Force Redux

Terrible news 😞😞😞

Nice thing about COH, folks find a lot of uses for things you might otherwise overlook. 🙂

This still remains my go-to guide for my new 50s with their new Alpha ability. Great guide.

You are very welcome 🙂

Doc, its interesting to run into a different playstyle from my own, I'm glad you shared that. I definitely think if you are doing all right now, no need to change, but that's just me. On the other hand we do get alternate builds for a reason, why not try it and see how it goes? Respecs are easy enough on HC. Share your thoughts if you do respec. I'm sure some folks might like to see a bit more about your build. I'm wondering, did you go for Hybrid Melee?

Hello Doc. I think my big question is: How often are you in melee range getting whacked by melee critters with bit sticks and kicks? Because that's what the S/L defense would be protecting you from. I personally think that with proper positioning and use of your debuffs you do not need to build for Ranged AND Smash/Lethal, its a big overkill, unless you are tankerminding with things in melee range. Then that's different. Dark is about layers of protection. Damage Debuffs. ToHit Debuffs, Resistances, Defense, Heals, Fears, Stuns, Pet Aggro, etc. Unlike a Bots/FF, defense is not the only metric you should focus on, nor does it have to be at cap. And when you're in those iTrials, don't forget, you'll inherit buffs from others, so you'll make cap on most things without trying. I personally find my Demons/Dark does well in all content with my base Ranged Defense at 26% and my resists (with Gargoyle aura and Dark Embrace) as follows: Smash/Lethal 68% Fire 31% Cold 18% Energy 27% Negative 47% Psi 22% Toxic 45% That's for my MM herself. Not the demons. Personally, I find I'm more survivable focusing on an array of things. If you could post a Mid's build, that might prove helpful. But based on my understanding of what you are saying, I'd be inclined to say do not respec, unless you find you are getting KIA'd a lot for some reason. And if you are, it's probably more about tweaking playstyle than numbers. Just my 2 Inf.

I've added incarnate content musings to my post, above, for those who wanted it. @gabrielsantost

@Gateisdownand @DocSkinner Hello folks, here is the Basic IO Demon / Dark build. No sets, no uniques, just all around IO goodness. A great place to start once you are a new 50, or if you just don't want to invest a lot of Inf on a build but still have fun. Please note, I tend to build for high Accuracy. I hate missing, and Dark Miasma hates missing. There are lots of mobs that debuff Accuracy to hell (Widows, CoTs, etc) and I like to compensate. If you've ever been in the middle of +4x8 Packs of Night Widows, you'll understand perhaps. Thus, most everything that needs accuracy has 84% Accuracy with two level 50 IOs, plus Tactics (and Supremacy for the pets). Here is the build. NOTE: you can and should move Hasten earlier in the build, but exactly where is up to you, so I left it where it is for now. In my IO builds, I have enough Global Recharge at lower levels that I find I can push it back, but here you will want it no later than your 30th. Corruption and Group Fly are good candidates for a swap.

Thank you Hopestar

@Sir MyshkinMyshkin would you be able to help regarding Gaussian in Enforcers in terms of viability? Thank you.

We might need to page the proc gods to get help with that. Yes, OF KD of fun in GW. 😅

I can totally do that for you, yes. Something later today. And thank you for the compliment 🙂

Yeah, I don't get that. But to each their own. I'm also fond of Leviathan. Both on MMs and Controllers.

Charge Mastery. Worse in every way compared to the superior Mu Mastery. Surge of Power is no replacement for an armor. EM Pulse, the other unique draw to Charge is often skipped even on Controllers who get it in Radiation. It has no Immob, which is important to MMs. Heat should have an armor, right now Bonfire saves the set due to its mitigation. But it still needs Flame Shield in replacement of Rise of the Phoenix. Self rez for masterminds makes no sense, as the set-up time to get back into battle is just too long before your immunity expires. Field Mastery is 'meh'. But not as terrible as Charge Mastery. You at least get a decent armor and an attack out of it, though unless its for theme, I don't usually recommend non-Primary attacks for MMs. I took the Ice Blast for my Bots/Cold, for example. There is an Epic Pool breakdown in this forum that was very well done. But in a nutshell, I'd rate them as follows, in my experience: Tier A (offers at least two valuable things to MMs, one of which is a shield) Soul Mace Mu Leviathan Chill Tier B (offers at least one valuable thing to MMs) Heat Field Tier C (offers nothing of real value) Charge

Yeah, the Protector Bot rebubbling also takes away from their already mediocre DPS. I do get that their bubbles do affect the Mastermind, so that's a perk, but I'd like to see QoL in them just having mini-dispersion bubbles that do not require casting all the time. I'll try out the web grenade bind, I think I can web spam with the best of them if given the chance! 😛

Yeah I apologise, I'm a wreck with organizing things sometimes particularly without my coffee. Agreed. And as popular as MMs are, could you imagine if we had several more primaries?

