Scrapper Melee Primary Testing: "Standard" environment

[Galaxy Brain]

Well, what would be the "high"?

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Well, what would be the "high"?

Whew. I wouldn't know, I'm pretty new to the ways of Scrapperlock, but it would vary by set I guess.

[Galaxy Brain]

Well, we could try and just cram as many purples as we can that would fit each set.... the idea of course being that we are still trying to push the primaries up to see how they perform.

 

Should probably avoid non universal procs in WP for taunt or -ToHit, as well as try not to use the ATO sets if possible since they have more rng.

 

@Sir Myshkin, any thoughts?

Edited October 9, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Well, we could try and just cram as many purples as we can that would fit each set.... the idea of course being that we are still trying to push the primaries up to see how they perform.

 

Should probably avoid non universal procs in WP for taunt or -ToHit, as well as try not to use the ATO sets if possible since they have more rng.

 

@Sir Myshkin, any thoughts?

Definately the ATOs-funny thing about those according to mids - in the case of MA - cause the whole set to function differently depending on what power you slot them in. Ie more average damage on other powers.

[Galaxy Brain]

Best bet may be to just try and hit certain thresholds as each set would be different. Such as:

1. Hit at least +20% extra S/L defense to mirror performance we saw from Parry Powers
2. Hit at least +X% recharge (70%?)
3. Place at least 1 proc where possible in your offensive powers
4. Slot all the global uniques (Panacea, etc) that you can

Everything else around those goals would sort of be gravy based on the primary set in question. Adding in other pool powers would help here too.

[Infinitum]

55 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Best bet may be to just try and hit certain thresholds as each set would be different. Such as:

1. Hit at least +20% extra S/L defense to mirror performance we saw from Parry Powers
2. Hit at least +X% recharge (70%?)
3. Place at least 1 proc where possible in your offensive powers
4. Slot all the global uniques (Panacea, etc) that you can

Everything else around those goals would sort of be gravy based on the primary set in question. Adding in other pool powers would help here too.

Well What about this, max level no strings attached build. 

 

I think most of us here can accomplish that.  I've already got a pretty good feel for psy and rad.

 

And I think there is enough of us where the data points will be pretty accurate anyway, I'm more than a little curious to see how that pans out.

 

The only question would be what would we run on +4/8?

[Galaxy Brain]

A no strings attached build could be anything though which could skew results. Aiming for what most people shoot for in builds I think would not only be representative of most builds but also appropriately push the sets in ways that we would see more uniform results. 

 

Say I build to softcap everything + tons of procs and you build for tons and tons of recharge instead on the same power combos, those would be two totally different outcomes.

[Infinitum]

36 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

A no strings attached build could be anything though which could skew results. Aiming for what most people shoot for in builds I think would not only be representative of most builds but also appropriately push the sets in ways that we would see more uniform results. 

 

Say I build to softcap everything + tons of procs and you build for tons and tons of recharge instead on the same power combos, those would be two totally different outcomes.

Thats why I think it would be a fair represented result, by how people look at the set would represent how it performs for that type of set up.

 

I think you should also run with set guidelines, but also seeing how that would compare with an unrestricted test would be interesting and maybe illuminating on a scale we havent thought about.

[Haijinx]

I think you should use the best build for each set you can manage, since some sets can slot more procs than others, which is a performance consideration.

[Sir Myshkin]

10 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

any thoughts?

Oh man, I had a nice, solid post figured out, and then the browser ate it when the wifi on my surface dropped at work so... here we are again, with a little tl;dr'd version of before:

 

You'll have to look at this IO side of things probably in the same way I did when looking for builds that I could bend survivability on for my Proc testing. Of course Tanks are a lot more flexible in that avenue, but since you're going down the lane of looking for a consistent base line, staying with Willpower as your secondary is probably the wisest choice. It'll still net perform the same areas, but now you'll be able to grow those aspects. The process I approached from with proc building was to maximize as many areas of the build as I possibly could without inclusion of any attacks sets as, in that scenario, I would be completely devoting those to procs, and thus no sets.

