copyrighted chars and npcs in game

[Xeres]

37 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

In common-law jurisdictions like the US and the UK, there is a two-pronged test for proving copyright infringement of visual works.  Barring the simpler situation where the defendant has outright said "I plan to copy the plaintiff's work", the plaintiff must prove (1) that the defendant had access to the plaintiff's work, and (2) substantial or probative similarities between the two works.  Unfortunately, the second prong is by definition subjective in a "we'll know it when we see it" way; there's no strict formula or rubric that you can use to show substantial similarity.  The distinction between homage, unintentional similarity, transformative use and plagiarism can be very fuzzy.

Thanks for clearing that up.  I hope this doesn't become an issue because it seems it'll be a real pain for you guys if you need to enforce this.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Xeres

[jubakumbi]

25 minutes ago, Troo said:

Anyone who thinks they are too big to 'care' is mistaken. Use of copyright or trade marked materials is what it is.

 

Powers - Costumes - Names - Catch phrases. Copying all of that could be problematic. Enabling behavior could be liable.

 

Blocking names could be the simple/easy solution and also then documents a good faith effort to curb objectionable activities.

Objectionable to whom, exactly?

The IP holders are welcome to contact HC is they have an issue.

So far, based on the GM responces, this is not an issue.

 

So for whom, exactly, are we trying to 'curb objectionable activities'?

 

IP holders do not want others to make profit or represent themsleves as the IP holder in an effort to dilute market shares.

All I see are rapid fans showing love for those IPs, not 'objectionable activities.'

 

The reality is that there is not an issue currently other than busy-bodies and hall-monitors and if an IP holder raises an issue, it wil be dealt with as needed, none of which implies, IMO, a reason to start making rules and restricting the creative output of the players or shaming them for not having the creative abililities others do...

[Frostbiter]

This conversation reminds me of when Jim Butcher got one of his own characters generic-ed for being a copyright violation on live.

[Rodumas]

And with all these new posts..i find I still don't care about other people's issues and anal definitions on what constitutes copy or no copy. Meh, this conversation bores me now that I've  added my two inf. Have fun guys \o

Edited September 12, 2019 by Rodumas

[MunkiLord]

What bugs me the most about all of this is the terrible attitude to tell people to be more creative or original. Some people simply lack that ability. It's the same as some people are just bad with math no matter how hard they try.

 

And the way some people talk about it, they come across as making moral judgements on other people's lack of creativity, which is completely ridiculous. If you judge someone for having difficulty reading or the inability to do calculus, most people will see you as a jerk and/or bully. Judging someone for their lack of creativity is no different. 

[jubakumbi]

21 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

What bugs me the most about all of this is the terrible attitude to tell people to be more creative or original. Some people simply lack that ability. It's the same as some people are just bad with math no matter how hard they try.

 

And the way some people talk about it, they come across as making moral judgements on other people's lack of creativity, which is completely ridiculous. If you judge someone for having difficulty reading or the inability to do calculus, most people will see you as a jerk and/or bully. Judging someone for their lack of creativity is no different. 

As the saying goes these days (or at some point, I am old), this x 1000...

Edited September 12, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[PaxArcana]

11 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

What bugs me the most about all of this is the terrible attitude to tell people to be more creative or original. Some people simply lack that ability.

So, wait.

One moment, people making copycats are being very creative to come up with good copies of established hero costumes, and we should just accept that they chose to express their creativity in that way.

The next moment, people making copycats are unable to be creative, and we should just accept that their copy is the best those poor benighted souls can come up with.

...

Which one is it, really?  Because it cannot be both - they are literally mutually exclusionary.

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

So, wait.

One moment, people making copycats are being very creative to come up with good copies of established hero costumes, and we should just accept that they chose to express their creativity in that way.

The next moment, people making copycats are unable to be creative, and we should just accept that their copy is the best those poor benighted souls can come up with.

...

Which one is it, really?  Because it cannot be both - they are literally mutually exclusionary.

It very well can be both. Some people are extremely creative using the tools at hand to make a copy and looks fantastic. Other people lack the ability to do even that and their copies are terrible, or maybe their ability maxes out and recreating things and even somewhat original characters are beyond their talents. Just like some people are great at physics but bad at algebra even though they share some basics. Judging someone's lack of creativity as some sort of failing is no different than judging someone because they are a slow reader.

[jubakumbi]

8 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

So, wait.

One moment, people making copycats are being very creative to come up with good copies of established hero costumes, and we should just accept that they chose to express their creativity in that way.

The next moment, people making copycats are unable to be creative, and we should just accept that their copy is the best those poor benighted souls can come up with.

...

Which one is it, really?  Because it cannot be both - they are literally mutually exclusionary.

And this is someone trying hard, really hard, to put someone elses words in the worst possible light, in an effort to discredit them.

Add to that the fact this post continues to insult the creative abilities of others.

