Replacement

@r0y Good to hear the flip side of these sets. Too many people liking them just how they were is a sign something might become overwhelmingly too popular. Still, we have every other teleport for recovery mechanisms (the hover period in teleport, the flight of mystic flight). Jaunt's snappy instant-port is exactly what many of us wanted. That said, no matter how incredibly great it feels, nothing will dethrone Hasten, a known distortion of the entire rest of the game. In the context of Experimentation... I think that's just fine. I have 2 open questions: #1: Will we ever see customizations for the vials themselves? Right now they are always the same (and seem to get progressively greener the further into the tree you go) and ignore custom colors. This isn't a "need" of course, and I certainly wouldn't halt launch for it. But I'm curious to know if this is something that could gain tinting down the road or if that's a "tip of the iceberg" kind of deal. #2: What was the intent behind the changes to Toxic Dart in this build? Was it too strong before, relative to other Pool attack powers?

I'll try to make the point without any examples at all. It's clear they're just getting in the way. Statement #1: Given any power, you can tune it with disadvantages such as crashes and long cooldowns. Statement #2: Assuming #1 is true, I submit that no matter how extreme the power is, you can attach enough disadvantages to make it a bad idea. You can always escalate the drawbacks until it's just not even worth it anymore. Statement #3: I submit this is what you are seeing in page 1 of this thread. Having poor uptime is ok... until it hits the level where it is not. Having a crash is ok... until it outweighs the benefits to too large a degree. What's really interesting about this thread is it's forcing us to view T9s as an opportunity cost against T1 and 2 armor powers. Unstoppable looks fine when you assume it's layered onto all your other goodies. When you stop and look at it in a vacuum, compared to Temp Invulnerability or even Resist Physical Damage... Unstoppable just doesn't look like it's worth the price of the buy-in.

@Leo_G to go to our mutual interest of FFXI, you are aware that they eventually changed Last Resort's duration from 30 seconds to 3 minutes? It still has the crippling defense penalty, but at some point they faced the facts that a move that is a full-strength provoke, a huge penalty to your survival, and has a 5-minute cooldown... all of that was just not worth the meager benefits. This is a good example of what I mean: I'm all for drawbacks, I'm all for good tactical decisions. But that needs to at least be reflective of the benefits. I don't think that's asking too much.

Like I said in Post #2 of this thread, I think this idea is actually awesome, but it's incompatible with the game as it stands now. But that's not really our beef. I am using an "obtuse" comparison to try to show you how extreme your perspective is. If "brawl for winning" is obtuse, then you have to admit that there exists something on the other end of the spectrum that is equally, insanely unreasonable. "Using powers responsibly" can be achieved without a 5% up-time. If a 10 HP heal on a 20 minute cooldown is stupid, then what tuning can you make for it to be better? 10 HP per 10 minutes? 100 HP per 10 minutes? 200 HP per 10 minutes? This is the reality of balance: it's never perfect, but there are extremes that don't make sense. Short version: You can definitely live through a crash. At what point is it not worth the effort and power selection? Bonus game! I underlined all the parts in your post that attempt to project flawed thinking onto anyone who disagrees with you. Here's a really great example I encourage anyone to read that shows a great job of breaking down spotting when someone is telling you how to think through framing instead of content: https://www.cgpgrey.com/blog/why-tv-news-is-a-waste-of-human-effort-one-video-is-worth-a-trillion-dollars

You "can" win fights with just brawl, too. No one is enjoying doing so, though. The crashes are still mostly stupid or too strong for the benefit. I still would love to play this on a server, but some adjustments would be necessary for the fun factor. Either removing crashes or lowering cooldowns (or reducing both). All of this is a great thought experiment, but I think there's a deeper truth and community desire: cottage-wrecking most of the t9s that are obsolete by the sets they live on. No one wants a panic button that gives them 5% extra survivability and a crash at the end.

It steps into Kinetics territory, but if we're dispensing of the cottage rule, I could see sheathing allies in force fields that augment their attacks. So +damage instead of -resist. +Damage (smashing, lethal) if you want to be a bit realistic (you can encase a bullet, but a fire bolt..?) EDIT: I realize that doesn't actually break the cottage rule if just added onto existing defense bubbles. But it's still a pretty big thematic departure.

