Focused Feedback: Rage

[Shadowfane]

4 minutes ago, Couthless said:

Can you give it the Sentinel Treatment (for Super Reflexes) where there are two mutually exclusive powers?

One like you described and one that has a 120 second recharge and duration with an unenhanceable recharge? That way people that have no intention of stacking them can take the version that I just mentioned and not have to worry about manually monitoring their buffs to make sure they don't accidentally double-stack.

They've already said they have no intention of doing more powers like that, and that if they could, they'd get rid of the Sentinel one as well.

[William Valence]

I'm still going to recommend changing the mitigation crash to a resist-able -resist of an amount equal to the extra damage you want players to take.

 

It's fair to both defense and resistance, and it's easier for players to understand i.e. "Ok, if I decide to stack I'm going to take double/50%/40% more damage"

[Couthless]

3 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Due to many reasons, deciding and technical ones (the whole mutual exclusive thing is quite a bit of a hack) there wont be any more mutually exclusive powers in the foreseeable future. Master/Practiced brawler was an experiment that we were meaning to remove years ago, but due to many RL things, it never got done.

If you can't have two versions, can't you just get rid of the -damage part of the crash?

It seems to me that the point of the power is to temporarily turn your Tank in to a pseudo-Scrapper. Increasing damage at the expense of your defences makes sense with that, but having a damage crash involved kind of ruins that aspect too. You could even change the power completely and get rid of the crash entirely but make the defensive penalties apply for the entire duration.

[Errants]

19 minutes ago, Couthless said:

If you can't have two versions, can't you just get rid of the -damage part of the crash?

It seems to me that the point of the power is to temporarily turn your Tank in to a pseudo-Scrapper. Increasing damage at the expense of your defences makes sense with that, but having a damage crash involved kind of ruins that aspect too. You could even change the power completely and get rid of the crash entirely but make the defensive penalties apply for the entire duration.

THAT'S GENIUS!!!

 

Change Rage to be a defensive debuff in exchange for the offensive buffs! Oh, you want +ToHit and +Dam? Sure, we're gonna take some Res and Def in exchange. You want to stack it? Sure! We'll just take some more!

[Bionic_Flea]

I haven't read the whole thread and I'm about to head to sleep, but is there any sort of special ring or marker on rage that indicates when a click is a stack?  I like this proposed change.  Sometimes I want that double stacked KO blow.  Other times I want a nice consistent flow without a crash.  Giving me the option is good.

 

But being able to easily know that I am actually making that choice would be helpful.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Bionic_Flea

[Bionic_Flea]

1 minute ago, Eran Rist said:

Change Rage to be a defensive debuff in exchange for the offensive buffs! Oh, you want +ToHit and +Dam? Sure, we're gonna take some Res and Def in exchange. You want to stack it? Sure! We'll just take some more!

No, thank you.

[Captain Powerhouse]

27 minutes ago, Couthless said:

If you can't have two versions, can't you just get rid of the -damage part of the crash?

It seems to me that the point of the power is to temporarily turn your Tank in to a pseudo-Scrapper. Increasing damage at the expense of your defences makes sense with that, but having a damage crash involved kind of ruins that aspect too. You could even change the power completely and get rid of the crash entirely but make the defensive penalties apply for the entire duration.

If that was the goal of the power, it would come with a permanent survivability debuff, not only a crash.

[Cooltastic]

Rage Change Ideas:

 

So this is how I personally feel the power should work based on it's theme, while giving players the ability to manage it however they like. Also boosting SS's damage potential slightly(when and if you want to push it.)

 

First: We lower the cooldown on Rage to 1:30. That should now allow for the ability to get triple stacked.

 

Secondly: Adjust the +Dam and +ToHit to appropriate numbers so that 3 stacks is a nice boost to Super Strengths overall damage potential but not insanely OP at the same time. Maybe these numbers don't even really need changed.

 

Third: Remove the -999%Damage part of the crash completely.

 

Fourth: Make it so that the player only get's hit with the -Def/-Ell/-Res debuff when they have 2 stacks or more of Rage up. The debuff then gets stacked on the 3rd Rage Stack. Change it to -7.5%Def/-15%Ell/-15%Res. With 3 stacks of rage up you'd be at -15%Def/-30%Ell/-30%Res.

 

Fifth:No Endurance cost for 1st activation. 2nd stack costs 20 End to activate. 3rd Stack costs 30 End to activate.

 

So with these changes we now have a power that makes more sense thematically, as you're Rage grows you are able to dish out more and more damage upon your enemies. But this same Rage also makes you more and more careless and you end up taking more damage yourself. The players get's to manage just how far they want to go either way with it. Super Strengths Max Damage potential goes up with teams that can protect them. We also make it so that powers don't get wasted because of a -All your Damage crash that leaves you sitting in frustration, you get to keep being a useful member of your teams.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Cooltastic

[Haijinx]

SS tankers are going go be a lot more fun now at least with the other changes.  

