Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Morgrum]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Missing due to other players killing the enemy isn't unique to TW though. Just play any PUG where people spam Judgements, or earlier where nukes or strong AoEs are whipped around. This may be coming from a biased perspective, but it seems in that example you are pulling first and swinging second where I generally play with Brutes or Scrappers that swing first. That said, that is a very big concern for Tankers using the set who may not be swinging first to get momentum rolling outside of Build Momentum.

Which is its biggest drawback for Tankers like myself.

When Build Momentum is up I can hit it stutter step and jump in to grab aggro.

When it isn't I have to rely on my Taunt Aura and Taunt.

 

This is a serious drawback to TW versus say SS Footstomp or Electric melees aoes.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Missing due to other players killing the enemy isn't unique to TW though. Just play any PUG where people spam Judgements, or earlier where nukes or strong AoEs are whipped around. This may be coming from a biased perspective, but it seems in that example you are pulling first and swinging second where I generally play with Brutes or Scrappers that swing first. That said, that is a very big concern for Tankers using the set who may not be swinging first to get momentum rolling outside of Build Momentum.

 

 

 

What did you run your test on for EM vs TW? Also, the sheets I have presented show what is possible outside of even secondary sets, and muliple posts in this thread have also given their in-game experiences with TW outside of Pylons that back up the feeling that it is performing very highly.

Yeah and others that play TW are saying otherwise.

 

Is it possible to make it OP under the right outlier circumstances yeah. Not accurate to nerf it basef on that.

[Haijinx]

Still feels clunky and slow at 39. 

 

Aoe is great though.  Whirling Smash may be my favorite PBAOE of all time.   Basically roll on up next to a brute or tank thats clustered some baddies and BAM flatten them all.  

 

It might hit bosses hard? Its hard to objectively say since i spend a lot of time frustrated that momentum is down. 

 

The having to que up slow AF Crushing blow to deal with a Rikti monkey stinks.

 

Its like you took Broad Sword and turned up what makes Broad Sword feel clunkier than Katana. 

 

I can definitely see the potential for high damage.  But its lopey and uneven.  

 

Ill probably run it to 50 but I am already bored with this one.  

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

That is a big concern for Tankers, tho with the changes in the pipeline who knows how behaviors will change... 

 

If you swing first though, or just hit any target in an area even in a team setting you should still be fighting with Momentum up more often than its down when it comes to combat time unless your team is just shredding through everything in it's path then its the buff/debuff scenario or Incarnates more than likely.

[Steampunkette]

A Point Worth Noting: You can't "Miss" because your target died when it comes to Momentum. Momentum is applied when you click the attack power because the check to see whether it hit or not is done when you click the power, not when it does damage.

 

Now someone dropping a judgement as you use your first attack could cause you to -waste- momentum 'cause everything near you is dead, but if you didn't get Momentum when you clicked the power it's because you whiffed all on your lonesome and has nothing to do with whether the target died before you landed a hit.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah and others that play TW are saying otherwise.

 

Is it possible to make it OP under the right outlier circumstances yeah. Not accurate to nerf it basef on that.

Neither side is invalid, but its undeniable that it has more cases where its an outlier, a big one at that, than other sets. Sure, Bio makes everything crazy, but then it makes TW super-crazy. Same with a TW/WP vs another /WP, or a TW/Fire vs a Spines/Fire outside of specific farms, or a TW/Elec that gives it endurance tools and recharge, etc, etc. 

[Hopeling]

26 minutes ago, Morgrum said:

Whirling blade also needs a prep ability to be allowed to use it which other skills do not.

That is a factor your not including.

What am I supposed to "include"? He said that it's not the most damaging attack, but as 15-foot PBAoEs go, it actually is, tied with Foot Stomp. And Foot Stomp has a 20s recharge instead of 14s.

 

I agree that, with the Momentum requirement, it should be a better power than average. But 44% better, 70% counting the DoT? That is a much larger bonus than any other power gets for its drawbacks.

26 minutes ago, Morgrum said:

The numbers you guys keep presenting are numbers based in a vacuum and not the reality of playing the game.

Another thing I and others have posted before here but was ignored outright.

23 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

They don't want to accept that because stationary pylon tests is the main thing they have to show its OP.