 

Do that same thing here, build out for max Willpower potential without including the attack sets, and then you can see what options that may provide to fill in on a set-by-set basis.

 

I would also evaluate whether you want to include Procs into the equation. Technically you get better performance out of them in a high-recharge build that doesn't place any inherent recharge in the powers themselves, and skews your numbers a bit. In general, procs are going to give you a metric value that's not 100% truthful of the state of that set without them. You'll also get wildly differing time points between sets that can use -Res procs versus those that can't. Your dynamic for clearing a room also changes in things like Shockwave when you put the KD proc in it.

 

If you build a static base for WP and let others tailor the attacks to fit what they want to maximize, it would give you a pseudo platform that has fewer variations of significance that you couldn't take one run set and see something insanely different from another, using the same primary/secondary.

 

Also, pool powers, I'd say Tough, Weave, CJ, Maneuvers, Hasten, and that's it from a "use" stand point.

 

I put this base blank together for you, as a suggestion. It should allow (with some of the Winter sets) the ability to hit 40-45% on the elemental defenses, and capping S/L resists is trivial. I would (personally) use this as the standard, non-changeable base line, giving freedom of choice on the set/slotting for attacks. This leaves enough to 6-slot six attacks, and 3-slot the BU. If someone really wanted/needed to steal a couple of extra slots, Physical Perfection and Quick Recovery, pull one of those slots.

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: War Mace
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(5), Empty(34), Empty(34), Empty(36), Empty(36)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(3), UnbGrd-Max HP%(5)
Level 2: Mind Over Body -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(7), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(9)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), Prv-Absorb%(9)
Level 6: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(13), RedFrt-Def(13), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(27), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), RedFrt-EndRdx(33)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(11), Ksm-ToHit+(11)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Tough -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(15), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(15), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(17), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(19), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(19), Pnc-Heal(21)
Level 18: Weave -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(23), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(23), Rct-Def/Rchg(25), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Rct-ResDam%(27)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(21)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 24: Super Speed -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 26: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(39), Empty(40), Empty(40), Empty(40), Empty(42)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(29), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(29), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFrt-Def(31), RedFrt-EndRdx(31)
Level 30: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(36), Empty(50)
Level 32: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(37), Empty(37), Empty(37), Empty(39), Empty(39)
Level 35: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 38: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(42), Empty(43), Empty(43), Empty(43), Empty(46)
Level 41: Physical Perfection -- RgnTss-Regen+(A), PrfShf-End%(42)
Level 44: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(45), Empty(45), Empty(45), Empty(46), Empty(46)
Level 47: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(48), Empty(48), Empty(48), Empty(50), Empty(50)
Level 49: Strength of Will -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(34)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(3)
------------

 

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Edit to add a hypothetical "completed" build going off the "blank." I did pull the extra two slots for relevance, and even moved one off an attack to catch a set bonus to balance defense numbers and show a minor tweak that doesn't break the core structure while packing in rounding sets in the attacks. Also went with War Mace just because it doesn't have a ranged attack, so it was going to be a tad harder to get E/N and wanted to show a path there for it. Despite trying to keep to a guide line... this is... actually a pretty straight-forward build that pretty much anyone would probably land on trying to raise their values up.

