Replacement

I meant to grab this in my first batch but apparently I missed your plus-sign for the multiquote! I was also thinking about Power Boost (and NOT Power Build Up) but ultimately thought I'd save it for a post down the line. Of course, then I was Disappeared for several hours and now I'm "on the back foot" or whatever the cliche is. I want to mention the trap of Assault/Support: unless it can also self-protect, it becomes very hard to make the melee attacks into optimal choices. I'm not saying it can't be done. Just that a designer needs to take serious care to avoid this. It's exactly as baked as I intended it. I intended some future discussion but, in keeping with my OP, thought it best to save "getting into the weeds" for further discussion with you lovely folk. But to get into it briefly: I'm of the opinion the mez protection powers and debuffs that lower enemy damage output should be enough to allow some skirmishing. Bolded part: You are either intentionally misusing my words or you skimmed it too fast to understand. Either way, not helpful. Just in case it helps, here is the relevant part: Your Tanking concept: Was the only one I could throw my support behind, despite it not being my cup of tea. You made a very sound argument for how it fit into the game, and I admit I had forgotten that aspect of it. Sorry for appearing to turn this into a "my idea vs yours" thing. There's a reason I put mine in a new thread, and it wasn't to start a fight. ...In fact, This is the reason I started a new thread. Look into literally any other melee/support thread and you're going to see this suggestion. My entire purpose is to avoid this. Those ideas are fine, but I have issues with them and so I wanted a place to intentionally explore not resorting to that. First off -- There are few things I'm more certain of than my assertion that players would play their Support half passively. This is the nature of melee, where the very nature of your survival makes your DPS doubly important. I could write an essay on this effect, but the short version is that optimal play matters more in the melee, and this results in too large of a range of performance (i.e. if you buff "low tier" sets too high, the "high tier" players are way overboard). Second -- you are correct. I misread. I had suggested Support powers provide damage stacks. You went the other direction and said Attack powers (and taunts) grant defensive stacks. I missed the "attacks" part, which absolutely changes that reading. This would certainly prevent them from spamming bubbles to stay alive, but it wouldn't really fix the notion that "duration buff sets > click-heavy sets." I had considered this direction a lot, in fact. But ultimately, I still saw the DPS-chasing at the other end of the rainbow. However, I also wonder about both (+Damage consolation for using Support abilities; +survival for using attacks, simply using Defiance as a base but applying to defense and/or resist instead of damage).

Hi folks! Thanks for the kind responses! I'm honestly impressed at how respectful everyone's been. So first, about the "clear idea" -- yes and no. It's more accurate to say "I was very distraught on how to convey the idea that 2 of the necessary components to the Inherent aren't actually +power the way they appear at first blush." I focused very hard on that, and I always aggressively trim my word counts down until it doesn't feel too much like a wall of text. And yeah, ultimately? I don't expect HC to come along and take a community members' ideas whole-cloth. I honestly think that sets a bad precedent (hey, you listened to so-and-so so I'm going to scream even louder), so I'd rather give them a framework that works. The elephant in the room: You want melee/support that can tank; I do not think this has a place in CoH. This incompatibility in our opinion on the topic is so fundamental that there is literally no way for you, specifically, to be happy with this take. And that is fine, I want to stress. I liked your version, and I can see why you liked the idea of Intercepting attacks. But I originally defined Interceptor as similar to the way a Defender is currently Defending allies without necessarily taking them. It encompasses debuffs to stop attacks at the source, defending allies with your effects, and bodily diving into the opposing force. Still a good fit, but yeah, I see how the name fits even better with your tanking iteration. As I said, I'm willing to relinquish it. About the toggle suppression -- this is not true of Support classes. Many offensive and location toggles have pretty long Cooldowns, so even getting a half-second stun is enough to break your Anchor. Mids' tells me it's only 8 seconds but if you've ever been in this situation, you know that feels more like a minute. Just in case this is helpful: the TL;DR is that I'm attempting "as straight a port as possible" and I'm using mechanical details to make it work on the frontline instead of resorting to adding several armor toggles. The exact goal is for it to feel as much like a straight port as possible. Responding to the bolded parts, in order of appearance: I'd love to, but there's enough debate about that as-is. It would certainly free up the "burden" on the passive. Something like Controller values, universally, wouldn't be so bad, but I think many in the community would vehemently disagree. Important: this isn't a damage buff for the sake of damage. This is a consolation prize for the DPS lost to using Support abilities. Without the damage buff, people would absolutely trend towards builds with as few clicks as possible. They would refuse in-combat Support entirely and build for between-fight buffs. This is asking for failure. If it instead adds defensive benefits, it creates strange incentive structures ("Let me spam my aoe party bubble every 4 seconds for my personal inherent defense") that ultimately get in the way of the experience. Additionally, it's weird with sets that are already adding Defense. Thanks, I meant to call that out and I'll edit it into my "ignore this set on the first pass" list. Until "reverse Repel" is proven tech, stuff like this is hard. Yeah, definitely cannot wait until level 44 to get a mez toggle. In fact, I'll make the sweeping declaration that no melee can function after 20 without mez protection to some degree. Especially if they have offensive toggles that could be dropping.