Here we go, from @kiramon: Gaussian will proc on whatever has the proc equipped. The cool thing is that it has a chance to proc for You based on # of targets affected by your tactics, but it will only proc you for the Build Up BuFF. if you have a pet with a to-hit buff, it has a chance to proc when they use it. If the pet has their own Version of tacticS, then they have a chance proc it only for themselvesbut the chance is increased Based on # of targets (source: This thread here). There were a few other references, but this one was quite succinct with how it operates with Enforcer Tactics. I think they are the only pet in the game that really benefits from it even when solo due to the MM basically carrying their own pocket team with them. And each Enforcer has their own opportunity to proc it. The proc only benefits the Enforcer, but has a high chance of going off. Honestly, if I didn't have a Thugs/Time already I'd probably roll up a Thugs/Traps, seems like a solid combo. Loses some healing and recharge, but all the extra damage...! 😳

The absolute irony of these two statements did not escape me.

I used Achilles and Lady Gray both in my Enforcers. Yes, a second damage proc would be handy, but I build for teams, too, and increasing everyone else's damage is my goal, so its a trade-off. You can't go wrong either way, if you don't wish to use Achilles Heel, but it is part of my strategy as a force multiplier in my Thugs/Time (yes, I know I have Time's constraint, but I like stacking -Res).

No one can motivate you to excel in life. Or to build a better Mastermind. Ignorance is not a virtue, but it is a right. The only turd in this topic is the "build" you posted to the OP. If the OP wants a "strongest mastermind" following your advice would not be a part of it. Go, open Mids, read the forums, understand what the powers do, how they benefit from the IO system, and what you can do to capitalize on it. Because as things stand, you haven't, and should. /less chars than your post.

For someone who is focusing on a late blooming build, with expensive Hami-Os, your suggestions sure miss the mark. Enforcers with Defense slotting? There is no need. You'll be swimming in Defense between base Enforcer maneuvers, your maneuvers, pet IOs and FFG. Enforcers should be getting Damage Proc IOs or Achilles Heel IO. Guassians, if you go with the increased chance for build up per pet data. Not only are you wasting money on the Hami-Os (which are unneeded), are you suboptimally slotting the Enforcers damage capability. Thugs - should be getting the Overhwelming Force KD IO. Huge mitgation, 3x the chance to proc it. Things knocked on their rear ends do not leave Arsonist's Burn Patch, nor do they fire back or run. Bruiser. Should have the Explosive Strike % damage or Soulbound Allegiance, chance for buildup. This is essential, basic stuff for Bruiser. Acid Mortar is a damage machine with IO procs. So many set procs can fit in here. Bombardment, Positron's, Lady Grey, Shield Breaker, Javelin Volley, Annihilation, Achilles, Overwhelming Force..., That you have it only doing base debuffs makes Thugs cry. Poison Trap also can take many many procs. Unbreakable Constraint, Ghost Widow's Embrace, Neuronic Shutdown - stuff for any budget. The Lockdown +2 Mag proc is the very least you can do, enhancing the control aspect of this power greatly. This also makes Thugs cry. I agree Triage Beacon, Drones and Mines are skippable, but Mines really can help with the "Zone of Death" that a Traps can perform better than anyone else, if there is room to take it. Hasten should be taken in the 20s, no later, IMO. Too many Traps rely on decent recharge. I won't disagree about Black Scorpion, its a good pool for Traps. TL;DR: That build will do sub-par damage and sub-par secondary effects, focuses on all the wrong things and costs too much for too little. I like big posts and I can not lieYou other brothers can't denyThat when there's lots of words in your faceAnd lots of texts without much spaceYou get sprung, want to pull up tough'Cause you notice that post was stuffedDeep in the forums I'm swearin'I'm hooked and I can't stop staringOh baby, I want to read wit'chaAnd make a mental pictureMy Homecoming boys tried to warn meBut that big post you got makes (me so h*rny)…