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: War Mace
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Pulverize -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(34), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(36), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(3), UnbGrd-Max HP%(5)
Level 2: Mind Over Body -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(7), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(7), Ags-Psi/Status(9), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), Prv-Absorb%(9)
Level 6: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(13), RedFrt-Def(13), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(27), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), RedFrt-EndRdx(33)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(11), Ksm-ToHit+(11)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam(15), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(15), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(17), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(19), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(19), Pnc-Heal(21)
Level 18: Weave -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(23), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(23), Rct-Def/Rchg(25), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Rct-ResDam%(27)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- PrfShf-EndMod(A)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 24: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-Travel(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(42), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(46)
Level 26: Jawbreaker -- SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(39), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(42)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(29), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(29), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFrt-Def(31), RedFrt-EndRdx(31)
Level 30: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36), GssSynFr--Build%(50)
Level 32: Clobber -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(37), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(39), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(39)
Level 35: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 38: Whirling Mace -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Physical Perfection -- RgnTss-Regen+(A)
Level 44: Shatter -- Erd-Dmg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), ClvBlo-Acc/Dmg(45), ClvBlo-Dmg/EndRdx(46), ClvBlo-Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Crowd Control -- Erd-Dmg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), ClvBlo-Acc/Dmg(48), ClvBlo-Dmg/EndRdx(50), ClvBlo-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Strength of Will -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(34)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(3)
------------

 

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Edited October 10, 2019 by Sir Myshkin

[Galaxy Brain]

So, we have at least 5 runs per set (Kinetic Melee I'm keeping at 5 since it still averaged 7:19 per run...)

 

Here are the current standings:

 

 

Breaking it down per 10 sec intervals:

 

1. Titan Weapons = -0:40+ (Results split between runs with and without a cone power used)
2. Psy Melee = -0:30+ (about 5 sec slower than top)
3. Staff, Katana = -0:20+
4. Claws, War Mace, Battle Axe = -0:10+
5. Spines, Dual Blades, Street Justice, Rad Melee, Savage, Broadsword = -/+ 0:10
6. Martial Arts, Ice Melee = 0:10+
7. Elec Melee = 0:20+
8. Fiery Melee = 0:30+
9. -gap-
10. Kinetic Melee, Dark Melee = 1:00+

 

 

 

Lets look at just the average resist values without the chance to encounter: 

 

 

1. Titan Weapons, Psy Melee = -0:40+
2. Staff = -0:30+
3. Katana, War Mace = -0:20+
4. Claws = -0:10+
5. Rad, Battle Axe, Street Justice, Dual Blades, Savage = -/+ 0:10
6. Martial Arts, Elec Melee, Broadsword, Ice Melee, Spines = 0:10+
7. Fiery Melee = 0:20+
8. -gap-
9. Dark Melee = 0:50+
10. Kinetic Melee = 1:00+

 

 

 

And now what changes with the ADJ Average resist applied:

(Taking into account the chance of running into a resistant enemy if we were to throw RNG enemies at the sets)

 

 

1. Titan Weapons, Psy Melee = -0:40+
2. Staff, Katana = -0:20+
3. War Mace, Claws = -0:10+
4. Battle Axe, Rad, Street Justice, Dual Blades, Spines, Savage = -/+ 0:10
5. Broadsword, Martial Arts, Ice Melee, Elec Melee = 0:10+
6. Fiery Melee = 0:20+
7. -gap-
8. Kinetic Melee, Dark Melee = 1:00+

 

 

Patterns at this time:

Sets with reliable AoE damage and AoE / Self mitigation (Knockdowns usually) have the best clear times. Titan, Psy, Staff, War Mace and Claws all have reliable methods to knock people on their butts + Deal good damage. Katana, Staff and TW can boost their own defense in melee range and deal good damage.

 

Sets near the bottom may have very good Mitigation or Damage but they lack in an area that the top performers do not lack in. Martial Arts has poor AoE damage and Mitigation compared to the top sets, though its not terrible. Ice and Dark melee have lots of mitigation, but either lack significant damage or in Dark's case just lacks AoE damage in order to wipe spawns. Elec and Fire have plenty of AoE but their Mitigation left room for improvement (Elec had either RNG knockdown, or scattered enemies which effects your damage tremendously... also an ST damage problem). Kinetic has the problem of scattering enemies to ruin DPS, on top of slow key animations.

 

The rest of the sets fall somewhere in between so far. I think once we get more runs per set (Ideally 20+) the tiers will be more defined (Kin and Dark withstanding....)

