Rathulfr Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) Here's a completely crazy and selfish idea: what if we add a smidge of +Recharge to inherent Swift, say maybe +10 to 20%? Nothing that would compete with Hasten or other powers that grant +Recharge, but enough that might allow for some builds to skip Hasten? The goal is to have no net effect change to Hasten or any builds that depend on Hasten, but simply to grant more freedom to folks who currently feel compelled to take Hasten to optimize their builds, so they can drop it and pick something else. (edit 1) @MetaVileTerror made a good suggestion that this could scale with level, starting at 2.5% for at 1, and capping out at +10 to 20% at level 50. (edit 2) An alternative suggestion, based on the discussions in @Steampunkette's "Delete Hasten" post: Add 20% +Recharge global to Swift in the Fitness inherent pool. Nerf Hasten by 20%, for a base recharge rate of 50% +Recharge. (edit 3) Another alternative suggestion, that isn't as "free" as the first one: why not just add +2.5 to 5% recharge to Combat Jumping, Hover, Maneuvers, Stealth, or Weave? That way, it isn't a straight up super-buff to everyone for nothing, but part and parcel of the trade-off decisions associated with choosing one or more of those powers? [NOTE: I should point out that none of these ideas should be allowed to slot recharge enhancements: they're just flat percentage buffs without changing any slotting.] Edited September 27, 2019 by Rathulfr 1 @Rathstar Energy/Energy Blaster (50+3) on Everlasting Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunkiLord Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 This would push a couple of my characters to perma hasten. /signed 1 The Trevor Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetaVileTerror Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 How about +Recharge which Scales with Level? Starts at a mere +2.5%, but progresses up to +10% by level 50? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor Cure Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 ..Why? I mean..I am not against exatra rech, but..is there any real reason for it? With IOs, there are a stack of +rech options, and Hasten. If the entire reason for if is to allow builds to skip hasten, well, they already CAN? If you are talking builds with IOs, they will already have some +rech, even more options for that with incarnate stuff. I have lots of builds without Hasten. It is quite overrated, depending on the power sets involved. I just dont see a point to this, other than 'yay lets let everyone have more rech for the hell of it.' 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAdjustor Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 (edited) I don't think it should be a free pick. But I would like to see a power in the speed pool that would be a 10% to 20% +recharge power. It would make a nice swapout for whirlwind (has anyone actually taken that ?) If the devs weren't committed to no more mutually exclusive power pics, having a 35% passive recharge boost that you could take instead of hasten would be great as well. Edited September 25, 2019 by TheAdjustor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megajoule Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 I already skip Hasten on pretty much all my builds, and find the general obsession with it, and/or "perma everything, zero downtime", to be ... I have so many words I could use, but for the sake of decorum, let's go with "bothersome". 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Ninja Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 Shouldn't be free, should be something you have to consciously take. If Fitness were still a pool and not automatic I'd agree, especially if some +something else was added to hurdle so you had a choice as opposed to needing Swift on all builds (with the normal caveat that not all builds would need it). An Universal Travel IO with a scaling (to level, 10% @ 50) +recharge unique, would IMO be a better option. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepp Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 8 hours ago, TheAdjustor said: I don't think it should be a free pick. But I would like to see a power in the speed pool that would be a 10% to 20% +recharge power. It would make a nice swapout for whirlwind (has anyone actually taken that ?) If the devs weren't committed to no more mutually exclusive power pics, having a 35% passive recharge boost that you could take instead of hasten would be great as well. On 9/2/2019 at 8:38 AM, Cipher said: Some Pool Power statistics: Pool Powers (All Levels): Hide contents Pool Power Count Fighting Tough 64,450 Fighting Weave 52,046 Fighting Boxing 50,057 Fighting Kick 36,141 Fighting Cross Punch 4,183 Flight Fly 182,678 Flight Combat Flight 63,981 Flight Afterburner 18,983 Flight Air Superiority 7,852 Flight Group Fly 1,352 Invisibility Stealth 34,672 Invisibility Invisibility 14,884 Invisibility Grant Invisibility 9,555 Invisibility Phase Shift 4,161 Invisibility Misdirection 1,475 Leadership Maneuvers 81,608 Leadership Assault 67,619 Leadership Tactics 58,053 Leadership Vengeance 15,009 Leadership Victory Rush 9,407 Leaping Super Jump 129,071 Leaping Combat Jumping 93,131 Leaping Acrobatics 16,629 Leaping Spring Attack 6,682 Leaping Jump Kick 4,393 Manipulation Provoke 4,462 Manipulation Intimidate 2,757 Manipulation Challenge 2,723 Manipulation Unrelenting 2,036 Manipulation Invoke Panic 694 Medicine Aid Other 14,000 Medicine Aid Self 10,642 Medicine Stimulant 5,819 Medicine Field Medic 5,232 Medicine Resuscitate 3,183 Sorcery Mystic Flight 64,107 Sorcery Translocation 64,107 Sorcery Arcane Bolt 17,315 Sorcery Spirit Ward 10,231 Sorcery Rune of Protection 7,168 Sorcery Enflame 3,735 Speed Hasten 155,593 Speed Super Speed 84,821 Speed Flurry 4,183 Speed Burnout 4,094 Speed Whirlwind 1,211 Teleportation Recall Friend 34,265 Teleportation Teleport 25,523 Teleportation Teleport Foe 5,735 Teleportation Long Range Teleport 5,586 Pool Powers (Level 50): Hide contents Set Power Count Fighting Tough 35,901 Fighting Weave 33,975 Fighting Boxing 23,253 Fighting Kick 14,416 Fighting Cross Punch 1,797 Flight Fly 17,435 Flight Combat Flight 12,318 Flight Afterburner 6,140 Flight Air Superiority 1,314 Flight Group Fly 521 Invisibility Stealth 14,078 Invisibility Invisibility 8,231 Invisibility Grant Invisibility 5,206 Invisibility Phase Shift 3,359 Invisibility Misdirection 910 Leadership Maneuvers 34,222 Leadership Tactics 24,088 Leadership Assault 21,135 Leadership Vengeance 10,765 Leadership Victory Rush 3,790 Leaping Combat Jumping 37,287 Leaping Super Jump 25,729 Leaping Acrobatics 7,979 Leaping Spring Attack 2,532 Leaping Jump Kick 604 Manipulation Provoke 1,143 Manipulation Unrelenting 949 Manipulation Intimidate 936 Manipulation Challenge 605 Manipulation Invoke Panic 261 Medicine Aid Self 3,250 Medicine Aid Other 2,703 Medicine Field Medic 1,730 Medicine Stimulant 1,407 Medicine Resuscitate 1,128 Sorcery Mystic Flight 6,064 Sorcery Translocation 6,064 Sorcery Rune of Protection 2,872 Sorcery Spirit Ward 2,687 Sorcery Arcane Bolt 1,860 Sorcery Enflame 728 Speed Hasten 53,580 Speed Super Speed 23,968 Speed Burnout 2,331 Speed Flurry 387 Speed Whirlwind 363 Teleportation Recall Friend 9,199 Teleportation Teleport 2,761 Teleportation Long Range Teleport 1,703 Teleportation Teleport Foe 1,393 Teleportation Team Teleport 673 Whirlwind is second to last, behind Invoke Panic and just ahead of Flurry. Archetype Concept Compilation -- Powerset Concept Compilations: Assault Melee -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Great Archetype Concept Battle: Final Round -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Archetype Proposal Amalgamation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZorkNemesis Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, TheAdjustor said: It would make a nice swapout for whirlwind (has anyone actually taken that ?) I took it once, on a Stalker. With a KB>KD IO it makes for a decent defensive option as melee range enemies are somewhat frequently being juggled. Repsec'd out of it in the end since it messed up Hide, but I should've known better. I could see it being a decent option for Brutes or Tankers. Though it would be garbage in bigger fights where mobs generally resist KD and such. Edited September 25, 2019 by ZorkNemesis Currently playing on Indomitable as @Zork Nemesis; was a Protector native on live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redlynne Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 18 hours ago, Rathulfr said: Here's a completely crazy and selfish idea: what if we add a smidge of +Recharge to inherent Swift, say maybe +10%? At that point you might as well just reduce the base recharge time on every power in the game ... Downvoted. 