Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[LastHumanSoldier]

Can any explain to me why tankers and brutes coming to parity is such a huge issue?  For a majority of this games life scrappers were better in PVE than stalkers in every way that counted.

 

People still played stakers in PVE.

[Myrmidon]

1 minute ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

Can any explain to me why tankers and brutes coming to parity is such a huge issue?  For a majority of this games life scrappers were better in PVE than stalkers in every way that counted.

 

People still played stakers in PVE.

 

Until the changes, Banes were a better Stalker than Stalkers.😂

[LastHumanSoldier]

Just now, Myrmidon said:

 

Until the changes, Banes were a better Stalker than Stalkers.😂

I have never seen anyone deny a stalker a team because they were leas optimal than a scrapper or Bane soldier is my point. 

 

Heck teams dont even need a specific AT anyway.

[Myrmidon]

10 minutes ago, Rejolt said:

I've tested a fully setted Elec/SS tank and SS/Elec brute on the beta servers and while  pretty darn close in performance I'd think a brute teaming with a tank would lose the aggro that makes having fury coupled with a .75 damage scale advisable.

 

Now, THAT is something that could use some side-by-side testing.

[Myrmidon]

1 minute ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

I have never seen anyone deny a stalker a team because they were leas optimal than a scrapper or Bane soldier is my point. 

 

Heck teams dont even need a specific AT anyway.

 

The only thing that should legitimately be denied a team spot is a Rad without the debuffs. Those people need psychiatric help...

[Haijinx]

With the buffs certain sets will favor tankers more than Brutes relatively.

 

SS

Bio, Shield Defense 

Electric Melee since its AOE focused 

and so on.  

 

Sets that rely on high base numbers and not damage buffs as a %+dmg though will favor Brutes.  

 

This does happen with other ATs (Scrapper vs Stalker) in places. 

 

    

[Snakebit]

32 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

Can any explain to me why tankers and brutes coming to parity is such a huge issue?  For a majority of this games life scrappers were better in PVE than stalkers in every way that counted.

 

People still played stakers in PVE.

Personally I don't care about parity.  I'm just hoping for some decent damage output for tanks as they progress. Its disheartening to play through a build and have each new attack not really do all that much to reduce clear speed.

[Mr. Igneous]

I just tested a Stone/Ice tank for a bit.  I really don't like the T1 and T2 power switch at all.  Nobody used Ice Sword in the past, Frozen Fists is just the better power.  Ice Sword is terrible compared to having Frozen fists.  Please do not change /ice T1 and T2 powers.

[LastHumanSoldier]

1 hour ago, cejmp said:

Personally I don't care about parity.  I'm just hoping for some decent damage output for tanks as they progress. Its disheartening to play through a build and have each new attack not really do all that much to reduce clear speed.

I am definately on the yes side of the aisle btw

  Tanks are horrible on live

[Vanden]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Igneous said:

I just tested a Stone/Ice tank for a bit.  I really don't like the T1 and T2 power switch at all.  Nobody used Ice Sword in the past, Frozen Fists is just the better power.  Ice Sword is terrible compared to having Frozen fists.  Please do not change /ice T1 and T2 powers.

?

 

Ice Sword has both higher DPA and higher damage than Frozen Fists, how is it terrible compared to Frozen Fists?

[Mr. Igneous]

34 minutes ago, Vanden said:

?

 

Ice Sword has both higher DPA and higher damage than Frozen Fists, how is it terrible compared to Frozen Fists?

Recharge time 3s for Frozen Fists vs 6s for Ice Sword. Ice Sword does not do double the damage of Frozen Fists, therefore Frozen Fists are better.  Especially in Granite lower recharge time is preferred to punchvoke faster.  I don't want to wait double the time for Ice Sword to come up.  Remember as a Stone tank I have -recharge to deal with, I don't want a slower power as my primary punchvoke.

 

I would not want Ice Sword unless it was also a 3 second base recharge time.

[Vanden]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Recharge time 3s for Frozen Fists vs 6s for Ice Sword. Ice Sword does not do double the damage of Frozen Fists, therefore Frozen Fists are better.  Especially in Granite lower recharge time is preferred to punchvoke faster.  I don't want to wait double the time for Ice Sword to come up.  Remember as a Stone tank I have -recharge to deal with, I don't want a slower power as my primary punchvoke.