 

Why?

What is to be gained by trying to mis-represent this data?

 

And again, why should people that simply have less ability or desire to create unique characters in a video game have to suffer such abuse and ridicule?

 

Why?

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

And again, why should people that simply have less ability or desire to create unique characters in a video game have to suffer such abuse and ridicule?

 

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

they don't like it, think people shouldn't do it and want to dictate to other people how to play.

[jubakumbi]

Well @ShardWarrior, while I can accept the fact that sometimes the only answer is 'mean brain chemistry', that answer is not terribly satisfying. 🙂

 

Additiionally, until I hear whay from the pepole doing it, it's just an inference.

 

The only answer to why so far has been 'because it might get us shutdown someday', without any real evidence, only FUD.

 

I don't want to claim I know the motives of these posters w/o them reveling those motives themsleves.

We can only speculate there, but we can highlight the negative impact these outlooks have on people...

[PaxArcana]

29 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Judging someone's lack of creativity as some sort of failing is no different than judging someone because they are a slow reader.

Not at all true, when that supposed lack of creativity is being used as an excuse to flaunt both law and ethics.

 

I'd rather see someone playing a bad original costume-and-name, than a really good copycat.

25 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

And again, why should people that simply have less ability or desire to create unique characters in a video game have to suffer such abuse and ridicule?

They only have to not infringe on someone else's creativity to avoid "ridicule".

 

18 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

they don't like it, think people shouldn't do it and want to dictate to other people

You're right.

 

I don't like seeing someone else's creative work misappropriated.  I think people should not do that.  And I want other people to recognize that.

 

It's not about dictating how anyone plays the game.

It's about that name/costume/etc belongs to someone else.  Copyright (and Trademark) infringement is theft, and theft (for reasons other than survival) is wrong.

[MunkiLord]

3 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Not at all true, when that supposed lack of creativity is being used as an excuse to flaunt both law and ethics.

 

I'd rather see someone playing a bad original costume-and-name, than a really good copycat.

They only have to not infringe on someone else's creativity to avoid "ridicule".

 

You're right.

 

I don't like seeing someone else's creative work misappropriated.  I think people should not do that.  And I want other people to recognize that.

 

It's not about dictating how anyone plays the game.

It's about that name/costume/etc belongs to someone else.  Copyright (and Trademark) infringement is theft, and theft (for reasons other than survival) is wrong.

I mentioned this earlier the thread but I think it needs to be repeated, judging people for infringement when playing on a pirate server is pure hypocrisy.

[ShardWarrior]

18 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Well @ShardWarrior, while I can accept the fact that sometimes the only answer is 'mean brain chemistry', that answer is not terribly satisfying. 🙂

 

Additiionally, until I hear whay from the pepole doing it, it's just an inference.

 

The only answer to why so far has been 'because it might get us shutdown someday', without any real evidence, only FUD.

 

I don't want to claim I know the motives of these posters w/o them reveling those motives themsleves.

We can only speculate there, but we can highlight the negative impact these outlooks have on people...

Call it an educated guess. 😉

[PaxArcana]

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

I mentioned this earlier the thread but I think it needs to be repeated, judging people for infringement when playing on a pirate server is pure hypocrisy.

No, it's not.  This isn't (strictly speaking) a pirate server.

 

If NCSoft wanted these servers shut down, they would have been.  Months ago.  Their decision not to do so, represents a state of tacit permission for them to operate. 

[jubakumbi]

10 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Not at all true, when that supposed lack of creativity is being used as an excuse to flaunt both law and ethics.

 

I'd rather see someone playing a bad original costume-and-name, than a really good copycat.

They only have to not infringe on someone else's creativity to avoid "ridicule".

 

You're right.

 

I don't like seeing someone else's creative work misappropriated.  I think people should not do that.  And I want other people to recognize that.

 

It's not about dictating how anyone plays the game.

It's about that name/costume/etc belongs to someone else.  Copyright (and Trademark) infringement is theft, and theft (for reasons other than survival) is wrong.

So by this, almost all fan art is to be litigated against and prevented?

Really?

Loving an IP so much you want to emulate it is a bad thing in your world?

Wow.

The IP holders I have personally spoken with over the years at conventions, in thier homes, at parties, etc., typically love the fan made creations.

Pretty much across the board...so your outlook, based on personal interactions and general infromation, is not one held by most IP holders...

 

'Do you want to date my Avavtar' comes to mind....

Edited September 12, 2019 by jubakumbi
PS

[ShardWarrior]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

The IP holders I have personally spoken with over the years at conventions, in thier homes, at parties, etc., typically love the fan made creations.

Pretty much across the board...so your outlook, based on personal interactions and general infromation, is not one held by most IP holders...

Same here.  Can't tell you how many artists/authors I've chatted with over the years at various Comic Cons who absolutely love fans dressing up and keeping their creations alive and relevant. 