Hey, it's been like an entire week since we discussed this! Now, when I say "Minimalist" I mean "does not create entire new powerset categories." Design Philosophy No armor set bastardization. Or as little as humanly possible. Strong reliance on tweaking some powers within sets instead. Each Support set should usually have 8/9ths the same names as the Defender versions. Open-ended. Details not specifically nailed down are typically done so on purpose because if you think you can create an entire, perfectly-balanced AT on paper without in-game testing, you're off your rocker. Obviously, I still like feedback! Just know that a post that says "sounds OP" isn't that helpful. Tell me where changes make sense, but remember that the goal is a frame that could go to Test. Universal Change: Suppress all toggles! (wishful thinking) Suppress all toggles while mezzed (including offensive) instead of dropping them! This is something I'd like to see across the whole game, not just for this AT. However, if it's too much, then we should consider it part of the Inherent (even though I believe it would technically be a quality of their powers). Naturally, running out of stamina should still detoggle you. Meet The AT: Support/Melee I still like Interceptor for a name, and any time i need to refer to it, I will likely use this name. However, I'm amenable to other names. Why Support Primary? Because we only have 1 (same with melee secondary). Yes, that's a silly reason. But I'm designing it like this because I don't think it ultimately matters at this "not a realistic dream" stage. We would discover what flows best through testing testing testing. As a side effect, if we assume Corruptor-esque DPS, it will have a very unique progression curve (whereas Corruptors often eschew Support powers early on in favor of an attack chain, Interceptors would often load up on their offensive Support options and power pools early on) Support powers on the frontline The AT is enabled with 2 levels of Support changes: Team "bubbles" are changed to PBAOE, but retain the same power name. I have a plan to reign in defensive numbers being too dang big, which I will hit in a later section. A single power is removed and replaced with a thematically-similar Party Mez Resist power. I came to this conclusion when looking at Increase Density - here's a "bubble" mez protection. I like the idea, but it's actually a little too strong. The goal is to not only survive on the front line, but bring folks with you (such as blasters or crazy Fighting Pool Controllers), should still shut you down! I'm targeting the neighborhood of 3-4 points of mez protection, after AT modifiers. This should be somewhat proportionate to current coverage. E.g. Thermal and Kinetics will get good Mez Protection because they already excel there; Time and Dark would have some holes because their strengths are elsewhere. Essentially, I'm trying to grade what a set "offers" on a curve. Of course, any sets pushed over the top by this should get some numeric nerfs elsewhere. Example Power Swap Options: Dark Miasma - A few options I could see for customizing Dark Miasma enhanced Shadow Fall (e.g. Lengthening Shadows) that gains some Mez protection at the expense of some of its defensive stats Replacing either Black Hole or Dark Servant with a more traditional Click buff. Thermal Radiation: Actually, aside from bringing the Mez protection values in line, this set needs little more than the pbaoe bubble change. Sets I would avoid proliferating right away Unsurprisingly: Empathy. But I would also hold off on Force Field, Sonic, Storm, and Trick Arrow. FF and Storm are both being held off due to their Knockback powers (though I think Storm is easier to fix). Scales and Invisible Nerfs At least some part of this class' Inherent would end up "patching holes" instead of providing power. On paper, it will look like a strong passive, but it's really just the debt paid for other hits the AT must take. I will explain this in 2 parts: 1) I am proposing very low AT modifiers for team buffs, with part of their Inherent being a large boost to these stats when affecting others. For example, if they have the same modifiers as a Mastermind, their Deflection Shield would provide only 11.25% to Self. If their passive buffed this by 30%, that would push it to nearly Defender levels (unenhanced) for your allies. Another cool thing is that, since this would stack linearly with enhancements, your buffs on this AT would follow a different curve than other Support classes. 2) I also think it will need a damage buff mechanic to offset time spent on Support. I would propose that all their Support powers give a short damage buff based entirely on the power's Activation Time (and no other stat such as recharge). I suggest the duration of the attack buff persisting for 4 seconds, though it could creep as high as 7 seconds if needed (for reference, Defiance is usually 9-10 seconds). Let's bring that together Having "+30-50% ally buff power" looks like a potent benefit in an Inherent, but remember this only checks out because we're not just giving them Corruptor values out the gate. Spending time using your Support abilities actively means suspending DPS. It would be disastrous to incentive "passive Support powers only" so we need something like this to give their DPS dips a corresponding peak. Ugh. Inherent. Though this would play and be understood simply enough, this sure doesn't feel very "minimal" by this point. We're looking at an inherent that needs to: Convey that your toggles suppress instead of drop (unless we make that systemic, which would be excellent) Cover an allied power boost (not actually a buff; it's actually just a band-aid for our ridiculously low team buff multiplier) Cover that non-damaging Support powers temporarily raise your damage (again, less of a buff and more of a necessary mechanism to stop players from racing to the bottom of bland passive-only builds) Sample Inherent - Protector: You persevere through even the hardest efforts to sway you from your goals, and your offensive toggles suppress instead of drop when affected by negative statuses. Your dedication strengthens any buffing abilities when used on allies, which also invigorates you and provides a moderate damage bonus on your next attack. This should give us a good start! I think it would underperform, but it would perform and that would be enough to get it off the ground and tweak it from there. Oh Yeah: Melee Attacks and Confront So first off, I would suggest basing their melee sets off of the Brute versions. These tend to have the least amount of weird mechanics on them (they just universally need Fury mechanics removed). But what about Taunt? No clue! That's an open power and I would suggest not wasting it on Taunt. EDITS: TL;DR: I'm attempting "as straight a port as possible" of the Support sets and I'm using mechanical details to make it work on the frontline instead of resorting to adding several armor toggles. The exact goal is for it to feel as much like a straight port as possible.