I'd kinda like to see it lean into the identity of needing to be in the thick of things. Like Trickshooter's suggestion, I'd like to see Antidote splash, including the caster. The effects don't need to be strong -- I think even Mag 3 protections are enough to avoid some basic mezzes? That and, if needed, I could see adding a defense bonus to using one of the powers as you surround yourself in a haze that helps to conceal your actual position. It would also make sense to splash Alkaloid, even if non-primary targets just got a +Regen or HoT instead of a direct heal. It's also weird to me that they have a -Regen power, and that it's literally 1/20th the strength of Traps' -Regen power. I cannot think of a set more fitting of Regen-Wrecking. Other than that, just minor tuning. Reducing the casting time for Weaken is a big one for me.

I had this big thing typed up about how to make it the same now but give it a late-bloom mechanic for end game but... Honestly, any amount of defense bubbles are an overkill amount for a def-based Tanker that has enhancements. You don't need min/maxed set pieces to see these effects, as low as the 30s. I should mention though, those of us without a lot of FF experience still tend to just think about it as a +defense set and ignore all the (easy to screw up) utility the other set's powers offer, which makes it difficult to size up. I think if it ended up with a +absorb power, it should provide only small amounts of +absorb per tick, but a somewhat larger +max absorb. This would make it so the less frequently you get hit, the more benefit the Absorb is. This way characters who bring a bit of their own defense to the table get a bit extra out of it, instead of silently wishing they had invited a Kin instead.

Corrected, and thank you for pointing out the oversight.

I considered adding a 3rd question of "Which set is overperforming?" with Kinetics as the only option as a joke, but I've decided that will create too much actual rancor. I saw Bartacus' Poison thread and it reminded me that I've been wanting to see our community self-organize and prioritize which things are kind of in the worst spots, and hopefully the developers can use this to find a decent cross-section of work-to-reward ratio (as I say at least once every 48 hours, Traps would be mightily improved by simply playing with recharges and durations). I mean, perhaps Trick Arrow really is garbage (I honestly wouldn't know. I've only looked at it in Mids'), but if another set is similarly looked down upon and yet is very easy to fix, that's something we should probably try to bubble to the surface. So anyway, vote away, and feel free to post specific minor tweaks to sets -- large-scale changes, I beg you create standalone threads for, like the aforementioned Bartacus Poison thread.

Sorry for that. I actually really value your opinion, but I got a bit aggressive when I saw what read to me like making a monolith of anyone that accepts nerfs, while ignoring all the valid reasons for them.

I do want to mention: target-less is so fantastic on Dominator. I so frequently finding myself needing a mez target that isn't necessarily my attack targets, so having the cone and pbaoe both wired up not to take my focus is quite the blessing.

This thread title threw me for a loop. (Narrator voice) In a WORLD where everyone punches One man has the courage... To punch their lights out.

This is, indeed, in the game. As an example, Dominator Martial Assault works this way. There are times for both. Consider: keeping an enemy in front of you targeted, then Combat Jumping over their heads to land on the far side, putting 2 other minions between you and the original target. With a Facing-based cone, you need to spin around first. With a target-based cone, you can fire it off while still looking the wrong way, not even landed yet, and you'll still pull off the attack correctly.

A valid concern, but never the actual objective of even halfway-decent developers. I actually think early CoH developers did have some of these tendencies, but those days are long gone. In an ideal world, with a healthy game, you would find your sets that are close to the top of the heap, that feel fun to play, sayyyy 2nd or 3rd best. Then you would bring up most sets to that point and assess if the set or sets above it are far enough out of line to get hemmed in. I guess this is ultimately why, despite being a "nerfherder," I still voted to bring up underperforming sets first. I'd rather get all the D+ sets up to a solid B rating than think about all the entitlement tears that will wash out even simple, minor numerical nerfs.

