Monos King

I think this is always an option for those that are very interested in development, like perhaps the CB testers, but there is probably a comfortable divide between the typical player and those that want to be highly invested in the development of the game itself. After all, most players aren't even on the forums. Given expanded opportunity though, I know many of us would keep ardent eyes on the games inner-workings.

My apologies, I would just prefer this thread stay on topic. I thought that since I did in fact say what you quoted, it would be very obvious that when I said "I didn't say any of that" it meant that you misinterpreted my meaning and motive. I hope it is now clear. My question still remains for if you have an interest in the discussion.

What do you think of the idea of revamping certain NPCs to encourage different group tactics?

This is true. At the end of the day, I'd like to both find common ground understanding the issue, and then narrow down on what could be done about it that doesn't upset one side while also appealing to the other. The one recurring resolution is simply new hard content with new rewards, which is a great idea, although doesn't attenuate everything that is currently under scrutiny. I don't believe progression is arbitrary, though. I think there are enough sources of progression to come to a concrete definition of what it looks like. Whether or not that definition of progression is obsolete within city of heroes, though, is another matter.

City of Heroes is practically timeless because of all of its content and devoted community. I think no matter what happens, there will be a lot of people that are totally happy to just be playing. Even so, that isn't the case for everyone. If there were a way to continue to appeal to both those who enjoy things the way they are, while also creating a reinvigorated route for progress that both could appreciate, I'd like to find it. Unfortunately, not everyone feels as though things are fine as they are now. That's why I'm entertaining the discussion, and trying to define the divide.

That's probably the end of the matter therein; "CoH just isn't built like that". If so it's a lamentable truth. However, as I expressed earlier, the tedium created an illusion of difficulty that lead to actual difficulty - the fact that there was a much smaller percentage of max IO'd gods meant the greater majority of teams weren't stomping content to the point difficulty was mythic. What's important to note is that the content without IOs wasn't difficult because the enemies had extreme stats by comparison or anything, but because strategies were necessary to overcome what they did have. Malta enjoyed a devoted order of killing starting with sappers, tsoo was dealing with sorcerers (usually from distance), Devouring Earth you deal with the pet spawners, etc. So if we're brainstorming means to generate "true" difficulty that reflected the general state before IO builds were entirely widespread, it would be in reducing the rate of progression (out of the question) and introducing advanced tactics for overcoming enemies. It would be revamping some enemy groups, as well. In that manner, progression would require thought, although not necessarily high investment.

I agree with everything you've said, but I take a different conclusion from it. The fact that there is an easy route makes the game easy, and give the concerns of "games too easy" folks validity. Dominant Strategy, and all that. Games that don't have an "easy mode" route of progression can't be called easy. Since we're talking routes and modes, let's use an example. If you look at another genre, like storymode console/PC games for instance, there are easy and hard modes. When you take something like Cuphead... There are difficulty levels. This game is widely considered to be very difficult though. Why? Because even the easiest setting, is quite challenging. Those that complete that and are now looking for more challenges might begin taking on harder difficulties, putting limitations, enduring longer encounters. But since even the starting level has real rigor, the game is considered "challenging." We don't have that here. In CoH, Easy Mode takes you straight to the end, is exactly as effortless as is eponymous, and will simply give you everything you need progression wise. And in CoH, hardmode (when you create it for yourself) gives you pretty much nothing. There is no benefit to taking the harder route, you can do everything you want without it, thus most will, and actually have to go out of your way to seek challenge during progression. And then, once almighty, you can come down and crush what would've been apart of the "hard route". So, the game is easy. Again, that's not to say that's bad - a lot of people appreciate this change in their increased age and busyness, but I would like to demonstrate it as truth.

fffff This is the big concern of the "games too easy" crowd. It can be divided into reward chasers and role-players. When everyone around them is exceptionally powerful, the role players feel as though their role is muted. Without feeling they bring something to the team, there isn't much reason to team, as it isn't fun for them anymore. And in regards to those reward chasers who desire to feel as if they have "earned" something, they will be forever starved, because progression to each meaningful reward was essentially guaranteed. Refer to the analogy above in regards to running with severe limitations. This isn't limited to Power Progression either; since homecoming began XP is offered extremely quickly, costume pieces are auto unlocked, emotes are default granted, etc. This is a boon for some, who have always disliked grinding. But it's also bad for others, who will quickly see it as boring. There are precious few true "challenges" for those that have reach the readily accessible power ceiling. And, of those few challenges, none offer real reward (again unless you are a badge chaser or obsessive soloer). As a result, there is a part of the community who do not feel there is worth in majority of content, for they cruise along through the ranks of power easily on their own, and have no enjoyment from teaming because they feel useless in them.

