copyrighted chars and npcs in game

[justicebeliever]

3 minutes ago, dmaker said:

I find these threads amusing. The whole "I'm worried about legal exposure created by costumes that infringe upon trademarks!"  Then people go on about contempt and disrespect for people who create homage or cosplay costumes. 

 

Which is it? Pearl clutching over the possible legal issues, or a veiled excuse to berate others because you feel more creative than they seem to be?

 

 

One opinion informs the other...

"I want to be a good citizen"->"Copying other peoples works might be against the law"->"I hate people who copy other people's works"

 

OR

 

"I want people to be more creative"->"Copying other peoples works might be against the law"->"You shouldn't copy other peoples works, it's illegal"

 

I'm not standing up for either POV...but it's normative...We all (all of us) live in our own echo chambers and lean on the facts that support what we believe...

[Heraclea]

I cheerfully admit that Heraclea began her existence as an homage to Wonder Woman.  My Wonder Woman fandom isn't what it used to be, mostly because I was absolutely disgusted by DC's mistreatment of the character and her world in the New 52.  I don't read much DC any more.  She and Wonder Woman have gone separate paths; it starts with the fact that Heraclea's Amazons are Romans rather than Greeks. 

 

Give them time to develop.  If you treat your characters as characters rather than chessmen, characters that started off as homages will take on more and more original features. 

 

 

[Trademarked Name]

2 minutes ago, daHob said:

Fair enough. I think I may be in a grumpy mood today.

Hey. I think you need to have a snickers. 

 

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, daHob said:

Fair enough. I think I may be in a grumpy mood today.

Stay Grumpy!

I run on Anger, Green Hungarian Spinach, and Caffeine most days.

 

Some poeple really hate how much I can discuss a topic, just look at these forums! 😉

 

[daHob]

Just now, jubakumbi said:

Stay Grumpy!

I run on Anger, Green Hungarian Spinach, and Caffeine most days.

 

Some poeple really hate how much I can discuss a topic, just look at these forums! 😉

 

So, like a Popeye/Hulk crossbreed?

[GM Capocollo]

We don't currently have any policy against characters, Architect Entertainment missions, supergroup bases, etc. that copy or make homage to other people's trademarks or intellectual property.  Reports of infringement will be noted, but no action will be taken*.

 

However, that does not mean HC will never have any such policy, especially if Homecoming Team finds itself in a situation where it is required to comply with a rights-holder's cease-and-desist or DMCA takedown notice.

 

(In short: it is fine now, but don't assume it will always be fine).

 

* If you yourself are an author, artist or other intellectual property holder and a HC player's content is infringing on that, please file a ticket with proof that you're the rights-holder, and we'll talk.

[ShardWarrior]

5 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I learned there's value in my own creativity and effort, and that I should respect the creativity and effort of others. 

This is based on the very, very, very false assumption that cosplay is not at all creative, takes no effort and has no respect for the creativity of others.  In fact, the exact opposite is true.  As I said, just watch any video on YouTube from any type of comic/anime/gaming con and look at the meticulous lengths a great many adults and children alike go to in crafting their cosplay costumes.  You can clearly see the amount of effort that went into making them. 

 

As an example, this man is a world record holder for his cosplay.  Are you really going to try and claim this is not creative and took no effort? Or he doesn't understand that Batman is a trademarked character?  Look at all the stuff Hacksmith builds.  Clearly a lot of effort going into these and he is collecting advertising money to make these videos.

 

This isn't being done to be disrespectful or harm the IP owners - quite the opposite.  It shows the great love, respect and adoration people have for their favorite character.  I personally see this as an important part of keeping those characters/properties relevant.  To give a real world example - look at CBS and Star Trek fan films.  CBS never said a word for decades about fan projects - some they even acknowledged and encouraged.  Why?  It helped keep interest in their IP alive.  CBS took exception to their long standing rule the instant some total moron tried to make a profit from it. 

 

Believe me, I totally get it that people think cosplays/homages are tacky or whatever and there is absolutely unequivocally nothing wrong with that at all.  But to try and label homages/cosplays as not creative or intentionally trying to crap on their respective owners is completely and utterly false.  Personally, I also don't see Disney/Marvel or WB/DC going all crazy over a long dead MMO no more than Procter and Gamble going crazy about people creating characters named after one of their trademarked feminine products.

[jubakumbi]

5 minutes ago, daHob said:

So, like a Popeye/Hulk crossbreed?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Thanks! I have been looking for a good melee idea, that is friggin' awesome!

(It is a euphamism for something I hesitate to mention on a forum, *wink* *wink*, *nudge* *nudge*, say no more!)

 

I think it needs to be Popeye/Hulk/Barista - yes, Baristas can be Heroes!

 

So is that idea original, or a knock off, FIght!