Public Service Announcement: The AT monthly stats sheets (the two that were published so far one in Aug 2019 and the other in spring 2020) show MMs in the top ATs. They were #3 in the August 2019 stats. The lowest population ATs in the census have ALWAYS been Peacebringers, Warshades, Spiders, Widows and Stalkers. @kelika2 Where are you getting your information from to make such an inaccurate claim? It certainly wasn't from the Homecoming dev report. Let's be clear, I'm not disagreeing. I'm correcting you. If you wanted to claim the sun was a cube, I would not be disagreeing to inform you that it is, in fact, an imperfect sphere. That would be correcting you. And I'm correcting you. I don't expect you to allow yourself to be corrected. You've already demonstrated an alarming ability to close your eyes and remain willfully ignorant. So my continued posting will be for those who might be unduly influenced by your misinformation. To the educated reader and the willing-to-learn, allow me to continue: Here are two builds that compare what you can achieve at level 19, one for a Thugs/Traps MM and another for a Claws/SR scrapper. The IO numbers are for level 50, so realize they would be lower on a level 19, but the point is the number of slots and what you can slot, all other things being equal for the IOs. (to those who are willing to learn, the information below is numerically based and demonstrates a fair comparison between ATs that might illustrate MMs are not, in fact, difficult to level up, function well on minimal slotting, and are rather versatile). Thugs/Traps MM level 19 Build crafted IOs only This build has 15% global defense for Thugs and MM. The Enforcer adds about another 8% Defense vs all, so your minions have about 23% global Defense. On top of that, you ignore the need for recharge (pets don't benefit anyway), EndRedux (most pets do not run out) and can focus on Accuracy (1 slot) and Damage (3 slots for now, so at nearing cap at level 19). By the first upgrade the pets have multiple AOE attacks as well. You also have a heal for the pets and self, plus some damage mitigation (caltrops and web grenade), some control for running mobs (Web grenade), status protection for all (FFG) and some major debuffing/aggro generation (Acid Mortar). An all around good package. And all at level 19, by the way. Claws/SR level 19 Scrapper crafted IOs only This build is used as counterpoint to the MM build above. It is a classic, easy, quick build that gets an early attack chain. I used Super Reflexes since it is the closest comparison to Traps as they are both defense based and lack a real heal (let's save the discussion on Triage Beacon for another time). With the same level, same slots, same available crafted IOs, the scrapper has 3 single target attacks with less total damage buff (has to slot some EndRedux that the MM doesn't have to), and only one AOE (again, less than the MM, who has not only Burst in his minions, but the Arsonist and his burn patches which are arguably superior). Additionally, the scrapper has no way to debuff targets. The scrapper has no heal. The srapper has no crowd control. All they have at 19 are their attacks. And they do not compare to the MM's three minions. In a teaming environment, again, the MM is the superior force. Leveling or end-game. Because of Traps, they are a force multiplier, not only helping themselves, but also helping teammates perform better - boosting their protection, their damage, etc. What about defense? Surely the Scrapper can excel there? Yes. 30% Melee/Ranged, but 0% AOE. That's a trade off against the 23% Global that the MM has that includes AOE and all typed damage (including Psi). I'd actually rule in favor of the Scrapper, here, but not by much. He's got no healing, whereas the MM can patch up the occasional miss through Aid Other. Plus he has Acid Mortar to draw fire. And Caltrops to scatter mobs. And more damage, more AoE and debuffs to make fights quicker. On second thought, the point goes to the MM. He'll kill things quicker and with less risk. All the scrapper has is his Defense, but that's it. The two open spots in Gang War for the MM are open for Unique Pet IOs. If by some chance the MM ran a Summer Blockbuster, and got the Overwhelming Force enhancer, and sold it for two of the IOs, they would add 10% Global Defense vs. all for their pets, boosting them to 33% Global. Making them superior in all regards to the Scrapper. Don't get me wrong. Scrappers are fun. But when you combine a support set with a pet set, you have the opportunity to do wonderful things. For those able to exercise adult patience to read this, I hope it was helpful. I'm available to make a complete build or offer some further thoughts. TL;DR: reading is helpful.

@TheSpiritFox indeed, with /Traps the Achilles Heel proc becomes less valuable. I should have clarified, this is my general rule for Thugs. Ty! 😁

Agree. Enforcers (specifically those who are not Traps) should always have Achilles Heel and either one of the Damage Procs OR Gaussian's % build up.