Correct. The process of getting to the point of being that powerful is easy, which is what's being examined here. It definitely would be challenging to alter it satisfyingly, so again I'm left with the whole "game just needs better end game content to amuse our hyper gods" route that people have suggested for a little while now. I am of the opinion that alternative means of high power would be cool too though. You brought up the same concern someone did a far while back, and they suggested some sort of like tech breakthrough/culmination for their technology characters. Looking at the Praetorian villains, they are all narratively WAY more powerful than their primal counterparts, and it feels like each of them are villains that have already completed their master plans. If there were an alternative route detached and totally exclusive from incarnates, which I'll just call "Breakthrough" that was meant to imply your character had achieved their greatest goals and was now far more capable as a result (like the villain that built their doom ray or something" that would be cool. Maybe that could come with new content, it might be weaker but more flexible than incarnates (and have more options), but it'd take time to implement. If it was weaker but "funnner" than incarnates, that could offset some of the ostensible ease from the game.

I definitely didn't say any of that, but it's good to see how others feel about the topic of difficulty.

I don't disagree with the assessment the game is too easy, but I'm mostly indifferent to it at this stage. However, it's been introduced as a problem, so mapping out the source of it I find to be beneficial. As for your reply snarky, that goes back to the very core of my OP and the matter of progression. Whether or not you can find something that challenges you personally doesn't change the fact progression is extremely easy in this game. You could give me 10 elite boss pets, and I would still fail to solo nightmare mode Katie Hannon. I can be the king of soloing, and soloing Magisterium will still be too much for my best efforts. But I don't need to solo Magisterium. And I don't need to solo Katie Hannon. I certainly don't need to unslot all of my incarnates, move onto nightmare settings, or run on SOs. I already have all the god power and can crush any other content that would actually yield rewards. It can't be argued "the game isn't easy, you're just not looking" because no one can solo an end game incarnate trial, for instance. Challenge exists if you make it, sure, but whether or not that challenge exists is completely irrelevant when it's always optional. Therein lies the big misconception between two sides, those that claim the game is easy are saying progression is easy, not just encounters. "What if you go seek every challenging encounter to level up, then you can personally feel it's difficult!" Sure, if you want to go solo. If you want to team, then as a result of that optional difficulty, you'll only find congregations of raid-killers running pretty TFs, and naturally those that aren't almighty are left feeling absolutely unnecessary. "What if I say I only want to team with the underpowered?" Self limitation doesn't suddenly change the reality of the games state, the need to do so just reaffirms it. The ability to simulate difficulty doesn't make the game difficult. And who actually wants to limit themselves of the abilities they have? People would rather test the limits of their strength for challenges, not cripple themselves. You don't see runners racing each other with stilts because they've gotten so fast - they train and undertake greater challenges. When progression defines difficulty, a game extremely easy to progress through is just extremely easy. Is that actually a problem? Depends who is asked. I personally enjoy working for things. I don't believe there is satisfaction in rewards that are guaranteed. But at the same time, I enjoy quickly building PvP builds, and managing those restrictions is another worthwhile challenge for me. So even while the game is too easy, I'm not bothered. Going with the runner analogy of taking bigger challenges, I still believe the best way to solve this sort of problem is to work on creating new, harder content to stimulate those who have it all. But we shouldn't pretend this aged game isn't as easy as it is.

Similar comment, I'll leave this here. Tedium certainly isn't difficulty. The fact that the process itself is only a matter of tedium, is part of what makes it so easy. I think we're pretty much agreeing there. The former barrier of tedium did, however, still go leaps in preventing the situation we have now, where some express the game is "too easy".

@Snarky @ZorkNemesis You're both welcome to bring your discussion to DMs. Let's maintain topic.

Related thread

Right. And I have the same conclusion. (That leaves us with the point of this thread, which is why I moved my comment.) Back on topic, -Accuracy (not -to hit) is actually a devastating debuff, and I'd love to see it getting applied somewhere.

As I notes in the post before, grinding is in fact just tedious. But the result of getting those IOs is what removes difficulty. It being quick and easy created a saturation of immensely powerful characters running about, which is the source of the concern to begin with. If everyone is a soloing powerhouse, then most of the game is going to seem easy, roles will be expendable, and activities monotonous. Grinding wasn't a desired option for everyone. So the barrier that maintained the "difficulty" was sort of an illusion for those who were invested, but the mirage maintained the difficulty nonetheless. As for incarnates, you actually had to overcome trials to really level them up (soloing DA arcs was so slow to get the good incarnates it was barely an option and more of an accoutrement) and thus it was somewhat difficult. Keep in mind I'm not saying the game being so easy is bad necessarily...just to show that it is definitely and objectively easy from a progression stand point, which is how a games difficulty is pretty much always defined.