 

Rage+20 foot footstomp+90 degree energy torrent should be a blast.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Hi, I'm just here to say I have no problem with this particular change.

 

As it stands, I don't even bother with Rage. This change would have me incorporate it into my build for situations where an AV or some such needs to be burned down. Something like that. Generally, I don't care that I do trash damage.

 

Why? I have Foot Stomp down to a 4sec CD and that's basically all I need out of SS. I just keep them party bois flying up and down. In fact, with the change to the AoE target cap it's going to be even more effective.  Also, I'm perfectly okay with monitoring click powers. 

 

I get that some other people may not agree with me, but even though I may be the lone voice in the woods it's probably healthy to have a dissenting opinion in the discussion. 

[Haijinx]

56 minutes ago, Cooltastic said:

Rage Change Ideas:

 

So this is how I personally feel the power should work based on it's theme, while giving players the ability to manage it however they like. Also boosting SS's damage potential slightly(when and if you want to push it.)

 

First: We lower the cooldown on Rage to 1:30. That should now allow for the ability to get triple stacked.

 

Secondly: Adjust the +Dam and +ToHit to appropriate numbers so that 3 stacks is a nice boost to Super Strengths overall damage potential but not insanely OP at the same time. Maybe these numbers don't even really need changed.

 

Third: Remove the -999%Damage part of the crash completely.

 

Fourth: Make it so that the player only get's hit with the -Def/-Ell/-Res debuff when they have 2 stacks or more of Rage up. The debuff then gets stacked on the 3rd Rage Stack. Change it to -7.5%Def/-15%Ell/-15%Res. With 3 stacks of rage up you'd be at -15%Def/-30%Ell/-30%Res.

 

Fifth:No Endurance cost for 1st activation. 2nd stack costs 20 End to activate. 3rd Stack costs 30 End to activate.

 

So with these changes we now have a power that makes more sense thematically, as you're Rage grows you are able to dish out more and more damage upon your enemies. But this same Rage also makes you more and more careless and you end up taking more damage yourself. The players get's to manage just how far they want to go either way with it. Super Strengths Max Damage potential goes up with teams that can protect them. We also make it so that powers don't get wasted because of a -All your Damage crash that leaves you sitting in frustration, you get to keep being a useful member of your teams.

So your suggestion for minimizing the issues caused by Double Stacked Rage is to make Triple Stacked Rage easier?

[Breakstar]

I feel like this creates weird incentives where you either want to wait out Rage so you cast a 'fresh' one that won't debuff you, OR you go so hardcore for recharge that the time with double-rage is worth more than the 10 seconds of exhaustion. If someone's got 10 seconds of double-stacked Rage, in their build, it might not even be worth casting since you're also getting 10 seconds of complete weakness in exchange for 10 seconds of moderate improvement.

 

Here's my suggestion: If you cast Rage while Rage is already going, then it resets the duration of all stacks of Rage currently going. So yes, if you can stack Rage at all, then you can stack Rage as many times as you want (up to the damage cap and beyond). However, each stack of Rage beyond the first also applies the defensive debuffs that you guys added:

• -10% defense irresistible
• -20% resist irresistible
• -20% elusiveness irresistible

And of course, these would stack with themselves. So if you want to get 4 stacks of Rage and decimate everything with your 320% bonus damage, go ahead! Just watch out for that -30% Defense and -60% Resistance, that's gonna sting. The idea here would be that one stack of Rage is fine, but after that you're being reckless and endangering yourself for more damage. I think it really drives home the thematic of Rage while also adding a new gameplay dynamic - choosing whether to double-down and continually accumulate more damage and vulnerability, or letting it fall off and reset the 'cycle' of building Rage stacks.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I haven't read the whole thread and I'm about to head to sleep, but is there any sort of special ring or marker on rage that indicates when a click is a stack?  I like this proposed change.  Sometimes I want that double stacked KO blow.  Other times I want a nice consistent flow without a crash.  Giving me the option is good.

 

But being able to easily know that I am actually making that choice would be helpful.

 

 

Yes, Flea. Rage will have a blue ring to let you know when clicking it will stack.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Breakstar said:

I feel like this creates weird incentives where you either want to wait out Rage so you cast a 'fresh' one that won't debuff you, OR you go so hardcore for recharge that the time with double-rage is worth more than the 10 seconds of exhaustion. If someone's got 10 seconds of double-stacked Rage, in their build, it might not even be worth casting since you're also getting 10 seconds of complete weakness in exchange for 10 seconds of moderate improvement.

