Two questions for tanks

[arkieboy72472]

I have been loving my dark/dark tank once I got my endurance issues out of the way, with all of the toggles and everything. He is hard capped with resistance to about 4-5 out of all possible types. He is very heavily IO'd out as all my guys are. On tanks, I tend to go for as many resist caps as possible and then as good of all around defense as possible.

 

For the sake of this question, I am going to assume you take Combat Jumping, Tough, and Weave.

Which tanks, *reasonably* slotted, can hard cap the most resists and which can hard cap the most defense?

(in this question, *reasonably* means without skipping commonly taken powers or purposely gimping a build for the sake of outcome)

 

Lastly, for stone tanks only, is it possible to build it in such a way that the negative effects on your run speed and recharge speed can be canceled out while in granite (in other words, zeroing out the negative effects of granite as much as possible? I have wanted to make a stone/ice tank but I was wondering about having to have a pocket Kin.

[Hyperstrike]

Most Resist-based tanks can hard-cap Resists (Fire, Elec, Rad).

If you're going to slather defense on top of a Resist-centric build, yeah.  Even though, in some cases it'll strip off faster than paint in a sandblaster...
A decent bit of defense always comes in handy.

As for negating out Granite's downsides alone?  Yes, you can mostly negate the downsides of JUST Granite.  But, whereas on other Tanks, this gives you HUGE speed and damage BUFFS, it JUST digs out out of the Granite hole...
And you STILL have to run Rooted for your Mez protection.  You'll NEVER completely negate it all unless you go around full-time with a pocket Kin.

While Granite is still THE Gold Standard for absolute toughness, something like Invuln is 98% as tough, without all the crippling downsides.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Hyperstrike

[Frostweaver]

I was gonna say. Stone armor had 1 trick. 1 godlike trick. But with the advent of IO sets, That trick just isn't unique enough to be worth it's downsides anymore.

The set needs serious help, or at LEAST it needs it's damage penalty removed. It's trick just isn't special enough to warrant it anymore. Or it needs a better trick.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Redlynne]

7 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

It's trick just isn't special enough to warrant it anymore. Or it needs a better trick.

Actually, it just needs to be more than a One Trick Pony™.

[Brutal Justice]

14 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

And you STILL have to run Rooted for your Mez protection.  You'll NEVER completely negate it all unless you go around full-time with a pocket Kin.

Granite has its own mez protection.  Running rooted just gives you double protection and regen

[Frostweaver]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Actually, it just needs to be more than a One Trick Pony™.

 

Stone Armor needs more cowbell.

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Mr.Sinister said:

Granite has its own mez protection.  Running rooted just gives you double protection and regen

With Granite, it's only Status Protection.

With Rooted, it's Protection AND Resistance
As well as some massive Debuff resistance for Endurance and Recovery.

[Hyperstrike]

10 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

I was gonna say. Stone armor had 1 trick. 1 godlike trick. But with the advent of IO sets, That trick just isn't unique enough to be worth it's downsides anymore.

The set needs serious help, or at LEAST it needs it's damage penalty removed. It's trick just isn't special enough to warrant it anymore. Or it needs a better trick.

If they simply LESSENED the -Spd and -Recharge penalties, I'd count that as a win.
Limit -Spd to -65% of the character's power-free movement, divided up 10% Mud Pots, 20% Rooted, 25% Granite.
Leave -Jump the way it is.
-30% Recharge

This would result in a tank that doesn't get automatically left behind by it's own team and would provide some ACTUAL utility to improving run speed.  Because, on a Stone tanker right now, improving run speed is essentially a trap for wasting slots on.
 

[Cutter]

To answer the defense cap question, all the mainly +def sets can reach the regular content softcap with varying amounts of effort. Heck, I'm mediocre at best and I can build an SR tanker to incarnate softcaps without purple sets for goodness sake. Of the mainly +res sets I think Invul is your best bet for hitting some of the defense softcaps.

[JCMcBoo]

Teleport fixes the issues with Rooted. Just turn on Rooted, teleport into the middle of the mob and go to work. Thematically you can imagine your characters sinking into the ground at their feet and then reappearing amidst the enemy.

 

It's a single extra power choice that doesn't require any extra slotting to be effective and players can take it at level 4.

Edited September 20, 2019 by JCMcBoo
spelling

[Hyperstrike]

5 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

 

Stone Armor needs more cowbell.

I was thinking more of an MLP version of Gizmoduck.

