DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[MetaVileTerror]

I may have a crazy idea . . . no real certainty if it could even be implemented, but . . . 
What if we combine the ideas?

Leave Hasten as-is.

Add a new, inherent Power which offers scaling Recharge benefit, starting around +2.5% at level 1 or 2, which scales up to +20% by level 50 . . . BUT it is flagged to be mutually exclusive with Hasten.  If you take Hasten, this Inherent loses its function until you Respec Hasten out.

I don't know if such mutual exclusivity is even possible given the current limitations of the code, and it might require converting Hasten in to an Auto Power which grants the player access to the Hasten Click Power, just so that the Inherent Recharge buff can "detect" if Hasten has been chosen . . . 

 

How does that sound?  Will it maintain the function and desirability of Hasten for those players who like it the way it is, while also opening up alternative build options for those of us who find Hasten to be too much of a disruption to their concept/fun to take on their characters?

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Can you explain why any of that is a "problem" worthy of discussion?

Any one pool or power that becomes a universal requirement for most builds, like the original Fitness pool, probably indicates that it should be "elevated" to Inherent status, like the original Fitness pool.  By becoming a "must have" for a majority, it shows that there's a fundamental issue with game mechanics that needs to be addressed (such as it was with Stamina). 

 

Such "must have" powers also become a form of penalty or tax, in some regards, because they force players into taking a power that might not really fit their character's concept or theme, simply to maintain viability or maximum efficiency.  In many cases, Hasten is the only power picked from the Speed pool for many characters, which ties up one out of a maximum of four total power pools allowed.  There are builds where I'd prefer to take something out of other pools, but cannot, because of Hasten.

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rathulfr

[DR_Mechano]

I have no problem with Hasten as is becoming an inherent power like Stamina, Health, Swift an hurdle. Give dat stoof to me from level 2 and I'd be a happy chappy. I am, however, against deleting or nerfing it.

[DR_Mechano]

I will point out that deleting hasten and just offering a 20% recharge boost actually makes Perma Phantom Army impossible since Phantom Army requires MORE recharge than hasten to be be perma, in fact if you go for perma PA you're going past the point of hasten being perma and having it sit idle since it doesn't stack with itself and this is in a set with an additional +20% recharge in AM with Radiation Emissions.

 

So yeah...no...I like having perma Phantom Army on my AV killer Controller thank you, so take your idea of deleting it and just stop. Like I said, making it an inherent power but left as is, that's fine by me, but removing it and offering a paltry 20% recharge in its place...no thank you...

Edited September 25, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[TheAdjustor]

8 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

I may have a crazy idea . . . no real certainty if it could even be implemented, but . . . 
What if we combine the ideas?

Leave Hasten as-is.

Add a new, inherent Power which offers scaling Recharge benefit, starting around +2.5% at level 1 or 2, which scales up to +20% by level 50 . . . BUT it is flagged to be mutually exclusive with Hasten.  If you take Hasten, this Inherent loses its function until you Respec Hasten out.

I don't know if such mutual exclusivity is even possible given the current limitations of the code, and it might require converting Hasten in to an Auto Power which grants the player access to the Hasten Click Power, just so that the Inherent Recharge buff can "detect" if Hasten has been chosen . . . 

 

How does that sound?  Will it maintain the function and desirability of Hasten for those players who like it the way it is, while also opening up alternative build options for those of us who find Hasten to be too much of a disruption to their concept/fun to take on their characters?

I like the idea of alternatives. In general choices are good, competitive choices even better. Just not so sure about the scaling numbers. You can take hasten level 4 and if you are a bit clevel about how you use it, get around 40% effective recharge (in combat in mission) if you leverage your downtime you can even make better use of it. 

 

Anything less than 35% or so is a gimp and something of a noob tap.

[Weylin]

It is kind of overpowered that a single pool power can be equivalent to 9 luck of the gamblers +global recharge

The fact that builds require this to "perma" something is indicative of a larger problem.