 

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Haijinx]

So far on SOs anyway, what this suggests is KM may need buffed.  Since it actually has 2 AOEs and in set mitigation and its just dragging.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Kinetic Melee, along with Elec and Claws, may have drastically different results with the addition of a single KB to KD io.

 

In my KM runs, the cone was detrimental since it scattered the whole mob out of range of all other attacks except a 2s ranged attack.

[Galaxy Brain]

Another note is that the secondary and other powers are not considered. Dark for example has crap times, but Soul Drain allows for amazing output on your secondary set and epics.

 

/Elec may be the next secondary to try out as it has a damage aura, +Rech/Movement, and a click heal to think about instead of the much more passive /WP. All those factors could be big for certain sets.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 10/10/2019 at 5:57 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

Kinetic Melee, along with Elec and Claws, may have drastically different results with the addition of a single KB to KD io.

The KB to KD IO in Claws Shockwave is absolutely a game changer.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Infinitum, I just ran 10 missions with Psy Melee after a good chunk of practice runs... and I ended up with +0:30 to your average! 

 

 

I had an amazing run with 5:12 where I felt like Insight just procced every chance it could... but then I had 7 runs that took over 6 minutes. Partly due to what I feel was X-COM quality hit rates today (87% on +1 enemies shouldn't mean 4 misses in a row reeee), but was there a flaw in my strategy?

 

I would try to herd up a group by running past and hitting a few enemies to kite as I usually do, which while writing this I realize I could have used brawl, but that could trigger insight every once in a while. If I got insight, I would stay and try to take advantage as much as possible and wipe up spawns as fast as I could while dragging more to the next encounter.

 

As insight procced, I tried to rotate in Psy Sweep and Mass Levitate as often as possible (unless I got a group bunched then I would start with mass Lev to get a near guaranteed proc) and go to town. If I managed to get insight with a ST attack while bunching enemies up for Mass Lev range, I would immediately Build Up to take advantage of the DoT. I found myself not going for Greater Psy Blade often due to it ending insight, opting to use it only when near the end of insight on bosses, or at the end of Concentrate + Insight to maximize damage potential.

 

I also had tried a run or two whee I just tried Psy Melee as a "normal" set, and got similar times to when I tried to focus on making the best out of insight. In the latter, I sometimes found myself hesitant to throw out certain moves (mainly the AoEs) in the case that I "waste" Insight on the few mobs left that by the time I traveled to the next pack, I would not be able to use Insight vs them. Is it possible I may have just been very unlucky today with proccing Insight / Crappy ToHit rolls?

 

Overall, the set seems to have a steep learning curve due to the RNG nature of Insight compared to nearly all other "Combo" type sets. I'm also surprised that Concentrate doesn't interact with or grant Insight. Oh, Boggle was "ok" in my testing. I would occasionally boggle an enemy in a nearby group as I fought to throw out some damage before I got to that pack, but the impact on time I think was non existent.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Infinitum, I just ran 10 missions with Psy Melee after a good chunk of practice runs... and I ended up with +0:30 to your average! 

 

 

I had an amazing run with 5:12 where I felt like Insight just procced every chance it could... but then I had 7 runs that took over 6 minutes. Partly due to what I feel was X-COM quality hit rates today (87% on +1 enemies shouldn't mean 4 misses in a row reeee), but was there a flaw in my strategy?

 

I would try to herd up a group by running past and hitting a few enemies to kite as I usually do, which while writing this I realize I could have used brawl, but that could trigger insight every once in a while. If I got insight, I would stay and try to take advantage as much as possible and wipe up spawns as fast as I could while dragging more to the next encounter.