I don't know why you guys keep pretending you're the only ones who have played the set. It's smug and rude. Infinitum, it's even worse from you, because from you it's also dishonest. We've had this exchange before. You know full well that I'm not arguing from pylon tests, and have played TW to 50 multiple times. I haven't even cited pylon numbers at all at any point in this thread. This is the very definition of not arguing in good faith.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Hopeling

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

But damage is damage if TW is as OP and aoe and works with anything op across the board as everyone says why not TW fire?

 

From what y'all are saying TW has more damage, is faster and momentum swing isnt a drawback.

 

So why not it then?  Damage is damage.

TW/Fire might be able to do fire farms as fast, but it takes more effort. Spines/Fire in fire farms is the single most broken thing in the game. You can run around in the meteor map for ten seconds, park in the middle, put Burn on auto fire, and walk away for five minutes and more than half the map is dead. Something else being an even bigger outlier doesn't change the fact that TW, especially TW/Bio, is definitely over powered.

 

That being said, I don't want it nerfed. I don't play TW and don't plan to anytime soon. But I would also like SS on Scrappers as close to it's double stacked Rage goodness as possible, and Stone Melee as is too.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Hopeling said:

What am I supposed to "include"? He said that it's not the most damaging attack, but as 15-foot PBAoEs go, it actually is.

 

I agree that, with the Momentum requirement, it should be a better power than average. But 44% better, 70% counting the DoT? That seems excessive.

I don't know why you guys keep pretending you're the only ones who have played the set. It's smug and rude. Infinitum, it's even worse from you, because from you it's also dishonest. We've had this exchange before. You know full well that I'm not talking strictly from pylon tests. I haven't even cited pylon numbers at all at any point in this thread. This is the very definition of not arguing in good faith.

 

Corpse-blasting due to slow attacks is indeed frustrating, and it's a drawback. It is not, however, a HUGE drawback that justifies the set dealing significant extra damage across the board, nor is it even a drawback specific to Titan Weapons. Radiation, Broadsword, or War Mace (among many others) all have to lead with slow attacks too, and their followups will still be slow, unlike TW which uses one slow attack and then gets four fast ones.

Dishonest?   Now thats what is rude.  I've been nothing but honest.

 

For some reason you have a vendetta against it.  Honestly I don't think any of you have played the set all the way up.

[Galaxy Brain]

You still havent given us the builds and attack chains for your EM vs TW test. Technically we are just taking your word at face value on those.

[Mr. Vee]

2 hours ago, Hopeling said:

 

The swords in Apex have Parry. If you can't hit them, get out of melee range for ten seconds until the Parry defense buff falls off, then lead with a knock or mez when you come back in.

Off topic but i didn't mean i can't hit them, i meant i can't catch the buggers. Also gonna have to tap out of this thread cuz went tldr super quick 😄

[Infinitum]

Just now, Hopeling said:

So why did you just say that I'm going on pylon tests and have nothing else? You know full well that I have played TW extensively.

The only thing you can quantify are the pylon tests otherwise you say it's OP in gameplay and I say it's not.  The damage numbers are not even representative to the drawbacks you face in normal gameplay.

 

No way to prove that either way.  The only data point we have is pylon tests and who rolled what.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

Off topic but i didn't mean i can't hit them, i meant i can't catch the buggers. Also gonna have to tap out of this thread cuz went tldr super quick 😄

Yeah it really did. I think this will keep going in circles unless we get some concrete data on like, SO / Common IO level between different sets.

 

Just now, Infinitum said:

The only thing you can quantify are the pylon tests otherwise you say it's OP in gameplay and I say it's not.  The damage numbers are not even representative to the drawbacks you face in normal gameplay.

 

No way to prove that either way.  The only data point we have is pylon tests and who rolled what.

We have the numbers available for TW, other sets, and secondaries. We can put together the math to show how it could perform at any level.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

Off topic but i didn't mean i can't hit them, i meant i can't catch the buggers. Also gonna have to tap out of this thread cuz went tldr super quick 😄

No doubt, the paragraphs saying the same thing that doesnt prove anything keep getting longer and longer.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Yeah it really did. I think this will keep going in circles unless we get some concrete data on like, SO / Common IO level between different sets.

How do we do that?

Edited September 12, 2019 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Yeah it really did. I think this will keep going in circles unless we get some concrete data on like, SO / Common IO level between different sets.

 

We have the numbers available for TW, other sets, and secondaries. We can put together the math to show how it could perform at any level.