[PaxArcana]

You can't compare real-world cosplay, with creating a copycat character in a game.  That's apples and oranges.

 

The closest parallel would be my own example, of Patriot in CO, who has an in-character cosplay as Superman.  I didn't make Superman and then play him in the game; I made Patriot to play ... and then (in-character) Patriot chose to cosplay as Superman.

[Abraxus]

Nobody here is trying to profit off their IP.  Hopefully, that classifies it as innocuous enough to just be looked upon as animated Cosplay.

[MunkiLord]

18 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

No, it's not.  This isn't (strictly speaking) a pirate server.

 

If NCSoft wanted these servers shut down, they would have been.  Months ago.  Their decision not to do so, represents a state of tacit permission for them to operate. 

Oh, it absolutely is infringement. There is no current license. And anybody seeding the game torrent is also committing infringement. It is absolutely, unequivocally hypocrisy. You're rationalizing your copyright infringement while judging that of others. Which isn't really that big of a deal, we're all hypocrites one way or another.

Edited September 12, 2019 by MunkiLord

[Sidious]

making a homage character is nothing more than in-game Cos-play.

 

Let people have their fun.

[subbacultchas]

On it today Munkilord. Please stop, you don't need this much reputation do you?

[jubakumbi]

7 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

You can't compare real-world cosplay, with creating a copycat character in a game.  That's apples and oranges.

 

The closest parallel would be my own example, of Patriot in CO, who has an in-character cosplay as Superman.  I didn't make Superman and then play him in the game; I made Patriot to play ... and then (in-character) Patriot chose to cosplay as Superman.

We can and we will, you are not the dictator of thought.

 

Your opinion is not the end-all-be-all of the situation, thanks, you are not even a lawyer TMK.

 

Simply because your opinion differs on a definition of modern cosplay/homage does give it the power change reality.

 

Now you are just arguing that in-game avatars are not cosplay.

How about fan-made creations, fan-art, use whatever pedantic term suits you.

 

Bottom line is that until an IP holder says differently, it's all good and IME, encouraged, by the very people you seem to be 'concern trolling' for...

 

So yeah, I will compare these things because it is a valid comparison, regardless of your opinion.

[Trademarked Name]

To be on the safe side, they should alter the game so that costumes and names are ONLY randomized. 

As someone else stated before, everything is derivative of something else. What you term "inspiration" to another person is "copying IP" even if it is just a derivation of the name they use.

Now, hear me out. No more chosen costume pieces means that there is no longer a of even unintentionally falling into the rabbit hole of  "that + that = Spider-dude -> Lawsuit". We are COMPLETELY covered if we can randomize the process. And prove that the game randomly grabs names from a dictionary list of available words and also randomly generates the costume pieces. The second part of this is already done by CoH! We just got to shut-off the function to change individual pieces.

The name part we just need to import already existing word generator software and have it pick for us.....I don't know let's say 3 words at random for a name.  We can even have it do 2 Adjectives and 1 noun. You'll be able to hit the RANDOMIZE button infinitely but the odds of coming up with a unique trademarked name will be impossible! Perfect solution! Everyone is happy! There is a party in the streets and people kissing! Old ladies stop trying to wrestle purses out of the hands of innocent Hellions!

 

How many people are with me on this? Up vote my idea!

And google "random word generator" to retroactively rename your toons!!!

Sincerely, 

Racial New Caption

(The hero formally known as Rocketeur)

***EDIT***
Now we just need o deal with the problem of people complaining: "Now that there's 1,000 character slots, people are hoarding all of the good randomized names! It took nearly 16 trillion attempts to get the name "NAME IS TAKEN" just to find out that the name is already taken!!!

And that wasn't even the hard part: The hard part was spending 2 years learning perl to create the subroutine to make the randomize occur sequentially and cross-reference a name list of my choosing from SQL. And then the 11 months it took for that name to appear! Good grief, Charlie Brown!"

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Rocketeur
egnlish words speekin'

[Ya'dig]

If DCUO isn't stopping this type of game-play then why would Marvel, DC or any other IP come after CoH or NCSoft? I play DCUO on and off and I've created many a "homage" or downright rip offs of characters and nobody cares. I'm pretty sure that CoH is not even a blip on Marvel or DC's radar so this argument is moot especially since we are relegated to "private server" status. Now if HC decides to advertise "COME MAKE YOUR FAVORITE MARVEL OR DC CHARACTER WITH US!!!" then we'd have a problem.... maybe.

 

Also, why would a player feel the need to tell another player how to build their toons? It's like a little kid telling another kid how to play with their toys. Let them be and, as I've said before, let the devs worry about that stuff. As a dev posted earlier - it's not a rule, it's not a big deal and it doesn't look it will ever be an issue. They did also say that doesn't mean it can't change... just as with anything in life.