 

As insight procced, I tried to rotate in Psy Sweep and Mass Levitate as often as possible (unless I got a group bunched then I would start with mass Lev to get a near guaranteed proc) and go to town. If I managed to get insight with a ST attack while bunching enemies up for Mass Lev range, I would immediately Build Up to take advantage of the DoT. I found myself not going for Greater Psy Blade often due to it ending insight, opting to use it only when near the end of insight on bosses, or at the end of Concentrate + Insight to maximize damage potential.

 

I also had tried a run or two whee I just tried Psy Melee as a "normal" set, and got similar times to when I tried to focus on making the best out of insight. In the latter, I sometimes found myself hesitant to throw out certain moves (mainly the AoEs) in the case that I "waste" Insight on the few mobs left that by the time I traveled to the next pack, I would not be able to use Insight vs them. Is it possible I may have just been very unlucky today with proccing Insight / Crappy ToHit rolls?

 

Overall, the set seems to have a steep learning curve due to the RNG nature of Insight compared to nearly all other "Combo" type sets. I'm also surprised that Concentrate doesn't interact with or grant Insight. Oh, Boggle was "ok" in my testing. I would occasionally boggle an enemy in a nearby group as I fought to throw out some damage before I got to that pack, but the impact on time I think was non existent.

Jumping to the end, dont use boggle, its crap.  lol

 

Sounds like you got a bunch of crappy rolls honestly, cause your strategy wasnt too different from mine, try not using boggle next time and see how it goes. Also i tend to use GPB as soon as i get insight because its a guaranteed boss kill or close to it.  Thats how i viewed it because you do enough damage outside of insight to take care of minions and lieus.

 

5:12 though was really awesome, i need to get back in there and regain the fastest psy time now  🙂  seriously though thats a great time. You just got some unlucky rolls.

[Hopeling]

On 10/9/2019 at 5:33 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

What would be a good, basic IO spread we could probably standardize?

I was thinking about this a while ago, and I think at least two tiers would be useful: a low-end and a high-end IO build. Maybe something like:

• Low-End: No ATOs, purples, or procs (except KB>KD, or something similarly critical). Frankenslotting or yellow/orange sets in attacks, 20% global recharge. Add Tough, Weave, and Hasten. Add recovery uniques (Miracle, Numina, Panacea).
• High-End: Allow ATOs and purples, aiming to get to perma-Hasten-ish levels of recharge. Add as much defense as you want (frankly, on +0/x3 there are going to be pretty hard ceiling effects on durability here, so I don't think the exact parameters matter).

20% global recharge may sound low for an IO build, but with 60-90% slotted recharge in attacks (up from 33%) plus Hasten, it's still a large jump up from SOs. The high-end condition is another large jump.

 

Should we separate recharge/recovery/defense, or do you want to lump them together for now? Should we include epic/ancillary powers?

Edited October 12, 2019 by Hopeling

[Galaxy Brain]

@Hopeling, @Lord_Cyclone91, @Infinitum

 

I finally finished, 10 runs per primary:

 

 

Sets are ordered by my average per 10 runs. The next column is the swing vs my overall average, then the swing vs the Total Average, and finally my individual averages vs the respective set's total average. 

 

These are not too different than the total averages below (though, there is a big bias as I have done the most runs....)

 

Total Averages:

 

More or less the same as my runs, though there are a few shifts. Below, I include the "Swing Shifts" to show how resistances either raise or lower the ranking of certain sets.

 

Adj Resist (Factoring in the chance to encounter resists):

 

 

Avg Resist (the average resistances ignoring encounter rate):

 

 

What we see here on the totals is that most all sets fit within +/- 30 seconds of the respective averages. Fiery Melee sits just outside the average on the low end which is very troubling to me given the set should thematically be on the high end.

 

In every chart, we see 3 outliers that sit at either + / - 1:00 Minute ....

