Coyote

You got us. It's a Sekrit Forum Conspiracy, where a bunch of us get together and troll a random poster's thread by arguing in it until we drown out whatever the OP wanted to talk about. Then, we follow him from forum to forum and keep doing it 😉 Fortunately for you, it's almost the end of the month, so we're going to pick a new target in a few days. Just hang in there until July 😛

Remember something when arguing on a forum... it's possible for two sides to both be right. Without agreeing on preconditions, I believe that it's possible for his claim to be 100% correct, if he's using different base assumptions than you are. Specifically, with high recharge and a proc-slotted primary Hold, which is a very reasonable (though not the only way) to build a Dominator, it is possible to have a rotation where the Hold fills in for gaps so that the T1 isn't needed. And a proc-slotted Hold will have higher DPA than a T1 blast, so this kind of rotation would have higher DPS than a rotation with a T1 in it... for all secondaries. It's just a matter of starting from a different premise. You're looking at the secondary only and building rotations out of them, and he's looking at a full build. Both are reasonable approaches, as looking at a full build sometimes minimizes differences between powersets (like a Blaster filling in with Char from the APPs minimizes DPS differences)... so if you want to compare only secondaries, then you don't care about full builds. But it's also reasonable to look at a full build with the idea that it is possible to make a full build for a character that skips the T1 regardless of the secondary and improves the DPS, so why care about T1 differences? So he makes a claim, and it's right with his presuppositions, and you make a claim that's right with your presuppositions, so sometimes before an argument starts, it's good to step back and clarify "this is what I'm starting with, and this is why". That way you see when differences arise because of real disagreements, or just because of arguing about different situations.

If you're willing to be as busy as a one-legged demon in a butt-kicking contest, Demons/EA are a great combination. Less busy and also great is Thermal. Time is also strong defensively, though not pairing quite as obviously with a Resist-based set like Demons, and leaves you more time for whipping.

Well, there are also slotting limitations. Like, after you put 4-6 Cloud Senses into Fearsome Stare, you're not going to bother to overslot it for -ToHit debuff. But if an EA teammate buffs you with Amp Up so that Fearsome Stare's debuff (and Fear duration, though that's less important) is stronger, that's definitely good. So you take powers that are good, worth slotting and using, and making them better. Frankly, the real problem with it, is that it would be a great power EARLY when your teammates won't have the slots to have all of their buffs/debuffs slotted, and improving -Def is useful, etc. By the time you do get it if it's a secondary, well, a lot of the buffs and debuffs are already slotted to be strong enough. Boosting them isn't really useless, but it's not nearly as useful as it would be to boost them at level 22 or so. 😞

Just to note, I run perma-Dom builds (not at perma-Hasten levels unless Force Feedbacks fire) with capped Range/AoE defenses. It may be possible to run them with capped Melee/Range (but I generally figure that if I'm in melee, the victim whose face is being ripped off isn't able to argue about it), I think it may actually be easier to cap Melee than AoE. And my Hold is usually slotted with the Dominator ATO so I'm getting the +Damage out of it, though not much damage directly from it. So while the builds ARE a bit tighter, they're not impossible to manage.

Waaaaait, that's a wrong approach to calculation. You're calculating a +X buff BECAUSE it's up 100% of the time, but you're not using temporary buffs even if they're higher. Like, if there is a powerset with +2X buff that's available 50% of the time, then the overall average buff would be the same. Several other powersets have +Damage buffs that are up part of the time. It's not fair to them to include Martial Combat's +Damage buff because it can be up 100% of the time, but not include Fire's larger buff because it's only up part of the time. If you will include the +Damage from a click buff, then all powersets with a +Damage click should get the benefit of their build-up power, even if you average out the buff uptime. Also, +Damage buffs show better on unslotted powers, so doing a "base damage" calculation with +Damage powers will favor the powersets with more +Damage, but at higher level with slotted powers a +20% buff will only give about +10% damage. So, in the end, it takes a more complicated analysis to calculate the DPA of a power if you will include a +Damage buff from the powerset. It's probably better to just note that some sets have better +Damage than others, and not actually throw them into the numbers of a single unslotted power.