I assumed all the clone did was set all your Color 1s = Color 2 and all your Color 2s = Color 1. Are there any other deets actually in-game that change? (I noticed you did goggles up/down, but I'm assuming that's some creative license on your part).

Update: egg on my face. It turns out most DA toggles already have .21/sec end cost. I really thought they had the oldschool costs (.26, like SR -- Cloak of Darkness also has a .26 cost, but I can understand that given the utility it brings). Ok so this does leave me scratching my heads some, because I'm not really sure I'd appreciate them coming down under that point. Though the expensive toggles could each come down some (Death Shrould and Cloak of Fear from .52 => .39, for example).

Forget the slippery slopes, let's go full waterslide up in here, huh? I don't think it's an unreasonable viewpoint -- every other set gets to. If Dark Armor is intended to be different, then the individual toggles should become strong enough to justify it. Instead, they're... not really any better than those cheap Shield Defense toggles. As for the rest... yeah I'm not going to get into that. I think you know as well as I do that your hype is stronk. I will say, though, that you actually bring to mind what I think would be a cool change for Dark Armor: changing some of their toggles to Clicks that give duration buffs. At least then I wouldn't feel like i'm working against myself when I spend a power selection on Death Shroud and Cloak of Fear.

They're harder on burden of knowledge than scarcity

This would be news to me. Could you (or anyone!) elaborate on how to make crazy ppm proc monsters? Is it relying on certain power interactions, like gaussians Tactics in a full party? My understanding was, the peak came with the "buzzsaw" builds, mostly cycling the t1 and t2 attacks and such, because constant % chance to proc for static damage (completely detached from the cooldown of the power that it processed from) is best abused by firing off that power as frequently as possible. It seems to me the whole point of PPM is to be game-proof. Nowadays, I've been operating under the assumption that procs are mostly a mechanism to get around weak AT modifiers or numbers in a power. EDIT: I just read the subject line of this thread again and realized how entirely off topic this is. Sorry for that.

I have a strong enough dislike of required IOs for a set to function, but this brings the set to two specific and unique IOs just to do its core job: survive. And it's a silly restriction to enforce, when better toggles are around with lower end costs (shield, ea, bio), and as I mentioned above, would result in zero abusive new builds.

I mean, you left out that Rularuu was a travel agent.

My hardest has been just about every Dominator I've tried to make. More attacks than time to use them, and if I can't use my melee powers, I consider the character a failure.

This is seriously all I'd like to see for right now. While other sets likely need more love, they are a lot more work than this. Having played with some of these sets like Bio and Shield, I feel like this is a simple, low-danger change. There is literally no coh combo sitting around gathering dust with players saying "this would be the best, most fotm build in the game! But it's ruined by DA's ongoing end costs!" <Tiny impotent fist shake> I mean, unless we want to go through and nerf the end costs of those other armor sets. That seems less popular but yeah that's an option too.

Even with opacity all the way down, pretty sure maps still are not transparent (though you can see the tiny border elements are). It's like, even if your browser was set to be transparent, this site would still load with a dark blue background.