 

Here's my suggestion: If you cast Rage while Rage is already going, then it resets the duration of all stacks of Rage currently going. So yes, if you can stack Rage at all, then you can stack Rage as many times as you want (up to the damage cap and beyond). However, each stack of Rage beyond the first also applies the defensive debuffs that you guys added:

• -10% defense irresistible
• -20% resist irresistible
• -20% elusiveness irresistible

And of course, these would stack with themselves. So if you want to get 4 stacks of Rage and decimate everything with your 320% bonus damage, go ahead! Just watch out for that -30% Defense and -60% Resistance, that's gonna sting. The idea here would be that one stack of Rage is fine, but after that you're being reckless and endangering yourself for more damage. I think it really drives home the thematic of Rage while also adding a new gameplay dynamic - choosing whether to double-down and continually accumulate more damage and vulnerability, or letting it fall off and reset the 'cycle' of building Rage stacks.

Wait .. okay .. so unlike the other guy who wants to triple stack rage to solve the double stacked rage problem .. You want to quadruple stack rage to solve the double stacked rage problem?

[DMW45]

No, you see, we need to stack Rage five times because...

 

 

Personally, I just don't want to have to deal with a power I'll probably forget to click half the time--and most of the other half of the time click it two seconds too early and be hit with a debuff because of it.

 

If I could throw it on auto and be done with it, that'd be awesome >_>

 

It's the casual vs hardcore argument, I suppose?

Edited September 11, 2019 by DMW45

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, DMW45 said:

No, you see, we need to stack Rage five times because...

 

>.<

 

Maybe if they could add a Null the Gull choice though?  No idea if that's feasible.  But it sounds like your main issue is accidentally double stacking because you want the single stacked option provided in the OP, but not the clunkiness.  

 

 

[DMW45]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Kimuji]

This is just the death of Rage stacking. Who's gonna bother going double Rage when every 60s you get your defenses decreased, your resistances decreased and your damage reduced to zero when a single Rage comes at absolutely no cost? There is no real benefit to stack rage anymore.

It's a massive punishment for a marginal increase in sustained DPS: The whole point of stacking rage is to deal more damage if keeping Rage to a single instance doesn't incur a damage penalty when stacking means that you get your damage reduced to zero for 10s every minute then it completely defeats the very purpose of stacking Rage.
The 10s -999% damage debuff should at least remain for 1 instance of Rage to make double Rage even remotely desirable.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Kimuji

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Kimuji said:

There is no real benefit to stack rage anymore.
 

Other than the bonus "to hit" and damage you mean?

 

The penalties for stacking are basically the same as they are now.  Just more evenly spread out between Resist and Defense.  

 

[Kimuji]

10 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Other than the bonus "to hit" and damage you mean?

 

The penalties for stacking are basically the same as they are now.  Just more evenly spread out between Resist and Defense.  

 

The imbalance is more about going from 1 crash every 2 mins for 1 rage and 1 crash every minute for 2 rages to no crash for 1 rage and a bigger crash every minute for two rages. Stacking Rage was already 'punished' with a crash that occurs twice as often. Stacking Rage already came at a bigger price but now the gap is even bigger: Rage is free and double Rage still comes at a very high cost. Balance has been completely thrown out of the window.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Kimuji

[Auraln]

No one has recommended this yet but just going to put it out there.

 

Maybe make it a toggle?

 

+To hit and +damage for x end cost?

 

Maybe even add in a new power when it is toggled on like mystic flights teleport?

 

This new power focused rage, a click power that only increases your damaged more but this extra click power has a crash when it wears off.

[DMW45]

 

12 minutes ago, Auraln said:

No one has recommended this yet but just going to put it out there.

 

Maybe make it a toggle?

 

+To hit and +damage for x end cost?

 

Maybe even add in a new power when it is toggled on like mystic flights teleport?

 

This new power focused rage, a click power that only increases your damaged more but this extra click power has a crash when it wears off.

That... actually might work.  Somewhat?

 

Have Rage be a toggle, and the 'double stack' be the additional power, yeah.

[Haijinx]

Toggle was suggested before, but a lot of people wanted to keep Double Rage so >.<

[DMW45]

This... keeps double rage?

[naraganeun]

Why not have rage damage bonus scale with recharge like snipes with ToHit? That way people with high recharge (similar to high tohit) can benefit without having to waste their recharge for the sake of avoiding the crash. Could be a reasonable scaling from +80% to a maximum of %100 dmg. Or let it stack but any further stacks only add 10% dmg

 

my SD/SS tank build is sitting at %211 global recharge (to make my AoEs recharge fast) but have no slots on rage because the rage crash is too much of a hassle.