Agree with almost everything. 1) single-target Holds generally get proc-slotted, or the Dominator +ATO, or both 2) T1 is useful for leveling and exemplaring, for a FEW builds. Generally Savage and Earth since they don't have that many ranged attacks otherwise. 3) The attack chains were base damage, so you would at least double them for slotting and set bonuses, but once you add up a +Damage Alpha slot and procs used in some attacks, you can probably get 150% increase or move over the base numbers that Hjarki put, plus pet damage (and aura damage for some sets). So where he has a set at 80 DPS, it can probably reach 200 DPS on direct attacks, then another 40+ from the pets, and it's not a proc-optimized build, so those numbers aren't as bad as they appear. To throw my two cents in on the T1: Dominators can use set bonuses, and there are good ones in the ranged attacks. If you need Recharge you can go with Decimation, and if you need Ranged Defense you have Thunderstrike. While leveling these attacks are useful, and still useful for some sets when exemplaring. I always slot them early, but often keep them later on since I exemplar enough. If I were playing almost exclusively at high level, granted, I may respec the slot out. Some of them are especially good (extra damage from Savage, high KU chance from Earth, -ToHit from Dark) and may be worth using more. But they generally don't fit into a maximal DPS chain unless you're soloing AVs and building for ranged defense, so that you can't use melee attacks.

I don't understand this. Yes, I can see a /Dark MM having issues with Endurance, they have multiple toggles and no +Recovery or +Endurance. But a slotted Energizing Circuit, if spammed, brings back over 2.5 EPS. Thats more than doubling the base endurance recovered for a character. If a Demon/EA MM can't manage Endurance burn with a power that returns better than 2 EPS, even with increased End costs for powers, how are other characters managing on a mere 3.5 EPS of recovery? My Bots/EA recovers about 5.6 EPS if I'm spamming Energizing Circuit... since it's not a top priority to use over other powers, I still manage well over 4 EPS, and I can push it up to 5.6 or so if Endurance is really a problem. Most characters don't get that kind of recovery.

Also, missing Domination by 2 seconds is a huge deal since it drops. Missing Hasten by 2 seconds just means 2 seconds of the buff lost. Not a big deal. I use binds that load different files, which alternate setting Domination/Hasten as the auto power, so as long as I'm moving or acting, I don't have a problem. But without those binds, I'd definitely put Domination on auto.

When acting the same way, correct. When designing them, it was considered that MMs could save on End by not having to spend End on an attack to finish off the last stragglers, as the pets would generally do it. So you pay more per attack, but you attack less. They also generally don't have full attack chains... Dark is the only one with a full single-target attack chain unless you fill it in with a pool attack. So again, you attack less. It's certainly true that a MM attacking at a rate comparable to other ATs will bottom out its Endurance faster.

This statement troubles me terribly with its terrible troubles. Or maybe tribbles.

Just to add a few notes about AoE: 1: Savage is high AoE and performs reasonably well, because its cone is mid-range and you can keep backing up while you're using it, then Feral Charge from max range into Rending Flurry. So you alternate 3 powers... while you have to move to get them all working, Unkindness doesn't root you and Savage Leap eliminates the closing leap that you normally have to do when going from a cone into a PBAoE. So you one have movement in one direction between RF to Unkindness, which isn't bad for 3 powers. 3 powers/1 movement action, rather than the usual 2 powers/2 moves that you would get from a set with 1 PBAoE and 1 cone. 2: Thorns is also surprisingly good at AoE when paired with a primary that will use an AoE Immob (or maybe Bonfire). You have two melee AoEs (one cone and one PBAoE) and one cone, but the DPS lost in moving is made up for by Thorntrops doing its DoT, and Thorns has a short wide cone (90 angle, I think, and only a 30 range, so it's a VERY short move in and out). It can move in and out from PBAoE to cone faster than other sets. While I hate its aesthetics, its stats are good and it pairs superbly with Plant.

I agree with @Hjarki completely. EA is a very busy set which leaves little time for blasting/controlling, and it's very strong defensively which is more important when your "team" is a bunch of low-HP henchmen who lack either real Resists or real Defenses (or if they're Ninjas, both 😛 ). So its strength on Defense matters more on a MM, and it's rather busy for pairing with a blasting or a controlling set.

I don't do farming, but the way my Plant/Savage goes through normal spawns at +3/x8 it should have no problems handling a farm at +4/x8... I only run +3 in case an AV drops by. Plant shuts pretty much everything down (and it's not like you'd be farming Confuse-resistant mobs except for practice in dealing where Seeds isn't useful), then Savage has a lot of AoE plus Creepers and Roots to eat minions fast. Then you have a lot of bodies to fuel tentacles so you get multiple tentacles hitting the Bosses... and they're hitting each other, too, due to Seeds. Plant/Earth and Plant/Thorns would also be good AoE options.