Very respectfully, I find this statement to be decidedly untrue. And by reading it, I don't want people who are not familiar with MM to assume its an end-game only class. it is not. In fact, it is one of the easiest ATs to level up. I'll explain why, below. First off, every class benefits from being level 50 with slotting and powers to fill in the gaps. This statement that they are late bloomers is true of every single AT. Example, Scrappers and Blasters (arguabley the two most straight-forward ATs)? They need to have 15 extra slots just for a nice, rounded 3 attacks for single target. If you want AOE add another 15 slots for 3 AOE attacks with full slotting. That's before you even get to your Secondary Powers. For the sake of argument, let's assume "leveling up" does not include running level 54 +4/x8 PI purple missions or other events where you are simply being carried. Anyone, any AT, any build can get through that so long as they don't try to face tank things. We will assume playing level-appropriate content at no more than +1 which is where most real leveling teams hang at, on average. Or if you are soloing, then whatever, you set it for your break-even point. For me, again, that's typically been +1 unless I'm in Rogue Isles, then it might be +0 because of the mobs there. Now, MMs can do better than any other AT with fewer slots. Why? Because their pets come with multiple attack powers of their own. That means, the MM doesn't need to worry about filling out a complete attack chain early on. They don't worry about Recharge for their attacks or END drain from attacks. You can simply slot your pets 1 ACC, 2 DAM to start. Most of the pets are not Endurance hungry (excepting Demon Prince, etc). So this lets them land hits and do decent damage right off the bat. And they are going to be doing it with multiple attacks. Every time you improve this slotting, you are giving the slot benefits to muliple powers. At level 19, having T1 and T2 pets at +1ACC/+3 DAM is only two powers, and 6 slots. You'll have had the first pet upgrade, meaning your pets generally are attacking with few pauses, having enough powers. Among all the 3 pets who are active at that level, you have a relatively complete single target attack chain. Compare that to a scrapper. For the same, the scrapper needs roughly 3 attacks. He'll need the same 1 ACC, 3 DAM, but will also require 1 ENDredux and 1 Recharge just to make sure he's not being drained of his blue bar and that they come up quick enough to have low downtime on recharge. That's 3 powers and 9 slots, which means the scrapper has to put in 50% more slots/powers to achieve the same results as the MM. And that's not even looking at the lack of AoE in this assumption, ,whereas MM pets might have an AOE attack or two included in their upgrade. Looking at secondaries, most Scrapper secondaries do not begin to fulfil their purpose until level 25 IOs/SOs. Typically there are three defensive powers of some sort, that each require about 2 extra slots to have a noticable boost to defense/resists/heals, etc. In place of these, a Mastermind with either Time or Dark (the two big MM secondaries) will have chosen three core powers (Time's Juncture, Temporal Mending and Distortion Field for TIME, or Twilight Grasp, Darkest Night and Tar Patch). All of these can perform adequately with 1-4 slots, so call it a break even with Scrappers. MMs are still ahead. They are also safer. The pets are drawing aggro. If one goes down, resummon it. Did you have to eat a blue candy? Don't worry, the scrapper likely had to as well. He's not fully slotted or IO'd out either. Remember the old days before IOs when begged for Accelerate Metabolism? I do. These days? Not so much. That's because EVERY AT benefits from being level 50, with full slots and IOs. Not just MMs. You need the Pet IOs? No, you do not. Again, not unless you are pushing purple content. Then sure. But if you are doing that on any AT, you are going to want IOs. My leveling Tanker would not be doing what she did leveling without IOs. My stalker needed his two Archetype IOs to essentially make the AT what it should have been from the start? Are Stalkers a end-game only AT? No, they shine at lower levels more than scrappers IMO. But if you claim that MMs are the only class to need Unique IOs at 50 (or before) then that's highly inaccurate. Many AT builds rely on a number of IO pieces. Hami Os? Definitely NOT needed on MMs. I use a single IO on all my MMs, and that's in Lich for Acc/Mezz since he actually benefits from it rather easily, low-hanging fruit for my Necro/Dark controllermind build. But does he NEED it? No. You can almost max out any MM pet with five cheap IOs from any of the MM sets: Acc/Dam/End x 3 Acc/Dam Dam/End This gives 86.4% Accuracy, Damage, End Reduction. That sixth slot is left for your Unique IOs, whenever you want. And they really aren't that expensive, compared to other Uniques that other ATs rely on. There is no where where a Hami-O is needed. At all. Ever. Now, you can benefit from them, easily. But they are not necessary. If you have a build that demands a Hami-O, I'll build an alternate build that will do just as well without. Having to farm to level up? False. I came into Homecoming last year with nothing. I don't have a farming character to my name. I don't play the market. I just play the game, collect merits, sell recipes/drops and I've been able to fully kit out 12 Incarnated characters of various ATs. And I still have Inf and Merits to spare. My first character on HC? A MM. Leveled my Bots/FF all the way up to 50 through regular groups, no power leveling, just to relive the experience. Managed to get my first two pet Defense IOs by my 30s by selling merit rewards from TFs and recipes. Literally one Summer Blockbuster run can afford you both, if not more. Right now on the AH, Overhwelming Force sells for 10-15 million. Edict of the Master Defense IO? 2 million. How hard is that? Let's not make MM harder out than it is. Its actually a very forgiving AT to build mechanically, even on a budget. The real barrier is not the cost in slots, or powers, or Hami-Os, or IOs, or Influence. The real barrier is whether or not the player enjoys playstyle of commanding pets and having to also manage said pets. That's my 2 Credits, and I'm sticking to it. Thank you.