Edited September 11, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[MunkiLord]

17 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Considering how easy it was to recreate known characters to where NCSoft literally got sued for it, I'll just say we are going to have to agree to disagree on how creative one has to be with one of the better character creator tools around. I'm not saying people can't make heroes they like. I'm just saying lets not get carried away with saying how creative people are for making Hulk#Over9000. Hell, I really like my take on Cap, but there was very little creative about it. Basically make Cap and add in something I like putting on similar looking heroes as sort of my own trademark and call it a day. Note I didn't keep the character. I didn't have it in a costume contest because, hello, it was quite obvious what I was going for.

 

Oddly enough, I did recently think about how I kind of made X-23 here before she was a thing or at least before I knew she was a thing.

I'm not saying that it takes a large amount of unique creativity to make these clones. What I'm saying is that the so-called original characters that most of us make are generally no more creative than clones.

[GM Capocollo]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

Personally, I also don't see Disney/Marvel or WB/DC going all crazy over a long dead MMO no more than Procter and Gamble going crazy about people creating characters named after one of their trademarked feminine products.

There's more companies and authors out there than Disney and WB.  Even if they're too big to care, a lot of companies aren't.

[justicebeliever]

7 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Baristas can be Heroes!

Can be?  Baristas are Heroes...they have to deal with me when I am grumpy, and then they totally save my day.  Definition of a hero to me!

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

There's more companies and authors out there than Disney and WB.  Even if they're too big to care, a lot of companies aren't.

Yup.

Just like some people here think clone/homage is 'bad' rather than 'heartfelt', some IP owners are on both sides as well!

 

IMO, the very public response you have of "If you are the IP holder, talk to us" and "If things have to chnage, then they will" is perfect!

'We will cross that bridge IF it appears' is a reasonable stance.

It acknowledges the situation and provides clear 'rules' for the moment, using logic and reason.

Thanks!

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, justicebeliever said:

 

 

Creating a Batman look alike is a copyright violation, not a trademark.  Creating a character whose secret identity is Bruce Wayne is likely a copyright violation, but is definitely not a trademark.  Creating a lizard blaster and calling him Batman, is absolutely a trademark violation.  And creating any superhero with the word "superhero" in it is a violation of trademark (oddly Marvel/DC jointly own a trademark on Superhero)

 

Is using these names (or slight variations like Bat-Man or Bat-manX, or Batman 2) a violation of trademark law?  Most definitely...but it's something that IF Homecoming gets contacted about, they can do what's already been stated, just remove those names from the existing characters (like live) and motor on.

 

---

TL;DR - The legality of these issues is always a big questions mark.  However, the enforcement of them, in this situation (fan art) is extremely lax, and given the non-commercial nature of what HC is doing here, I'm highly dubious that there will be any action against the look or origin of characters.  Ultimately, maybe naming rules come into play, but even that's not a certainty...

Question, wouldn't it need to be used in some sort of commerce in a field in which DC owns the trademark and lead to potential customer confusion for it to be a trademark violatio?**

 

**In theory anyway, in practice many companies treat trademark law as an extension of copyright when the original intent was consumer protection.

[Chuckers]

Interesting point, I NEVER read a super hero comic before playing CoX. Growing up, I had a few Archie comic books, but super heroes never interested me. After playing this game, I have bought a couple of super hero comic books and I have totally gotten into all the movies.. I think the only one I have never seen is "Spawn." The funny thing is that Marvel and DC HAVE made money off of this game.. in an indirect way. They've gotten me as a consumer. So, in essence, other people creating clones helped lead me to the real thing. 

While I don't believe in making clones, and I kinda get upset when I see a Mr. Incredible in a red and yellow costume, I let it go and let them have their fun. If it comes down to something that may shut this game down, I will report them. Until that point, play to your heart's content... just keep in mind that rules may change later on. 

[Frostbiter]

1 minute ago, Chuckers said:

Interesting point, I NEVER read a super hero comic before playing CoX. Growing up, I had a few Archie comic books, but super heroes never interested me. After playing this game, I have bought a couple of super hero comic books and I have totally gotten into all the movies.. I think the only one I have never seen is "Spawn." The funny thing is that Marvel and DC HAVE made money off of this game.. in an indirect way. They've gotten me as a consumer. So, in essence, other people creating clones helped lead me to the real thing. 

While I don't believe in making clones, and I kinda get upset when I see a Mr. Incredible in a red and yellow costume, I let it go and let them have their fun. If it comes down to something that may shut this game down, I will report them. Until that point, play to your heart's content... just keep in mind that rules may change later on. 

If you want to watch Spawn then skip the movie and go for the HBO animated run. The movie isn't bad it's just not good either.

[ShardWarrior]

44 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

I cheerfully admit that Heraclea began her existence as an homage to Wonder Woman.  My Wonder Woman fandom isn't what it used to be, mostly because I was absolutely disgusted by DC's mistreatment of the character and her world in the New 52.  I don't read much DC any more.  She and Wonder Woman have gone separate paths; it starts with the fact that Heraclea's Amazons are Romans rather than Greeks. 

 

Give them time to develop.  If you treat your characters as characters rather than chessmen, characters that started off as homages will take on more and more original features. 