[Frostweaver]

1 hour ago, JCMcBoo said:

Teleport fixes the issues with Rooted. Just turn on Rooted, teleport into the middle of the mob and go to work. Thematically you can imagine your characters sinking into the ground at their feet and then reappearing amidst the enemy.

 

It's a single extra power choice that doesn't require any extra slotting to be effective and players can take it at level 4.

It's an extra pool choice you are FORCED to take in order to do your JOB effectively.

It's like Dominators being pathetically weak unless they pick up hasten.

if there was a short-range 'earth meld' power attached to granite that appears like arcane teleport's, That would be one thing. But no one should be forced into taking a particular pool power in order to play your role effectively. No one else is so forced into losing a choice like that.

[Redlynne]

4 hours ago, JCMcBoo said:

Teleport fixes the issues with Rooted. Just turn on Rooted, teleport into the middle of the mob and go to work. Thematically you can imagine your characters sinking into the ground at their feet and then reappearing amidst the enemy.

 

It's a single extra power choice that doesn't require any extra slotting to be effective and players can take it at level 4.

Explain to me why Rooted shouldn't offer a sub-power for Teleportation ... just like how Mystic Flight offers a sub-power for Teleportation ... since almost every Stone Tanker "has to" take Teleport as a workaround to being Rooted by Rooted.

[JCMcBoo]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Explain to me why Rooted shouldn't offer a sub-power for Teleportation ... just like how Mystic Flight offers a sub-power for Teleportation ... since almost every Stone Tanker "has to" take Teleport as a workaround to being Rooted by Rooted.

Not being a developer I can only speculate but I would say that one reason is that Mystic Flight is specifically a travel power rather than one power in a defensive power set.  By your logic Super Reflexes should offer Physical Perfection as a sub power to offset its endurance drain and the lack of a self heal.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Rooted in it's current state either. It's actually worse than it used to be. At first you couldn't move, then you could move but agonizingly slowly. Right now if you move with Rooted active, it drops and takes 4 seconds to recharge during which time you can move at normal speed without mez protection.

 

Here's an idea for a fix.

 

Rooted stays active as long as you are immobile. If you move the animation/effect drops but you get 4 seconds of residual (possibly weaker) mez protection and the ability to move at normal speed. If you stop within the 4 second period the animation/effect reappears and you are back to full mez protection as long as you remain immobile.

 

That would allow stone tankers to move around in a battle situation without fear of being "mezzed". A quick and dirty test puts that at roughly 40 yards with no debuffs to movement which is probably more than is needed in a battle situation and, depending on the proximity of groups on a mission, could possibly allow a stone tanker to move from group to group without having to drop Rooted.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by JCMcBoo

[Hyperstrike]

12 hours ago, JCMcBoo said:

Teleport fixes the issues with Rooted.

No.  No it REALLY doesn't.
ESPECIALLY with the targeting halo being so kludgy, and ALL teleport powers in this game being botchable by Stupid Camera Tricks.

It makes dynamic combat entry a GINORMOUS (think "Rularuu's bigger, meaner brother") pain in the sit-upon.

Sorry, just my not-so-humble opinion.

[Hyperstrike]

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(3), Rct-ResDam%:50(3)
Level 1: Jab -- Hct-Dmg:50(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg:50(5), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(5), Hct-Acc/Rchg:50(7), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), Hct-Dam%:50(9)
Level 2: Stone Skin -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(9), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(11), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(13), ImpArm-ResPsi:40(13)
Level 4: Haymaker -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx:50(19), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg:50(19), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), Mk'Bit-Dam%:50(23)
Level 6: Earth's Embrace -- ImpArm-ResPsi:40(A), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(23)
Level 8: Mud Pots -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg:50(25), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(25), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(27), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(27), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%:50(29)
Level 10: Taunt -- PrfZng-Taunt:50(A), PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg:50(33), PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(46), PrfZng-Acc/Rchg:50(46), PrfZng-Taunt/Rng:50(46), PrfZng-Dam%:50(48)
Level 12: Rooted -- Prv-Heal:50(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx:50(29), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), Prv-Heal/Rchg:50(31), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx:50(31), Prv-Absorb%:50(33)
Level 14: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(A)
Level 16: Brimstone Armor -- ImpArm-ResPsi:40(A)
Level 18: Crystal Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(33), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(34), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(34), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(34), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(36)
Level 22: Tough -- ImpArm-ResPsi:40(A), Ags-Psi/Status:50(36)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(36)
Level 26: Minerals -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(37), RctRtc-Pcptn:20(50)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(37)
Level 32: Granite Armor -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(37), UnbGrd-ResDam:50(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(39), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40)
Level 35: Teleport -- Range-I:50(A), Range-I:50(48), EndRdx-I:50(48), WntGif-ResSlow:50(50)
Level 38: Hurl -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(40), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(40), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(42), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(42), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc:50(42)
Level 41: Foot Stomp -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(45)
Level 44: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(45)
Level 47: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(50)
Level 49: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(15), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(17), EndMod-I:50(17)
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
------------

 

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[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, JCMcBoo said:

By your logic Super Reflexes should offer Physical Perfection as a sub power to offset its endurance drain and the lack of a self heal.