Arcanaville was gone, but her shadow lingers over this forum fore... oh, wait, my monitor was just dusty. Nevermind. 😆😝

Funny.... 5 expressed preferences for the secondary to pair with Fire... and they're all different 😄

Um, okay, but... the main effect of the Lich is -ToHit debuffs. I prefer to put Cloud Senses into it for great set bonuses, a damage proc, and enhancing the -ToHit. Its damage base is low enough that enhancing it isn't a great benefit, and while mezzing is nice, the Fear will get broken a lot by the other henchmen attacks, while the -ToHit won't. Unless you're running a set that already has a lot of -ToHit (Dark or maybe a Tankerminding Stormie), I think enhancing the -ToHit is more effective.

First, do the sets need to be different? If not, I would go with double Thugs. Sending in two Bruisers who can then split aggro and stack Handclap and double Footstomps for knockdows works a lot better than sending one in who may not survive pulling all that aggro. Then, stacking Maneuvers will help get them to or close to the softcap, so you can take two sets with +Resist to stack a lot of Resists together, or one +Resist set and Kinetics. An alternate option is double Demons, with the same plan: one set of +Resist to help get their Resists up, and one +Defense... maybe Cold and Thermal could make a theme.

3-slotted Heals and 6-slotted attacks? Clearly you don't know how to build or play a healer. Go back to the drawing board and 6-slot the three heals. 😛

You are correct. Changing their attack rate messed with the AI (for MOST pets... pets like Imps who only had one attack were probably not affected), so their powers were all blocked from being affected by Recharge buffing/debuffing. This was a deliberate design change, though I'm not sure that it couldn't be considered as having started from an AI bug.

I support this statement.

I would like to see Time Bomb changed into Explosive Drones... like Seeker Drones, but they will follow you and go and detonate when they aggro on something. So you can still use it PBAoE or pre-activate it and move around and still get some use out of them. Like Photon Seekers. Detonator could get the same effect, I think. Otherwise, make its Recharge lower and have it give some hefty debuffs, not only raw damage, so that you can sacrifice a henchman and turn a battle... an AoE explosion is good for clearing easy fights, but for easy fights do you really want to be sacrificing summonables all the time? And if it's a hard fight, then the damage probably isn't enough to turn it. And it's usually a hard fight because mobs spread everywhere and my henchmen are running in separate directions, so an AoE is likely to miss many of them. Some damage with a big -ToHit/-Damage debuff could turn a battle better than any damage lower than Overwhelming.

I had problems leveling both Fire/Fire and Fire/Rad, because neither of those secondaries help you survive (Rad's heal is clunky and undependable). I switched to a Fire/Psy and it leveled much more smoothly. If looking only at an end-game build, all three options put out very good damage. /Fire does it directly and with +Damage, /Rad uses Achilles Heel to help it catch up to the other two, and /Nrg has the Energy Release mechanism which is a bit clumsy but when it fires well it does a lot of damage in both single-target and AoE scenarios. So if looking only at the end game, I don't see that much difference in stats, it's more about how to play them: Fire is more ranged, Nrg definitely requires melee since Total Focus is the dependable Energy Stored mechanism, and Rad is mixed. For leveling up, I would personally run Fire/Nrg. Getting a lot of Force Feedback procs helps get perma-Dom earlier, the knockbacks and Stuns help with the low mitigation that Fire has before perma-Dom status, and damage is okay early and solid after you get Total Focus and can leverage Energy Release on Whirling Hands. Damage mitigation from your secondary is more relevant when leveling up than when running a level 50 perma-Dom build with good bonuses for Defense.

I got the blessing of the Gale 😉

Actually, back on Live, I think it was shown that a MM with fully slotted attacks will do better than their average Tier for every set... and for some sets, do better than their highest-damage Tier (albeit at a high Endurance cost). On Homecoming, with more damage available from damage procs, this is even moreso. My necro/sonic build will hit over 100 DPS from direct damage (before Incarnate abilities), although I doubt it can handle the Endurance burn for very long. No tier of pets anywhere does 100 DPS... granted, Necro is top for single-target DPS, but pretty much every MM except maybe Ninja can hit 50 DPS, and almost no pet tiers will break 50 DPS. Yes, taking and using MM attacks, especially with procs, will definitely make a noticeable increase in DPS. I mean, it's always going to be a higher DPS than your Tier 1s, and not have to worry as much about level differences. As long as you can sustain the drain, of course, which on MMs is more difficult.