 

 

I cheerfully admit that mine is a Wonder Woman clone as well - albeit not all that literally. 

 

If you were to read her in-game bio, she is most definitely not a clone of the real WW, rather a clone from genetic material of random donor super powered people.  She, like all the other "minis", are part of a failed FBSA funded experiment run by a Freedom Corps/Vanguard joint venture.  The program - code named "Operation Goliath" - was put in place as a way to quickly replace heroes lost in the first Rikti War.  The project never really worked, and was "officially" cancelled (it still operates in secret of course) when the science used was deemed a failure due to all of the clones never reaching a height beyond 3 feet.  Hence the term "mini" and why they all have some variation of the word "mini" in their names. 

 

Basically, this idea was born out of boredom.  There were a group of us back in the day before incarnates and IOs who had already leveled up multiple 50s.  We were bored one night and were chatting and laughing on teamspeak about "Mini Me" from the Austin Powers movie.  We all thought it would be hilarious to make "mini" versions of each others characters, so we did.  We had a ton of fun playing all of them together and poking fun at each other.  That idea eventually expanded into the whole "Operation Goliath" story. 

 

I had a couple of fun AE arcs back in the day titled "World War Mini" and "Planet Mini" where one of the minis went evil and stole the cloning technology.  She attempted to create her own clone army and take over the world.  I mean, why not?  That's what evil people do. 

 

The "minis" are (and are meant to be) humorous parodies and to this day I still find them funny and fun to play.  I enjoy them just as much as my original characters. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[subbacultchas]

This. again? What are we going to cover here that we didn't cover during May and June?

[ShardWarrior]

22 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

There's more companies and authors out there than Disney and WB.  Even if they're too big to care, a lot of companies aren't.

Of course there are.  No doubt about it.  I will just respectfully disagree this is something to be overly concerned about at this point.

[justicebeliever]

2 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Question, wouldn't it need to be used in some sort of commerce in a field in which DC owns the trademark and lead to potential customer confusion for it to be a trademark violatio?**

 

**In theory anyway, in practice many companies treat trademark law as an extension of copyright when the original intent was consumer protection.

The question about trademarks usually comes down to "Would it confuse the customer?".  If 2 companies operate in completely different markets, then yes they can share the same name.  Although for made-up words that tends to be harder.  Delta Airlines and Delta Faucets are pretty easy to separate.  But if I made a comic book called "Coca Cola Man", and tried to trademark it, I'd probably lose because any customer is going to think that Coca Cola made that product.

 

Trademark is limited to words, slogans, symbols and logos.  Symbols/Logos are as close as you get to an image.  However Congress keeps extending copyright protections (originally 28 years), now 95 years.  So for most modern works, trademark and copyright really are intertwined.  However, in 1923, should Congress not take further action (and it seems unlikely there will be enough backing to extend it any further), then you can make and sell as many Steamboat Willie knock offs that you like.  But still all modern versions of the mouse will still be protected, so it won't open the gates to any Mickey Mouse knock-offs.

[justicebeliever]

6 minutes ago, subbacultchas said:

This. again? What are we going to cover here that we didn't cover during May and June?

It came up in August and July as well...It's recurring, like the Full Moon.  The moon won't do anything different this month than last month, but the Full Moons keep on coming.

[subbacultchas]

Just now, justicebeliever said:

It came up in August and July as well...It's recurring, like the Full Moon.  The moon won't do anything different this month than last month, but the Full Moons keep on coming.

True. And I shouldn't be so flippant, new folks are probably not aware of the older threads debating this, and might not think to search for them. Also, we have had some GM's chiming in so it's not exactly a thread that went nowhere.

But man, something in my stomach flips a little when I log in and see a new one.

[Abraxus]

We could save some time/effort by just pasting a link to the previous threads that hit on this topic, every time we see a new one pop-up.  But, what's the fun in that? 😉

Edited September 11, 2019 by Abraxus

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, subbacultchas said:

True. And I shouldn't be so flippant, new folks are probably not aware of the older threads debating this, and might not think to search for them. Also, we have had some GM's chiming in so it's not exactly a thread that went nowhere.

But man, something in my stomach flips a little when I log in and see a new one.

I'm inclined to agree - perhaps this is a topic worth stickying?

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, subbacultchas said:

True. And I shouldn't be so flippant, new folks are probably not aware of the older threads debating this, and might not think to search for them. Also, we have had some GM's chiming in so it's not exactly a thread that went nowhere.

But man, something in my stomach flips a little when I log in and see a new one.

I feel this way every year when school starts and traffic is suddenly a mess.

I have never had kids, never been on the school cadence, gets me everytime, suddenly one day traffic sucks for two months while everyone learns new routes and learns to drive to HS.

 

I often forget what I have known for years is new to a whole lot of people.

 

I try to rememebr that when I interact with them...I fail often...

[justicebeliever]

@Oubliette_Redtried on the first page of this.  I've tried as well...It's just too engaging a topic for people.