 

 

 

 

That's not gameplay though, no variables.  Gameplay isn't in a vacuum.

 

By that definition Spines fire is more OP than TW because more ppl play it.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

How do we do that?

Well, we will need to agree on a certain metric for basic slotting. Such as 3 dam / 1 acc / 1 end / 1 rech for all powers to get your "average joe" experience. Then whatever X factors are available like pools, secondary powers, etc to compare.

 

To accommodate for in-game factors, we can add in % chance to knock away an enemy as a drop in effect, look into damage type resists, look into target caps, etc. Whatever *you* would feel would be good to simulate.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Hopeling]

Just now, Infinitum said:

The only data point we have is pylon tests and who rolled what.

This right here. This is the dishonest part. The very first thing I said in this thread was a specific, detailed analysis of direct power data, nor was this the only time I presented data-driven arguments. You're certainly entitled to disagree with my conclusions, but to say that nobody has presented any data is pure bullshit.

[Haijinx]

17 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

What am I supposed to "include"? He said that it's not the most damaging attack, but as 15-foot PBAoEs go, it actually is, tied with Foot Stomp. And Foot Stomp has a 20s recharge instead of 14s.

 

I agree that, with the Momentum requirement, it should be a better power than average. But 44% better, 70% counting the DoT? That is a much larger bonus than any other power gets for its drawbacks.

I don't know why you guys keep pretending you're the only ones who have played the set. It's smug and rude. Infinitum, it's even worse from you, because from you it's also dishonest. We've had this exchange before. You know full well that I'm not arguing from pylon tests, and have played TW to 50 multiple times. I haven't even cited pylon numbers at all at any point in this thread. This is the very definition of not arguing in good faith.

Can't get footstomp on scrappers though, whirling smash is definitely awesome.  

 

 

[Zepp]

17 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

What am I supposed to "include"? He said that it's not the most damaging attack, but as 15-foot PBAoEs go, it actually is, tied with Foot Stomp. And Foot Stomp has a 20s recharge instead of 14s.

But you don't have to use Build Up to use Foot Stomp. You need Momentum for Whirling Smash, which essentially increases downtime...

[Haijinx]

Just now, Zepp said:

But you don't have to use Build Up to use Foot Stomp. You need Momentum for Whirling Smash, which essentially increases downtime...

Well sort of

 

You can hit any other attack first.  

 

So would be more like hitting KOB before Footstomp.

[Hopeling]

3 minutes ago, Zepp said:

But you don't have to use Build Up to use Foot Stomp. You need Momentum for Whirling Smash, which essentially increases downtime...

It's very weird to me when people quote a sentence, and say something that is addressed by the very next sentence after the quote.

 

Again, I agree that Whirling Smash's Momentum limitation means it should be unusually strong. But so is Foot Stomp. Foot Stomp already breaks the damage formula, getting an extra 5-foot radius "for free". Whirling Smash gets that, plus increased base damage, plus a blazing fast animation, plus a DoT. I don't think that all four of those bonuses are a reasonable tradeoff for one limitation.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

This right here. This is the dishonest part. The very first thing I said in this thread was a specific, detailed analysis of direct power data, nor was this the only time I presented data-driven arguments. You're certainly entitled to disagree with my conclusions, but to say that nobody has presented any data is pure bullshit.

But again none of that represents actual gameplay, the pylon tests come closer than that does honestly.  You are only painting the set as OP by raw numbers with no in game setbacks, or variables you frequently encounter.  Those variables affect TW more than any other set.  It becomes a pumpkin really fast when your chain or timing gets screwed up.

 

Not saying the pylon tests are optimal either.

[Haijinx]

Tbh i still don't get what you mean by screwed up.  

[Infinitum]

Just now, Hopeling said:

It's very weird to me when people quote a sentence, and say something that is addressed by the very next sentence after the quote.

 

Again, I agree that Whirling Smash's Momentum limitation means it should be unusually strong. But so is Foot Stomp. Foot Stomp already breaks the damage formula, getting an extra 5-foot radius "for free". Whirling Smash gets that, plus increased base damage, plus a blazing fast animation, plus a DoT. I don't think that all four of those bonuses are a reasonable tradeoff for one limitation.

You really want to make the game as not fun as possible right?  Who cares if the formulas are broken, it's fun, and challenging.  Nothing is out of balance in reality in game.  Just on a spreadsheet.