Some games don't even start the cooldown on abilities until they finish their thing, so hastens cooldown wouldn't even begin until its 2 minute duration is up under that system.

 

I'm just a newcomer, so trying to take toys away from the veterans for reasons of balance probably isn't going to end well, so I just accept it and suggest QoL and power creep instead 😛

[Steampunkette]

2 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I don't think she's suggesting that we nerf Hasten.  I think she's suggesting that we make (unslotted) Hasten a permanent passive, like the other Inherent powers in Fitness.  If it's like those in Fitness, it can be slotted with +Recharge IOs, effectively preserving its currently functionality, for those who want to do that.

Not -exactly-. I'm looking at averaging out it's effectiveness as an autopower based on the unslotted effectiveness of the power's duration vs recharge rate.

 

Then deleting Hasten from the Superspeed Power Pool and replacing it with the lower power recharge buff "Quick" as an 'always on' power granting +15%. You wouldn't be able to slot anything, you'd just be constantly somewhat faster instead of occasionally significantly faster.

 

10 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

I may have a crazy idea . . . no real certainty if it could even be implemented, but . . . 
What if we combine the ideas?

Leave Hasten as-is.

Add a new, inherent Power which offers scaling Recharge benefit, starting around +2.5% at level 1 or 2, which scales up to +20% by level 50 . . . BUT it is flagged to be mutually exclusive with Hasten.  If you take Hasten, this Inherent loses its function until you Respec Hasten out.

I don't know if such mutual exclusivity is even possible given the current limitations of the code, and it might require converting Hasten in to an Auto Power which grants the player access to the Hasten Click Power, just so that the Inherent Recharge buff can "detect" if Hasten has been chosen . . . 

 

How does that sound?  Will it maintain the function and desirability of Hasten for those players who like it the way it is, while also opening up alternative build options for those of us who find Hasten to be too much of a disruption to their concept/fun to take on their characters?

Cannot do it. The function of the Mutually Exclusive code is that if you have one power you cannot select another power that it is exclusive with. If you set it up that way, Hasten would be unselectable.

 

And leaving Hasten in the game, at all, just means it'll continue to be the default power everyone picks at high end. (Or at least around 83% of everyone)

 

4 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

I will point out that deleting hasten and just offering a 20% recharge boost actually makes Perma Phantom Army impossible since Phantom Army requires MORE recharge than hasten to be be perma, in fact if you go for perma PA you're going past the point of hasten being perma and having it sit idle since it does stack with itself and this is in a set with an additional +20% recharge in AM with Radiation Emissions.

That is true. We'd need to look at a few specific powers and potentially alter their recharge time to make Perma Possible, if Perma is Desirable. 

 

Whether Perma PA is actually a desirable thing for the game to have would be a WHOLE other kettle of fish!

 

Though for what it's worth? I think Permadom is both awful and amazing. I feel like it should be lowered in function and in recharge rate. Instead of doubling the value of controls it should be +1 Mag and the recharge reduced by 40 seconds to make it easier to perma.

[TheAdjustor]

10 minutes ago, Weylin said:

It is kind of overpowered that a single pool power can be equivalent to 9 luck of the gamblers +global recharge

The fact that builds require this to "perma" something is indicative of a larger problem.

Some games don't even start the cooldown on abilities until they finish their thing, so hastens cooldown wouldn't even begin until its 2 minute duration is up under that system.

 

I'm just a newcomer, so trying to take toys away from the veterans for reasons of balance probably isn't going to end well, so I just accept it and suggest QoL and power creep instead 😛

You aren't wrong but if you are going to try and re-balance the game you need to be willing to define where it should be balanced in the first place.

 

That's the problem with the "NERF X" in general threads. People don't have a positive direction they want to take the game, they are just being reactionary to something that rubs them the wrong way.

 

It's also the problem with balancing by trying have equal results across the board.

 

Edit: Just on a personal note, there is the whole Melee/not melee balance point issue which is the biggest balance problem in the game by far.