 

1. Kinetic Melee = +1:14 avg
   1. KM suffers greatly from an AoE that scatters mobs, requiring you to give chase or use a laggy, lower damage Ranged Attack. You can build up decent damage boosts, but the set itself has a hard time taking advantage of it due to a slow animating PBAoE and a smidge slower than average T3 melee, on top of the cone making you lose out on additional damage boosting from other melee attacks. This leads to the best strategy being cycling through just 3 ST attacks in melee range to build up damage, and cycling in your PBAoE. Concentrated Strike can be decent as the last attack you toss out on a boss before Power Siphon ends, but in general it is far superior to just cycle the basic attacks due to the very slow animation. 
   2. The gimmick of CS recharging Power Siphon is neat, but incredibly unreliable to be almost a non factor in the 10 missions, and hundreds upon hundreds of fights. KM also lacks burst damage due to needing to build up damage over a few attacks, so while you can get 156% damage boost on a Scrapper, this is after waiting on 5 attacks to animate where other sets can probably throw out 5 attacks at 100% damage boost via Build Up and do more damage than KM over 20 seconds at base. 
   3. Secondary Sets, Epics and IOs would make a HUGE difference with this set.
2. Dark Melee = +1:22 avg
   1. DM is very very safe, but has the worst AoE damage of all the melee sets. Sure, you have Soul Drain and the End Drain PBAoE does some damage, but the latter is on a very long timer and the only option you have to take advantage of the long duration, big damage boost is a narrow 5-target cone with a long animation. Without the ability to throw around your big damage boost to a wide array of targets, it is almost wasted as you take longer time to cycle from target to target, one by one to clear a mission.
   2. DM has a solid base, but by itself it is very anemic. Paired with an offensive secondary or epic and things would probably change.
3. Titan Weapons = -1:16 avg
   1. The elephant in the room, there was only 1 set in my runs that consistently had runs under 5 minutes each aside from 1 run where a guy ran into the boxes and made me chase.
   2. TW has 4 AoE attacks. 2 of these are cone attacks that can often knock foes on their butt, another is a cone that grants you +Def, and the last is a huge PBAoE that knocks foes down, deals DoT and has a 1 second animation. I could do whole string sin momentum and never need to touch an ST attack. Defensive Sweep is actually your fastest attack out of momentum, and recharges in ~3 seconds with 1 SO. Lining up with even just 2 targets guarantees momentum with minimal downtime, and allows all your other AoEs to hit hard in seconds.
   3. On the ST side, you have a very hard hitting attack that deals -Res on hit, a solid ST attack that can knock down, and a 1 sec momentum locked ST attack that deals DoT, knocks and can disorient. The cone attacks have strong enough DPA to be used in a ST rotation and while saturated with enemies you can work in defensive sweep for  melee defense and knock out targets around the boss easily.
   4. TW is endurance heavy sure, but unlike other sets I had endurance issues with it killed efficiently enough and locked down targets easily enough that I was never in any danger and could keep chugging non stop. Interestingly, outside of momentum HELPED because the slow animation let me recover endurance for the next attack! The slow animations are straight up a non issue after playing literally every other melee set outside Stone, SS and NRG. I NEVER missed getting momentum due to cones having multiple hit chances, and while in momentum all my attacks had faster average animation times than comparable powers in other melee sets while hitting like WM's shatter. Build Momentum was not even necessary half the time as I could wipe an entire mob in just normal rotations with Defensive or Titan sweep in between which cleared most of the mob anyways and sped up the following AoE. Build momentum was great when I did have a legit gap or when enemies were gathering around me, and even as I took hits I could just Build Momentum - Whirling Smash and knock everyone down or straight up clear the minions, and follow with the other cones to keep them controlled or dead.

 

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will add in more details on sets later on.

[Sniktch]

Predictions:

 

Claws will see little overall benefit from adding Hasten and shifting up to IOs; the set's base numbers are so low that further decreases to them won't change much.  Stackable Follow-Up will matter, but not enough to move the needle any great distance.

 

Kinetic will improve, but not enough.  Turning the cone into a KD will help but the set's biggest bottleneck is the slow animations for the bigger hits and the unreliable effect of Concentrated Strike, neither of which is fixable by slotting or setting.

