Focused Feedback: Rage

[RenInferno]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Do you not use Rage at all? That's exactly what happens with Rage no matter what you do on the live shards.

Oh, I am well aware. My SS/Shield brute Suffers for it, every time I either foot stomp or shield charge into a mob from the previous one and see the cloud of -1 and -2s I lose a good week off my life. The point of my comment was, if we're trying to make the set more appealing, fix what seems 'broken' about it, or makes it less than fun, I'd take not being able to stack Rage over having to deal with a crash if I do. "You're too good, stop that" and whapping you on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

The entire point of my SS character's build is that she's a SS/Shield -brute-. Between Rage, Fury, and Against All Odds, she's meant to be high damage buff all the time all the time. I built her without realizing that the rage crash was there if it was perma, I never played SS on live. The crash makes her INCREDIBLY unfun to play. I'd rather it stick to the power's description of 'when it wears off--' if you have no rage, you crash. I'd take a crash before perma-ing the power in exchange for not being able to get more than one stack of it.

[Vanden]

8 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

I'd take a crash before perma-ing the power in exchange for not being able to get more than one stack of it.

Double-stacked Rage with no crash is simply too good. It (almost certainly) won't happen.

[RenInferno]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Double-stacked Rage with no crash is simply too good. It (almost certainly) won't happen.

I'm not asking to double stack it. Like, the entire point of what I'm saying is that I would rather have one stack perma with no crash than two stacks with a crash.

[Monos King]

If nothing else, the damage resistance debuff needs to be delt away with, stat. It severely undermines being a damage soaking play style, as well as penalizes specializing your build to perma rage, which can often come with inherent trade offs anyway. Bad idea. Players have been able to skillfully plan for rage crash before, and stacking rage is just the appeal / focus of super strength. I actually don't understand this experiment at all since the old set ups only complaint was the damage subtraction anyhow; doing no damage suddenly as a tank is way better than suddenly taking a resistance debuff...especially one your just gonna repeatedly subject yourself to because you gave yourself a recharge bonus!

Edited September 11, 2019 by monos1

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

I'm not asking to double stack it. Like, the entire point of what I'm saying is that I would rather have one stack perma with no crash than two stacks with a crash.

Well if you don't want to double stack it, then the change already gives you what you want.

[Monos King]

7 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

I'm not asking to double stack it. Like, the entire point of what I'm saying is that I would rather have one stack perma with no crash than two stacks with a crash.

The current update already gives you the option for perma rage with no crash luckily for you.

 

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, monos1 said:

If nothing else, the damage resistance debuff needs to be delt away with, stat. It severely undermines being a damage soaking play style, as well as penalizes specializing your build to perma rage, which can often come with inherent trade offs anyway. Bad idea. Players have been able to skillfully plan for rage crash before, and stacking rage is just the appeal / focus of super strength. I actually don't understand this experiment at all since the old set ups only complaint was the damage subtraction anyhow; doing no damage suddenly as a tank is way better than suddenly taking a resistance debuff...especially one your just gonna repeatedly subject yourself to because you gave yourself a recharge bonus!

Why is the -resist so much worse than -defense?   Game wise its just numbers.

 

Thematically a lot of defense sets do not dodge incoming attacks, they deflect them.  Like superman's bullets bouncing off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EvilChicken]

Personally, I would like Rage to only have a crash if you lose all stacks but I may be biased as an Inv/SS tanker main. As others have stated, it feels counterproductive to punish players for achieving something like perma Hasten, perma Mind Link, stacked Rage, etc. If damage is the issue, is it possible to make the buff from Rage diminishing with each stack? That way, there's still a benefit to double Rage without being too powerful.

[RenInferno]

21 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Well if you don't want to double stack it, then the change already gives you what you want.

 

17 minutes ago, monos1 said:

The current update already gives you the option for perma rage with no crash luckily for you.

 

You're both missing the point of it being a "set to auto and forget" power. If you want to micromanage your trays, be my guest, but don't force everyone to play your way by punishing those who don't. It's easier to over-shoot recharge a little bit, just to make sure it's perma when fighting anything with -rech, and people shouldn't be punished for that.

The fact that you're pushing for "micromanage better" instead of "I can understand how this could affect other people" says a lot about the kind of player you must be.

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

You're both missing the point of it being a "set to auto and forget" power. If you want to micromanage your trays, be my guest, but don't force everyone to play your way by punishing those who don't. It's easier to over-shoot recharge a little bit, just to make sure it's perma when fighting anything with -rech, and people shouldn't be punished for that.

The fact that you're pushing for "micromanage better" instead of "I can understand how this could affect other people" says a lot about the kind of player you must be.