[Lifeblood2112]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 6:11 PM, arkieboy72472 said:

I have been loving my dark/dark tank once I got my endurance issues out of the way, with all of the toggles and everything. He is hard capped with resistance to about 4-5 out of all possible types. He is very heavily IO'd out as all my guys are. On tanks, I tend to go for as many resist caps as possible and then as good of all around defense as possible.

 

For the sake of this question, I am going to assume you take Combat Jumping, Tough, and Weave.

Which tanks, *reasonably* slotted, can hard cap the most resists and which can hard cap the most defense?

(in this question, *reasonably* means without skipping commonly taken powers or purposely gimping a build for the sake of outcome)

 

Lastly, for stone tanks only, is it possible to build it in such a way that the negative effects on your run speed and recharge speed can be canceled out while in granite (in other words, zeroing out the negative effects of granite as much as possible? I have wanted to make a stone/ice tank but I was wondering about having to have a pocket Kin.

It's possible to get a stoner to a normal run speed and even faster but not without some gimping.  Best route is to take sj for normal movement but tp for when in granite mode, then tp from mob to mob.  Stone is the best tank imo hands down.  Mine has all typed defences capped (s/l is at 59.5%) except psi and all typed damage capped except psi.  If you want to do well with Psi play a dark/dark tank.  As for dark/dark I loved mine and she could tank any AV reasonably well but is not a stoner.  As for gimping tanks it depends on what you mean.  Tanks are the only AT I play where damage, while attended to, still comes last to his sole job of meat shield.

 

[Frostweaver]

At this point, almost every single Tanker can cap most resistances and all defenses. And at the same time, crank their damage, recharge, regen, taunt, and HP through the roof.

So... What exactly does stone offer for paying in damage, speed, and power pools for the similar ability?

Oh right. a cheap yellow-io build. which you outgrow in like 1 farm.


It needs only 2 changes. Rooted should be changed to 'grounded' which reduces it's protection when you are not touching the ground (like you cannot click burn when you are in the air) but doesn't de-toggle. and the damage penalty should be removed. That would make it roughly equal to bio, which, while not top-tier in all situations, would still make it the premier ease of capping set while allowing the other penalties to be overcome with expensive IO sets... just like every other tanker set.

Make Stone Armor Great Again.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Shoulung]

Just a thought, if all sets end up at the same place at the end of the day, then there’s really no point to ever playing a second tanker after your first.

[JCMcBoo]

2 hours ago, Shoulung said:

Just a thought, if all sets end up at the same place at the end of the day, then there’s really no point to ever playing a second tanker after your first.

You could easily say the same thing about any archetype in the game. I personally disagree, different power sets and combinations of power sets play differently, pre-IO.

 

I would personally play a Katana/SR scrapper or SR/Katana tanker more conservatively than their Dark Melee/SR or SR/Dark Melee counter parts. Both offensive sets supplement your defenses but Dark Melee provides a self heal and an endurance buff that Katana does not.

[Frostweaver]

They don't wind up in the same place at the end of the day. Their tools and secondary effects are very, very different.

That's why i despise SR on tankers so much. because they HAVE no tools or secondary effects.

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

That's why i despise SR on tankers so much. because they HAVE no tools or secondary effects.

Passive scaling resists and the best DDR in the game aren't good tools/secondary effects?

[Frostweaver]

What do they do for your team?

[Shoulung]

21 hours ago, JCMcBoo said:

You could easily say the same thing about any archetype in the game. I personally disagree, different power sets and combinations of power sets play differently, pre-IO.

 

I would personally play a Katana/SR scrapper or SR/Katana tanker more conservatively than their Dark Melee/SR or SR/Dark Melee counter parts. Both offensive sets supplement your defenses but Dark Melee provides a self heal and an endurance buff that Katana does not.

My statement was in reply to someone saying ‘remove all the penalties with expensive IO sets, the same as every other tanker sets.’ For me, the fun is learning how to play effectively within each set, not trying to make it function like all the other sets I play.