That's just how the damage formula works. Doubling the recharge doesn't double damage, it's the same for every power. By that logic Jab is a better attack than Knockout Blow.

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

That's just how the damage formula works. Doubling the recharge doesn't double damage, it's the same for every power. By that logic Jab is a better attack than Knockout Blow.

Back at issue 0 the devs felt this way.

 

But that was before there were ios and they hadn't thought through 6 slotting hasten.  

 

Take it further, brawl is even better since it really recharges fast.

[Mr. Igneous]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

That's just how the damage formula works. Doubling the recharge doesn't double damage, it's the same for every power. By that logic Jab is a better attack than Knockout Blow.

Damage over time of Frozen Fists on Auto attack, is far better than Ice Sword will ever be. 

 

Not using it for damage, just need it as filler to hold aggro while slower more powerful attacks charge.  This is a filler power to hold aggro between heavy hits.  Just so happens that it does way more damage than putting Ice Sword on auto attack over the same period of time.  You also have to account for an occasional miss.  You miss with ice sword and you now have gone 12 seconds without an auto attack, as opposed to 6 seconds with Frozen Fists.  To a tank this sometimes matters to keep a solid punchvoke.  On a Granite tank these little recharge things really matter.  I don't care if Ice Sword does more damage per hit, I need a power up more often than a base of 6 seconds.  Why is it you are just talking about damage?

[Noyjitat]

15 hours ago, Vanden said:

It doesn’t dramatically change the entire AT to give it bigger AoEs and a little higher base damage. It still plays exactly the same and brings the same thing to a team that it always has.

Increasing the damage bonus cap to 600% is a dramatic change. There's now way to sugar coat or skirt around that.... The tank will now be dps + highest defenses, an entirely different at than it once was.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Noyjitat

[HelaChain]

Just scratching my head a little, I mean I understand wanting more dmg on a tanker but then you can just play a brute so basically this change narrows the difference from the two. If I decide to play a tanker than I understand I am a meat shield and this takes away from the classic feel of the game. Personal opinion, don't change the game.

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Noyjitat said:

Increasing the damage bonus cap to 600% is a dramatic change. There's now way to sugar coat or skirt around that.... The tank will now be dps + highest defenses, an entirely different at than it once was.

The Tanker has no ability to take advantage of the increased cap on its own. Even double-stacked Rage, 95% damage enhancement, and Musculature Core Paragon is still below the 400% damage cap they have currently. It won't make a difference outside of extreme team buff situations.

22 minutes ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Damage over time of Frozen Fists on Auto attack, is far better than Ice Sword will ever be. 

 

Not using it for damage, just need it as filler to hold aggro while slower more powerful attacks charge.  This is a filler power to hold aggro between heavy hits.  Just so happens that it does way more damage than putting Ice Sword on auto attack over the same period of time.  You also have to account for an occasional miss.  You miss with ice sword and you now have gone 12 seconds without an auto attack, as opposed to 6 seconds with Frozen Fists.  To a tank this sometimes matters to keep a solid punchvoke.  On a Granite tank these little recharge things really matter.  I don't care if Ice Sword does more damage per hit, I need a power up more often than a base of 6 seconds.  Why is it you are just talking about damage?

Punchvoke doesn't even kick in until level 10, at which point you can have Taunt and will have had plenty of opportunities to have taken both your T1 and T2 attacks, and I don't see why you wouldn't with Ice Melee, since it loses an attack to get Ice Patch. I really don't think the swap is a bad thing for Ice Melee.

[Leogunner]

5 minutes ago, HelaChain said:

Just scratching my head a little, I mean I understand wanting more dmg on a tanker but then you can just play a brute so basically this change narrows the difference from the two. If I decide to play a tanker than I understand I am a meat shield and this takes away from the classic feel of the game. Personal opinion, don't change the game.

Think of it this way:

 

In the past, if you wanted to play a melee DPS you could play a Brute or Scrapper...you could also play a Stalker but they weren't optimal for the task.  Now, they are good and you can now choose to make not just a Brute, Scrapper or Stalker but instead a Brute Scrapper AND Stalker because they play differently.