If putting Rage on auto is the only way you can be bothered to use it, then nothing changes for you. If, on the other hand, you're willing to put some thought into your play, you can reap the benefits while saving your only auto-cast for some other power. For example, your Shield Brute? Can now use that auto-cast on Active Defense.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Vanden

[Neogumbercules]

One of my biggest issues with this change is that it is antithetical to the gameplay loop people have become accustomed to since 2004 when the game launched. When your best powers recharge you're encouraged to use them as soon as feasible. This mechanic of not using a power when it's recharged feels ass-backwards. This is doubly true for SS users whose entire meta revolves around keeping rage stacked.

 

I'm beginning to think that if we can't accept Rage as it was in live, then the entire powerset needs to be rebalanced. 

[RenInferno]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

If putting Rage on auto is the only way you can be bothered to use it, then nothing changes for you. If, on the other hand, you're willing to put some thought into your play, you can reap the benefits while saving your only auto-cast for some other power. For example, your Shield Brute? Can now use that auto-cast on Active Defense.

I also think you missed the part of that post where I went with that build, on that character, under the assumption that perma Rage did not crash (as was the point of -making rage perma anyway- on live), that building specifically for perma rage only to find that it crashed has made it not fun for me. There are builds and characters out there that have Rage as their only power good for auto casting. Punishing people for having so much as a half second of overlap on a power is Bad. The power's intended thematic outcome and mechanic was that 'your rage subsides and leaves you drained'. Pushing for a crash only if... it never goes away? You Are Full Of Rage All The Time, and That is why you occasionally can't fight your way out of a paper bag?

The entire reason I never played Super Strength on Live was because I figured the crash was unavoidable. The only reason I picked up the set this time around was because I thought that getting Rage perma negated the crash. You are missing the point of everyone's complaints, and frankly, I'm tired of trying to point it out to you. It's not a debate, it's a fundamental difference in how we apparently play the game. You can't expect everyone to play like you do. Your experiences are not universal.

It's not a matter of 'putting thought' into how I play. I'd rather be a good tank for my team, and if you're going to be a good tank on high level content, you need to be more aware of things like, mobs, and who is where, and if you can LoS pull to specific spots. Maybe I'm not as ~galaxy brain~ as you for not having the ability to manage being a good team player and also focus on a single power's cooldown.

[Lazarillo]

5 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

Maybe I'm not as ~galaxy brain~ as you for not having the ability to manage being a good team player and also focus on a single power's cooldown.

Maybe I'm the dumbest of all, because I really can't understand your reasoning.  Can you break it down a bit, because here's what's got me confounded:

-Current Rage - Will crash, no matter what.  You can double stack it, but you'll have that many more crashes to worry about.  When crashed, you lose all your damage and about 40% of your mitigation.

-Beta Rage - Will crash the same as you have been previously only if you use it like you have been previously.  If you don't activate it while the big red "don't push me" button isn't on it, it won't crash ever.  When crashed, you lose all your damage and about 40% of your mitigation (though some of that mitigation has been moved from Defense to Resistance).

 

It seems to me like if you're unhappy with the way Rage works now, then you don't have to use it that way and get a buff from it, and if you're happy with the way it works right now, then nothing is changing in terms of how you have to use it.

 

I truly, honestly, feel like I must be missing something, because I legit don't see how this isn't a straight buff.

[Haijinx]

I think people missed how fervent the ""don't remove double stacked rage" flamefest was.  

 

 

[Haijinx]

Is the new end hit affected by end reduction?  

 

 

[Lazarillo]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think people missed how fervent the ""don't remove double stacked rage" flamefest was. 

I dunno, maybe that has something to do with it.  I just know that the worst part of the Rage crash for me was always the "you do zero damage" part, which, IIRC, was the case even if the buff was multi-stacked.  I definitely remember giving up every SS character I ever played due to frustration at Rage back in the day...but this change has me absolutely ecstatic to dust off some of those old concepts.

[RenInferno]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

Maybe I'm the dumbest of all, because I really can't understand your reasoning.  Can you break it down a bit, because here's what's got me confounded:

-Current Rage - Will crash, no matter what.  You can double stack it, but you'll have that many more crashes to worry about.  When crashed, you lose all your damage and about 40% of your mitigation.

-Beta Rage - Will crash the same as you have been previously only if you use it like you have been previously.  If you don't activate it while the big red "don't push me" button isn't on it, it won't crash ever.  When crashed, you lose all your damage and about 40% of your mitigation (though some of that mitigation has been moved from Defense to Resistance).

 

It seems to me like if you're unhappy with the way Rage works now, then you don't have to use it that way and get a buff from it, and if you're happy with the way it works right now, then nothing is changing in terms of how you have to use it.

 

I truly, honestly, feel like I must be missing something, because I legit don't see how this isn't a straight buff.

You're missing how Rage apparently, (broken, intended, or otherwise,) worked on Live. Which is that when it was Perma, There Was No Crash.

