I'm not sure how this would work, seeing as team size determines spawn size, and the aggro cap is a hard number. Why not just find another tank to run with your team if you want to take on 34 foes at a time? There's already a -Range tied to Tankers' Taunt, but I wouldn't mind if we could actually get them to run into aggro aura range. So long as it wasn't something that could easily exploit AI into easy to beat scenarios.

I think for equal treatment, it would have to be -10% Def, and -20% Res. Defense and resistance mitigate damage at a 1:2 ratio.

There used to be sliders for the head (e.g. brow, eye width, nose length). At least, I could have sworn the live game had these. I don't see them now. Would love to have them back though.

And yet you still decided to use a purely retail format for your bad analogy. Pretty sure that's the whole point of blind auctions. Bids cannot be seen. The listing price can't be seen. It is advantageous for both the seller, and the potential buyers. Sure, you can play it the way you're describing, bidding higher and higher by incremental bids, but that's not a very efficient method. I know, I've tried. I could be misremembering, but I believe it prioritizes the highest bidder. Make you're small increases all you like, but someone's going to be impatient and buy it for more before you end up finding the lowest price listed. You have to be incredibly patient for low-ball strategy to pay off.

Ah, I see the problem. You're confusing retail with auctioning.

Not putting words in your mouth, just pointing out that temp power work arounds don't have any value when considering what changes could/should be made to Rage. I brought up the DPS drop (among other things) as a reason to drop the -Def penalty. I can appreciate work arounds, but they don't address the point I was bringing up.

That sums it up pretty well. Seeing bids would just ruin a good structure.

Could you provide some more context here? What armor set are you using? Is this an SO build? I ran an IO SS/Elec Brute. As a resist set, the -Def didn't really affect me. But even with Power Sink, I still needed to pay attention to Rage crashes. And I wasn't toting around temp powers to patch the -Dmg. Now, PS made the end crash manageable, but I still had to pay attention to when I needed to make sure I had PS available. The Rage crash still dictated gameplay in my situation. It wasn't a "click it and forget" power.

Sorry, I was unclear. Yes the dps hit sucks unless you use the work around of temp powers for the duration. And it is a work around, but it does work. Again, when we start balancing sets around temp powers...

When we start balancing sets around temp powers, I'll concede this as a valid argument.

Even with an amazing IO build for an SS/Elec Brute, I still felt like I had to pay attention to the crashes. He wasn't even a defensed base set. In fact, it was the other penalties that I was more concerned about, stacked Rage or not. But, if we still need more than just those drawbacks, might I suggest giving Rage the Energy Transfer treatment? No, not a longer animation. I mean the self -HP. At least that would affect all armor sets equally. Off topic: Would Energy Melee tweaks also be something that could be on the table? (to be hashed out in its own thread)

Fair enough point. But you're still going to have a substantial DPS drop. Not that I'm complaining about a drop, but it's certainly a downside.

Thanks for providing a starting point! It's always great how much this dev team pays attention to community concerns. Would you say there's openness on that table for just removing the -Def penalty? Considering the end crash (and what risks that can bring), the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back), and that SS is disadvantaged in the late game with prominent resists to S/L; do you consider there being a case that could be argued for it, even if not ultimately successful? And if not, could you think of what the desired effect of an alternative might achieve?

OP right now:

Speak for yourself. I slotted Musculature T4 in my Rad/Bio brute. It's an extra SO's worth of damage to my attacks and now the -Def Debuff in them is enhanced. I find it hard to believe all your powers have absolutely maxed out all aspect of enhancement you can put in them. Have you tried crafting an Alpha past T1?

Super Strength is balanced around Rage. And more importantly, having it running full time. SS is a good and fun set, I like it alright. But I would consider it hugely disadvantaged in the late game if it didn't have perma-Rage easily achieved with 3 SO Recharges. Being purely smash damage, SS would start to under perform as other type-mixed sets started getting SOs. I would argue in end-game content Rage starts to become not quite enough. Rage has plenty of penalties to offset being round-the-clock. It's mainly boosting a set that's almost always resisted to some degree. It comes with an endurance crash. One decent enough to end you if you haven't been paying attention. And SS, being more resisted and therefore requiring more hits to defeat a foe, can sneak up on you with endurance cost. On top of that, you won't be doing any damage for 10 secs. After all that, it's really not necessary to lose defense, you've got 10 secs where foes practically get pot shots. I mean, leave it in there if it really has to be, but turning it into Build Up wouldn't a good route.

Slot your attacks with Acc and End. Then as you move to six slots, add damage. Faster attacks mean more endurance spent in less time, so lose recharge for now. More accurate hits mean less wasted End. 3 slot your defense toggles with Def, not end. Seriously, why is there not Def in those armors??? Lose the leadership pool. It's costly on end and barely does anything for you. Medicine? I guess. But if you slotted for defense in your armors you wouldn't need it. 3 slot stamina. Slots 4–6 are getting you maybe .2 more End/sec. They're wasted. Hope that helps you going in the right direction.

My main on live was SS/Elec Brute. Loved playing him. And I never noticed any issues with survivability with the defense penalty. Though, I also had soft cap S/L from IOs, so that would have helped. Honestly, I don't see a reason for the -Def. The damage penalty and end crash is plenty of appropriate payment for a 2 minute Build Up power that can stack.

These were some of mine from back in the days of Live (some funny, some just fun): Safety Third – Inv/Axe Tanker with a peg leg, hook hand, and eye patch. If there was an Axe skin that was large scissors, he would have been running with them. Kaka de Muerte — Stone/SS Tanker made to look like, well... you get it. Had plenty of great battle cries too. Can o' Whoopass — Peacebringer. Surprisingly he was never forced into a name change. Durahell – SS/Elec Brute, punned after the Duracell battery The Right Hand of Gloom – Dark/Dark Brute who looked like a purple Hellboy Too many others I've forgotten. Maybe I have them saved in my Sentinel+ files.

If memory serves me correctly, Defenders and Corruptors (practically every AT) have different multipliers for different power types. So you Defender would also get more defense from, say, Combat Jumping than the Corruptor does. So not only will your primary and secondary powers be working on different scales, but pool powers will as well. Someone more familiar with this mechanic may have more to say on it. Or tell me how wrong I am.

Thanks for the more easily readable translation. Do you know what this equates to in DFB runs? Like, instead of level 20 after 4 runs with Double XP, how many runs would one need to do using Double XP to hit 20? Between 5 and 6? I won't lie, I'm not totally psyched about the DFB change. It certainly makes sense not to have people going 1–50 in it. But as a long time fan and player of the game, the first 20 levels of the game just don't excite me, and my play time is a lot less than it was when I was younger. Being able to take a character to 20 was a great way to see which sets I'd enjoy playing and investing in. Because even after 20, I have to take them out to the rest of the content I enjoy to see how they really play. Is there any chance of just doing a flat XP drop at level 20 (or 22, seeing as how the powers you get from the DFB stop working then anyway) instead of the gradual curve?