 

EDIT: That isn't to say that Tankers aren't optimal for a task, it's more a diversification so they play differently from a Brute to entice players to play Tankers, pretty much adding them to that pool.  And if you want to argue that this isn't diversification but rather homogenization, I'll have you know Shadow Maul feels VERY different on the Beta Tanker than any other AT. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Leogunner

[Noyjitat]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

The Tanker has no ability to take advantage of the increased cap on its own. Even double-stacked Rage, 95% damage enhancement, and Musculature Core Paragon is still below the 400% damage cap they have currently. It won't make a difference outside of extreme team buff situations.

 

And this sir or madam is how you break things. You only assume one outcome and dont consider them all. 

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Noyjitat said:

And this sir or madam is how you break things. You only assume one outcome and dont consider them all. 

No, balancing around the extremes rather than the most common situations is how you break things.

[Profit]

2 minutes ago, Noyjitat said:

And this sir or madam is how you break things. You only assume one outcome and dont consider them all. 

As a career inv/ss tank, I can assure you there is no way I'm hitting that cap shy of 3 stacked fulcrum shifts.

 

On my farmer brute, on the asteroids, I can only maintain the dmg cap for 30 seconds to a minute while eating all the reds. On my blaster, on the asteroid, I can only maintain the 400% dmg cap for 2 minutes and some change usually.

 

Again, there is no way a tank will ever be able to hit that cap without heavy buffing.

[Noyjitat]

2 minutes ago, Profit said:

As a career inv/ss tank, I can assure you there is no way I'm hitting that cap shy of 3 stacked fulcrum shifts.

 

On my farmer brute, on the asteroids, I can only maintain the dmg cap for 30 seconds to a minute while eating all the reds. On my blaster, on the asteroid, I can only maintain the 400% dmg cap for 2 minutes and some change usually.

 

Again, there is no way a tank will ever be able to hit that cap without heavy buffing.

I duo with a well built fire kin and getting damage capped on a non super strength character isn't hard. Again you're still missing the point. When one decides to make a tank they make them knowing they are a tank, not dps, never meant to even become close to dps. You can't have best defense and high damage and expect it to be balanced. It remained this way for 23 issues and here we are trying to break what wasn't broken. Even have the powers dev admitting his bias and vision for tanks.

 

I recently finished my tank builds from live and yeah I see how much the damage sucks and it sucks as much I remember them but that's not what I made them for. I made them for group content, incarnates and boss fights when I feel like playing the tank. during those extremes when the rest of the team just can't pull it and I'll bring the tank. Won't be much of a point investing in the brute, I'll just bring the tank to all the group content now and get the best of both worlds.

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Noyjitat said:

I duo with a well built fire kin and getting damage capped on a non super strength character isn't hard. Again you're still missing the point. When one decides to make a tank they make them knowing they are a tank, not dps, never meant to even become close to dps. You can't have best defense and high damage and expect it to be balanced. It remained this way for 23 issues and here we are trying to break what wasn't broken. Even have the powers dev admitting his bias and vision for tanks.

 

I recently finished my tank builds from live and yeah I see how much the damage sucks and it sucks as much I remember them but that's not what I made them for. I made them for group content, incarnates and boss fights when I feel like playing the tank. during those extremes when the rest of the team just can't pull it and I'll bring the tank. Won't be much of a point investing in the brute, I'll just bring the tank to all the group content now and get the best of both worlds.

And how many Tankers would you say don't duo with a well-built Kin controller? Do you think it might be most of them? The damage cap changes nothing about the base Tanker gameplay. It only means that damage buffs aren't so easily wasted on them.

[Noyjitat]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

And how many Tankers would you say don't duo with a well-built Kin controller? Do you think it might be most of them? The damage cap changes nothing about the base Tanker gameplay. It only means that damage buffs aren't so easily wasted on them.

How many tankers would you say do alot of soloing? Do you think it might be most of them?

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Noyjitat said:

How many tankers would you say do alot of soloing? Do you think it might be most of them?

What's your point? Like I said, those Tankers can't take advantage of the new damage cap.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Vanden