Current Rage is not fun. Crashing if you have even a Little overlap, Is Not Fun, especially for anyone who is building with a little 'wiggle room' on their Perma. People should not be forced to micro-manage a power that seems like it has auto-fire in mind, especially if how you play means your bar is full up already, or you have limited hand mobility (like me, thanks, EDS) that makes having things slotted past 6 something pretty much have to manually click on, which when you're tanking, your mouse is mostly used for camera movement.

Super Strength needs a buff anyway, more than a tweak to make it play a specific way, at least if you ask me.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

I dunno, maybe that has something to do with it.  I just know that the worst part of the Rage crash for me was always the "you do zero damage" part, which, IIRC, was the case even if the buff was multi-stacked.  I definitely remember giving up every SS character I ever played due to frustration at Rage back in the day...but this change has me absolutely ecstatic to dust off some of those old concepts.

I think that its a pretty good compromise considering everything.  

 

Now you can single stack rage with no crash which is what a lot of people wanted.  

 

And you can doublestack for damage, which other people insisted on. 

 

The only thing you can't do is double stack with no penalty, which was a ridiculous ask anyway.  

 

Sure its maybe a bit clumsy compared to auto and forget ... but that seems like a side effect of a compromise solution.

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

You're missing how Rage apparently, (broken, intended, or otherwise,) worked on Live. Which is that when it was Perma, There Was No Crash.

But what you're missing is that that was a bug, it was always a bug, and Homecoming has made it clear that that feature is not coming back. That ship has sailed, but with that in mind, we can see that the changes to Rage here are unambiguously a buff.

[Lazarillo]

9 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

You're missing how Rage apparently, (broken, intended, or otherwise,) worked on Live. Which is that when it was Perma, There Was No Crash.

Are you absolutely sure about that?  Because maybe I'm indeed remembering wrong, after 7 years, but as I mentioned to Haijinx, I distinctly recall having to deal with crashes even on my characters where I attempted to have Perma-Ragers.  Not as punitive a crash, but a crash nonetheless.

 

I also recall that the current non-Beta-HC crash was introduced by the original devs anyway...

Edited September 11, 2019 by Lazarillo

[Haijinx]

It crashed.  Just the -def never happened once you had overlap.  

 

You definitely got the no damage thing.  

 

The end crash too, that was less a big deal since you could recover during the low damage.  

 

 

[RenInferno]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

Are you absolutely sure about that?  Because maybe I'm indeed remember wrong, after 7 years, but as I mentioned to Haijinx, I distinctly recall having to deal with crashes even on my characters where I attempted to have Perma-Ragers.  Not as punitive a crash, but a crash nonetheless.

 

I also recall that the current non-Beta-HC crash was introduced by the original devs anyway...

I know I wouldn't have picked super strength for one of my characters if I had been lead to believe it worked -any- other way. I already said I never played it on live, but I have several friends who did who said that perma rage negated the crash. I had no reason to not believe them. The power's description implies that if Rage is always up, you shouldn't crash. There's no way for them to make changes that will make everyone happy, but appeasing the (probable) few who put in the time, effort, and inf, to build for stacks of Rage, at the cost of making everyone else adjust their play style to avoid a crash? Doesn't feel good.

Like I said originally. I think a vote is the best way to really handle it, see what the majority -actually- thinks.

[HelenCarnate]

On 9/10/2019 at 10:16 PM, Lazarillo said:

Are you absolutely sure about that?  Because maybe I'm indeed remembering wrong, after 7 years, but as I mentioned to Haijinx, I distinctly recall having to deal with crashes even on my characters where I attempted to have Perma-Ragers.  Not as punitive a crash, but a crash nonetheless.

 

I also recall that the current non-Beta-HC crash was introduced by the original devs anyway...

Endurance and damage crashes yes, those always hit.  The defense debuff was avoidable if you double stacked.  Currently no crashes are avoidable as the bug causing the ability to avoid the defense crashed was fixed.  If this goes live, all crashes are avoidable and if you have decent global recharge you can slot end reduction to reduce the up front cost.

 

Edit. I stand corrected.  End reduction only reduces the smaller 5 something endurance and not the extra recently added cost.

Edited September 19, 2019 by HelenCarnate

[Lazarillo]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

It crashed.  Just the -def never happened once you had overlap.  

 

2 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

If this goes live, all crashes are avoidable and if you have decent global recharge you can slot end reduction to reduce the up front cost.

Thanks guys.  I thought maybe I was just legit starting to have senior moments.

So yeah, allow me to continue to welcome our new Rage overlords.

[Couthless]

Can you give it the Sentinel Treatment (for Super Reflexes) where there are two mutually exclusive powers?

One like you described and one that has a 120 second recharge and duration with an unenhanceable recharge? That way people that have no intention of stacking them can take the version that I just mentioned and not have to worry about manually monitoring their buffs to make sure they don't accidentally double-stack.