My post is now here. But also, your reply addresses challenge, as I defined it, and not difficulty. It doesn't matter if leveling can be challenging, because it doesn't need to be. Anyone who doesn't want it to be can just skip over what mightve been difficult and become godly, and then sit at the top with few existing challenges. And even if there is a challenge for them, it doesn't matter, because they've already got all the power they would have from overcoming said challenge. It would matter only to someone like a badger whether or not they could complete it.

Topics in Suggestions and Feedback convinced me to focus in on this apparent issue. So here it is, in an attempt to consolidate concerns further. We need to divide the terms "challenge" and "difficulty" so we're all on the same page. Whether or not there is a challenge for omega OP characters is irrelevant. The issue is there is no challenge at all to reaching said omega OP status. Progression is not difficult to do, and that's what is meant when I at the very least say the game itself is too easy. Here are some obstacles commonly pointed that are deployed to create challenge, which as a result people have attachment to. 1) Countering different enemies abilities 2) Encountering large amounts of enemies 3) Learning how to deploy the abilities of the character itself 4) Learning how to best enhance 5) Navigating certain maps 6) Learning the mechanics of certain missions 7) Learning how to optimally adhere to the methods of overcoming certain trials/TFs There are a few more, but those core elements are what help to create challenge, but not difficulty. This is because: Ways to circumvent all but 3-5 1) Being unkillable 2) Killing everything before you can be killed And getting to those two stages holds no difficulty whatsoever. Whereas the methods to make progression more difficult are: 1) Make IOs less accessible 2) Make incarnates less accessible 3) Make leveling more difficult (essentially increasing challenge as previously defined) This is only natural, as incarnates and enhancements are the closest thing to gear in this game. There are different ways to play this game, and if you avoid some of the more challenging content, it is popularly believed you can't call the game "easy". But none of the above obstacles actually hinder progression, i.e. getting to the point of high OPness. Challenge and difficulty should be divided because one is reliant on accessibility of power and another hinges on the results of how power is deployed. The game used to have an inherent balancing factor, which made progression difficult (or at the least require investment) but didn't change the accessibility of challenge. This was how difficult it was to to acquire incarnates and IOs. The difficulty was in the tedium and rarity, however as a result, you didn't see teams running around with solo-all gods composing their entirety, which made the existing challenges greater by default. People still widely had their desired relevance in teams they would casually pick up, and the extremely invested would do their masterful speed runs at the exact same level of power they have now. In synopsis, the game itself is easy because progression to a point where challenges are non-existent is not difficult. The fact that there is, in fact, a stage where challenges are non-existent is not the issue. Unless we desire to again limit the accessibility of extreme power in some way, this issue will never be resolved. I believe the absolute closest we can do is create new hyper difficult content for said OP gods, and hope they are all invested doing that so as to not trickle into the lesser level content. Seeing as IOs will however still be a factor, that will be a serrated solution at best. Thoughts?

Definitely need to keep Knight Errant.

The Only Thing They Fear Is You

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Deflated_Ego:_Chance_for_Recovery_Debuff https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Commanding_Presence:_Taunt/Placate_Resist Just saying. Carry on,

You should probably sit back, take a drink, and think about why multiple people are saying what they are rather than flaunt your ability to google. You're fixed to your opinion, and it's making you narrow minded. Even I, who is decidedly in the camp procs are ok (to go back to the main topic), am seeing you make no good point for our side. It's been said before, I'll say it again for posterity's sake. There can't be one optimal build. Because when you are playing this game, the goal is not to do one thing, 24/7. You might need to escape, you might need to survive strays, you might need to maintain your recharge or endurance. So when you build, you will have a specific goal in mind. And that objective is what decides what is OPTIMAL. The closest thing to that, however, would be becoming a well rounded ace which has achieved total self-sufficiency This is because the definition of said sufficiency is "needing no outside help in satisfying one's basic needs", which in this case would be being able to drop your character into various environments and be able to succeed in all of them. Alone. Because degrees of success are what determine what is optimal, having the largest range of success over a panel of activities would by definition make it MORE optimal. Which is the exact opposite of a team play build. Dodging their remarks won't help this conversation progress to where it should be. Let's get this back on track, namely whether or not proc building offers some sort of displacing advantage, and quantifying it.

I think you're misunderstanding people's purposes here. No one is being elitist here, just passionately exercising their efficacy. This forum is for suggestions and feedback, and a lot of people have observations and objections on how procs have altered the very nature of how the game is played - to varying degrees in different spheres. As for "changing how people want to play" literally any gameplay related discussion will have that impact in some way, this is an inevitable impact of game development, and you just have the option to influence that process here. Game balance is an inexorable part of games. Unless you want to shoot the ceiling like some servers, you'll have to acknowledge that discussions about it are valid. Even when the way "others want to play" is just enjoying anything that makes them unavoidably over perform.