As an aside to this thread, I think it's important to point out that balance even exists in single player games. If you give your main character a stealth option, but it strongly reduces your character's xp gains, isn't applicable in boss fights, and is overall less effective than "front door" builds, then you've really only set up a silly challenge mode, as opposed to creating build diversity. I mention this because it's just a fact about how most of us think. Even single player, we (most players) tend towards obviously good character build decisions. This means the very existence of overtuned sets diminish other sets.

This thread was nice and mellow until you had to go and be sensationalist about it. Now it's going down the same rabbit hole as always. Look, you just really proved the point of OP's question #2. This question isn't about "things that are clearly OP." It's about how YOU will feel if they decide a combo you like needs brought in line. TW was the perfect set to reference here, since the "nerf TW" thread was so polarizing. And so I question: how WILL you react? If they show their math and prove it was making other options obsolete, or otherwise diminishing the rest of the game, are you even going to be capable of objective feedback such as "this diminishes the fun factor of the set?" Or are you going to ignore facts, and scream "nerfherders?"

I went searching for @Tyrannical's thread to link here but I saw something shiny... I second the idea of controls as a secondary effect. I think some chances for knock up and some high/guaranteed chances for short duration stuns would be safe.

Not being a proc expert by any stretch, I can say what I would like to see: A simplified formula, more like the original flat % chance, but with a scaling bonus based on charge. Important differences: Still naturally skews towards lower recharges Bonus rate based on total recharge. Global recharge is already king. No reason to give it special treatment here. Each proc adds a status to your character (probably 10-15 seconds). While you have the status, proc chance for that enhancement is lowered. Also, doesn't the game already have mechanisms where damage dealt is scaled to current recharge? Seems like that would be even easier. No matter what, I think they still need to kill the global recharge darling. And look where that got us. (Sorry, I saw a chance to feel clever and I took it. I regret everything!)

I wonder if there exists a technical way to copy mission-sized chunks of city maps into the AE editor. I'm not familiar with the map tools, but it seems like that would be the go between. Copy chunk of city into AE > make your edits > create method to overlay your AE event as a phased instance in the real world. I'm just musing, here. I don't think this is realistic. First step is still a way to run AE missions without the framing of "it's all pretend" wrecking your groove.

I'm honestly a bit disappointed in myself for voting buffs instead of nerfs but... There are some serious low performers out there, and many of the obvious improvements aren't even controversial. Still, let it be known that I think have-it-all Brutes and AE farms killed this game once already.

Nah. Ms. Liberty stays in AP -- there are quests sending you to talk to her. Put someone else in her place in Fort Trident.

I suggest not grabbing 2 from this list: Controller Tanker You can have 1 of these. but if you have 2x of them, or 1 of each, it will go very slow. I understand 2x Controller duos can become very cool later on... but these combos suck until... like 40? Maybe as low as 32? When you're duoing, you're in it for the long-haul, so I suggest things that are fun early on. Duos I've enjoyed: Blapper + any AT with a Support set (I think controller would be best) Tanker + blaster/stalker with someone running Leadership Tanker/Brute + Corruptor I keep wanting to run a Dominator in a duo or trio, but I always end up dead weight.

I mean... that's the plan with Gadgetry pool. Before Origin pools came and muddied the waters with their "deniable P2W power levels," I'd say Afterburner was actually a really good design direction. Players cried for faster flight on the old forums for years, but they couldn't out-logic the fact that Fly was already worlds away from the pure utility offered by other Travel options. Making them spend another power pick, but also giving it indirect utility (defense, IO boat) seems like the best way to handle it. You know, it occurs to me that it probably would have been better to simply add a code chunk to Hover to have it no longer be mutually exclusive to Flight, and to apply +Max fly speed if you enable both. That would get you your 2 power selections, still have your rider utility and minor combat boons.

This is one of those suggestions I put firmly in the territory of "I would be all for this if we were making big changes and starting over." We're far enough in, with expectations being what they are, that it's not realistic. I've mentioned it before... if we had Leagues, like Path of Exile... I would absolutely love this as a league gimmick (and fold it into the base servers if it were received well enough). Showing your age, buddy! They changed them to "1-hour" abilities like a decade ago. ...Though we still call them "using my 2-hour" and we roll our eyes at anyone in the group who doesn't know what we're talking about.