 

Dark will stay about where it is.

 

Titan will explode with just the addition of Hasten; IOs on top will leave the rest in the dust.  Spines might be able to keep the taillights in sight, but just barely.  Staff has a bottleneck RE animation times on AoEs, and so will not keep pace.

 

Psy will remain feast-or-famine based on Insight rolls.

 

Rad will fall off due to Atom Smasher's animation time being the biggest throttle.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Sniktch, I'm not so sure that claws wont see a jump in performance. Stacked follow up and more Spin can do a ton of work.

 

Your other predictions seem on the nose, though I think that we will see a big shift with Dark if we add in secondary offensive abilities.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Sniktch said:

Claws will see little overall benefit from adding Hasten and shifting up to IOs; the set's base numbers are so low that further decreases to them won't change much.  Stackable Follow-Up will matter, but not enough to move the needle any great distance.

I find that I must respectfully disagree. My current build is pushing ~186% global recharge and it allows for very tight attack chains on a scrapper. Brute a bit less because the base recharge on spin and shockwave are higher. ST chain is Followup, Focus, Slash, repeat which means a triplestack of Fu on Focus.
For tight crowds, the chain becomes Fu, Focus, Spin. With a CFKD in Spin, mitigation in the middle of a pack goes up.

For really large groups, or being at the edge of a group so Sw can come into play with its KB turned into KD, it's Fu, Spin, Sw, repeat. AoE output at that point is pretty freaking huge.

There's a reason that claws is hanging with the other big boys in the farming thread.

This said... I have been tempted to totally rework the build into a proc monster just to see what, if anything, might change. I really should spend some time on the test server.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Sniktch, I'm not so sure that claws wont see a jump in performance. Stacked follow up and more Spin can do a ton of work.

 

Your other predictions seem on the nose, though I think that we will see a big shift with Dark if we add in secondary offensive abilities.

I think it's funny how most people don't take or use DS on TW but it saved the day for it here.  Without that knowledge first and foremost would the TW times have been as static?  Because at first they weren't - it was still good but - not even close and barely better than my psy times.  That's almost a front loaded bias that made the later TW testing more reliable once you learned the key for making it good reliably for this particular test.  How would the person that didn't know that play it though?  Maybe the other sets could improve also with more testing? And maybe the TW number would go down with more testing but that's hard now that the optimal attack chain for the test has been discovered.  even with that its only 27 sec better than the next closest.  Not trying to argue but do you see the issue I'm seeing?

 

I think we also need to run the test on a few different secondaries that aren't as end friendly like SR and invul - those are also popular and common choices.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Infinitum

[Galaxy Brain]

@Infinitum, is skipping DS normal for all TW builds especially at the SO level? I went into this test trying to use all powers as often as possible as no set except arguably claws has low tier attacks that are not beneficial to throw in pre IO / outside bonuses. Arguing that a set is not as good if you up and skip a power is a bit.... odd? I even tried "bad" attacks like boggle to see if itd have an impact, but at the "base" level on SOs I think DS and staff's cone parries offer a lot to be passed over until recharge and +def from IOs come in.

 

27 sec faster is also significant when you factor in that nearly every other gap between sets is single digits.

 

I do think as attack chains get fleshed and certain attacks get dropped, such as DS, it will become more interesting to see what changes tho!

[Hopeling]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

I think it's funny how most people don't take or use DS on TW but it saved the day for it here.

I agree that this is worth noting. When people say TW is strong, it's not because Defensive Sweep allows you to herd with low-end builds. The fact that TW is in front right now says more about the structure of our test than about the set, IMO. Without DS I was getting times a bit under 6:00, roughly middle of the pack.

 

So on the one hand, it may stand to gain less from IOs in our test because it's already durable enough. On the other hand, conventional wisdom is that TW scales really well with IOs because it's so limited by endurance and recharge. I'm curious to see whether the gap closes.