Edited September 25, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Rathulfr]

BTW, predicting the immediate backlash to this suggestion is why I originally posted "Add a smidge of +Recharge to inherent Swift?".  I figured that asking for +10% recharge globally would be more palatable than asking for something that might be misinterpreted as "let's nerf Hasten".

[DR_Mechano]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

That is true. We'd need to look at a few specific powers and potentially alter their recharge time to make Perma Possible, if Perma is Desirable. 

 

Whether Perma PA is actually a desirable thing for the game to have would be a WHOLE other kettle of fish!

 

Though for what it's worth? I think Permadom is both awful and amazing. I feel like it should be lowered in function and in recharge rate. Instead of doubling the value of controls it should be +1 Mag and the recharge reduced by 40 seconds to make it easier to perma.

The thing with Perma Phantom Army is that its a very niche build, it's not that great in your day to day group content since groups can easily kill stuff faster than your phantom army can not to mention they take a while to catch up if you're running ahead...It's a dedicated, non-hami (since he does untyped damage which is the only thing that can kill decoys) AV and Giant Monster killer. It lets controllers do something they're not normally good at, it lets them play 'against type' as it were and become damage dealers or tanks.

 

As I said if it really is that much of a MUST HAVE power like Fitness was, then move it to an inherent. Not only are you saving a power pick for everyone but everyone gets it and can do with it what they like. Not only this but getting it at level 2 also makes those lower levels much less of a slog if you're a solo player because once per mission you can burst down a boss etc.

[Rathulfr]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Not -exactly-. I'm looking at averaging out it's effectiveness as an autopower based on the unslotted effectiveness of the power's duration vs recharge rate.

I realized that after re-reading your OP, so I deleted that comment too late for you not to quote it. *SMH*

[Weylin]

If it wasn't for "Enhancement Diversification" you could simply slap on recharge until you perma a specific ability, at the cost of other attributes.

Stacking on the same enhancement has a form of diminishing returns as it is, even without ED

[MetaVileTerror]

I didn't mean the Powers would be mutually exclusive as Selections.  I meant that taking Hasten would disable the function of the Auto Inherent Recharge Power.  Hasten wouldn't remove the AIR Power, just suppress it.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, DSorrow said:

Can't disagree with this but my only fear is that any meaningful nerf to Hasten would see ED levels of outrage. As much as the numbers prove Hasten being too good, I'm going to have to go with a no.

This and then some lol.  And we all know how well ED went over...

[Steampunkette]

5 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

I didn't mean the Powers would be mutually exclusive as Selections.  I meant that taking Hasten would disable the function of the Auto Inherent Recharge Power.  Hasten wouldn't remove the AIR Power, just suppress it.

What I mean is there's no option to make a power you have just stop functioning because you've taken a different power.

 

Mutual Exclusivity in the engine only works as a "Take one power and you can't take the other"

 

That said, you could just slap a 20% recharge rate debuff on Hasten to cancel out the 20% global increase...

 

But that doesn't help the core problem at all. Everyone's still gonna take Hasten. It's too good on it's own.

[Rathulfr]

13 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

What I mean is there's no option to make a power you have just stop functioning because you've taken a different power.

 

Mutual Exclusivity in the engine only works as a "Take one power and you can't take the other"

 

That said, you could just slap a 20% recharge rate debuff on Hasten to cancel out the 20% global increase...

 

But that doesn't help the core problem at all. Everyone's still gonna take Hasten. It's too good on it's own.

 

So it sounds like the best compromise is:

 

1. Add 20% +Recharge to Swift in the Fitness inherent pool.
2. Nerf Hasten by 20%, for a base recharge rate of 50% +Recharge.
3. Reduce the base recharge of Hasten by 20%, from 450 to 360 sec. (Check my math on that, please?) (Nix that: the global would do that automatically.)