I've always been irrationally annoyed with the Brute version of Regen getting a simple taunt aura. It and Super Reflexes both got very tacked on taunt effects on existing toggles while literally every other taunt toggle has an additional aesthetic effect (enemy damage or debuffs, stat scaling based on nearby enemies - something in the fiction addressing the external component.) Ok so that's all to say: I think it would be neat if Brute Regen received an absorb shield with strength based on nearby enemies. See if that improves the anecdotes like what @Heraclea laid out. It would naturally scale with the alpha, without much effect on AV fights. If that tests well, I think it'd make for a cool tanker version. And I'll eyeball that stupid SR taunt aura another day.

Ah... Hmm.

I question just how much of this is post-Snap. My understanding is Bio Amor is just Too Much™. This is the first credible case I've ever read of a Sentinel being anything but "slightly-but-not-criminally underperforming." -- To elaborate on Tanks -- I've always loved Tankers but Live taught me not to expect to enjoy them. I'm now thrilled about them being a bit easier on my low-man settings, even though (perhaps ironically) the first thing I've done has been to focus on a tanker who has yet to really reap any of the tanker buff's benefits (my shield/kin, which only gets aoe at the back end of its career and I'm nowhere near that).

I think it's just about as far-fetched, but this has me thinking: Step 1: fix and re-enable leveling pacts Step 2: add a method to enter into one with your own character (a /alt_invite mechanism) Step 3: add a method to change between them without logging out. I'm not saying any of this would be smart for game balance (it wouldn't even be worth the effort if it reset cooldowns the way changing your build does), but it's an interesting thought for something like this. Something like a -2 level shift while "entangled" perhaps. Could function for concept duos, alternate forms, or simply changing Batman from his Stalker mode to his Scrapper mode.

Ok, so this might help explain my perspective: Minimal FX options - Bio Armor Dark Armor Ice Armor Invulnerability Ninjutsu Regeneration Super Reflexes Willpower And several Epic sets ....All have minimalFX options. I call particular attention to the first 2 in that list. Division of Dev labor: Since you do not know this either, it is not a talking point. --- From my computer chair, it seemed like your stance was shutting down options for others just because it's not what you would want for your characters, and then a bunch of attempts to move the goalpost (like invoking dev resources) to "win" the argument. If it seems like I've been reactionary, this is why. I understand you aren't a mustache-twirling villain, out to suppress the freedom fighters and do-gooders. I generally tend to disagree with your opinion but I've also seen in threads that you mean well (not a troll) and are not malicious. I have a healthy respect for people who I disagree with and i'm happy to extend that to you. So, my apologies there.

I'm of a mind that we only have so many power picks, and that numbers could be tuned low enough to be "nice" without being "necessary." But this is a fair point and a good warning.

Well and good on paper. In practice, I think anyone traveling to a mission (unless you're really boring and SJ along the roads only, in which case you really should be enjoying a different travel power) is going to see their landing height change very frequently. Emphasis moment: minuscule and nonthreatening. I lead out the gate with the knowledge that this idea of mine first came about out of a petty annoyance. The fact that it'd be a good buff to a really weak All-In Pool Power just happens to be a nice benefit.

Um... I don't know how to say this without just seeming aggressive but... you're wrong. You're wrong that toggles need a visual indicator (MinimalFX exists on a lot of sets, and is typically suppressed in PvP for good reason). You're wrong that working on Stone Melee would at all impact the ability to implement a MinimalFX (obviously, HC folks wear several different hats, but typically this is a difference between your "Art" guy and your "Powers" guy). You're wrong to assert that stealth must = transparency. Like I said above, fiction is full of Unnoticeables. If you'd like an example of having a character like this that actually sticks around for several hundred thousand words, this is explored very thoroughly as one of the protagonists in the incredible (-y depressing shit-show) Web Serial about Superheroes Ruining Everything™, Worm.

Entirely because it annoys me that Super Jump is the one travel power that often deals damage to me (even though it's minuscule and nonthreatening), I've been thinking this past year that it'd be excellent if Acrobatics had a small recurring +absorb shield - like 40-50% the strength of a Blaster Sustain shield.

Yes.

Just want to say: "All stealth powers are toggles" was probably the worst design directive in the entire game. The only reason I don't enjoy my Stalkers is because I can't see them. Probably because unlike @Steampunkette, I'll never remember to turn Hide off. Ok, that aside out of the way, I'd like to hear a lot less "visible invisibility" as a term. "Self-only" isn't good enough. Visible but Undetected is what's being asked for, and that's supported about a billion times in fiction.

There might be hope for a pantaloon-esque upgrade for our shamanic and cyclopean friends. Note what Homecoming staff have said about a similar issue.