 

That way, everyone gets a global recharge buff across the board, but those who want to keep Hasten can do so without any ill effect, and those who want to drop Hasten can do so without penalty.

 

Isn't that what I was basically asking for in my original post?  Does that mean I win? 😋

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rathulfr
Added item 3.

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

But that doesn't help the core problem at all. Everyone's still gonna take Hasten. It's too good on it's own.

Only if you ignore it requires using one of your limited pool selections. 

[Infinitum]

41 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Any one pool or power that becomes a universal requirement for most builds, like the original Fitness pool, probably indicates that it should be "elevated" to Inherent status, like the original Fitness pool.  By becoming a "must have" for a majority, it shows that there's a fundamental issue with game mechanics that needs to be addressed (such as it was with Stamina). 

 

Such "must have" powers also become a form of penalty or tax, in some regards, because they force players into taking a power that might not really fit their character's concept or theme, simply to maintain viability or maximum efficiency.  In many cases, Hasten is the only power picked from the Speed pool for many characters, which ties up one out of a maximum of four total power pools allowed.  There are builds where I'd prefer to take something out of other pools, but cannot, because of Hasten.

 

But is it really must have/requirement or what we have grown accustomed to since IO sets targeting as close to perma as we can get?  Maybe subconsciously thinking we have to have the recharge?  I'll five you a good example, on live I had perma hasten on everything I could, but on homecoming I started targeting for capped resistance and soft capped defense at the sacrifice of perma hasten and recharge in general.  I was almost nervous at first slotting that way but in the end I was stronger sacraficing the recharge for the resistance and defense.

 

So I definately wouldnt call it a must have.

 

I would argue that hasten isnt a requirement but rather a power thats good enough to want on the majority of builds.

[biostem]

"Meta powers", IMO, (ones which basically benefit all other powers), tend to be problematic.  The fact that hasten improves the recharge of *all* powers makes it exceedingly powerful.  Make hasten a toggle that costs a certain amount of end/sec and reduce the recharge bonus, to put it in line with the leadership powers.  Alternatively, what if taking hasten allowed you to "tag" 3 other powers, who would have their recharges affected, instead of it being a huge global bonus.

[Heraclea]

2 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

The difference being, most people took MOST or ALL of the Fitness pool.

 

Not just a one-power "dip", like with Hasten.

Super Speed + a Celerity Stealth IO is a very handy thing to have on all sorts of characters.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Heraclea

[Infinitum]

21 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

But that doesn't help the core problem at all. Everyone's still gonna take Hasten. It's too good on it's own.

I think problem is to harsh a word for this still.   The fact that most people like it doesnt mean they have to take it, they simply like it.

[Demon Shell]

I had thought for years, long before the selection metrics were ever posted, that Hasten should just be an inherent. And why not? The level of Recharge Reduction on your abilities is one of the things that makes this game different than other MMOs.

 

Most of the time in MMOs if a move has a 10 minute cooldown, there's little to nothing you can do about it. Here, there's on average between 100% (Recharge to ED, no Global no Hasten) to 300% (Recharge to ED, 130% Global, Perma Hasten) more that you can do about it.

 

Recharge in this game should be celebrated for what it is, one of the things that makes this game different, not nerfed. Hasten, as the single largest source of Recharge, should be given freely to everyone.

 

My only question is, if you make Hasten inherent, what do you replace it with?

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Only if you ignore it requires using one of your limited pool selections. 

Simple cost-benefit; If the recharge reduction is that important to you, then it is worth "using one of your limited pool selections", just like every power or enhancement slotting decision you make throughout your character's career.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Demon Shell said:

My only question is, if you make Hasten inherent, what do you replace it with?

I would love to see a short range teleport power, like spring attack, only you dash between like up to 3 targets in a small AoE and deliver several quick attacks.

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Simple cost-benefit; If the recharge reduction is that important to you, then it is worth "using one of your limited pool selections", just like every power or enhancement slotting decision you make throughout your character's career.

That doesn't make it a "problem that needs nerfing".