1 Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steampunkette Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 I'm with Redlynne on this one. That said, adding a smide of Recharge to the other powers in the Superspeed pool would be okay. Like +10% recharge for 20 seconds after using Flurry. Or +15% recharge while you have Superspeed toggled on. Things like that would be nice. Obviously Burnout wouldn't provide a recharge boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetaVileTerror Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 If we're going to give Flurry a little boost like that, what about Jump Kick? I'd say "Air Superiority too," but honestly, that thing is already a bit of a beast with the -Fly, quick recharge, and decent enough punchiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redlynne Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 23 minutes ago, Steampunkette said: That said, adding a smide of Recharge to the other powers in the Superspeed pool would be okay. Like +10% recharge for 20 seconds after using Flurry. Or +15% recharge while you have Superspeed toggled on. Things like that would be nice. (Temp) Buff from Flurry ... sounds good ... although I'd think a sort of "built in" Force Feedback style of effect (so you wouldn't need to slot the proc) would be more appropriate. Recharge buff from Superspeed ... no ... that's going to open a whole can of worms that is best kept sealed (in concrete at the bottom of the North Sea). Whirlwind though ... I can easily imagine putting in a global recharge buff into Whirlwind that affects all powers while the toggle is on ... Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSorrow Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 For purely selfish reasons I want to say yes, but I can't actually come up with any proper arguments to support a change like this. 10% +Rech for everyone wouldn't break the game for sure, but it's still power creep and that's something we should generally be wary of. 1 Torchbearer: Sunsinger - Fire/Time Corruptor Cursebreaker - TW/Elec Brute Coldheart - Ill/Cold Controller Mythoclast - Rad/SD Scrapper Give a man a build export and you feed him for a day, teach him to build and he's fed for a lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steampunkette Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said: If we're going to give Flurry a little boost like that, what about Jump Kick? I'd say "Air Superiority too," but honestly, that thing is already a bit of a beast with the -Fly, quick recharge, and decent enough punchiness. I wouldn't give them +recharge... It's gotta be something applicable to the power in question. Like giving all the Jump Powers a stacking increase to the Jump Height of all the other jump powers. Or the range of Spring Attack. Just reduce Spring Attack's range by 20% and have each other power grant a 10% increase to the range of Spring Attack. That way the first two powers required to unlock it don't actually affect it's range, but the other two powers can increase it's range if you take it, kinda like the damage buffs to the Fighting Pool Attacks. 1 minute ago, Redlynne said: (Temp) Buff from Flurry ... sounds good ... although I'd think a sort of "built in" Force Feedback style of effect (so you wouldn't need to slot the proc) would be more appropriate. Recharge buff from Superspeed ... no ... that's going to open a whole can of worms that is best kept sealed (in concrete at the bottom of the North Sea). Whirlwind though ... I can easily imagine putting in a global recharge buff into Whirlwind that affects all powers while the toggle is on ... 15% recharge tied to Superspeed means people would be foolish enough to try and justify the end cost in combat for the 15% recharge buff. Sure your attacks hit faster, but you run out of End faster! Whirlwind definitely. Maybe make it give a big 'recharge hit' every time you hit someone with it for 1 second each? Like 90% Recharge boost for 1 second when you bounce someone. Since each bounce costs end... Could be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathulfr Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Redlynne said: At that point you might as well just reduce the base recharge time on every power in the game ... Downvoted. Yes: I figured it would be easier to tweak one power across the board, rather than touch hundreds of others. @Rathstar Energy/Energy Blaster (50+3) on Everlasting Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathulfr Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 19 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said: How about +Recharge which Scales with Level? Starts at a mere +2.5%, but progresses up to +10% by level 50? Yes, this is an even better idea. 1 1 @Rathstar Energy/Energy Blaster (50+3) on Everlasting Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmalltalkJava Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 I would love it if they put ina force feedback type of effect in whirlwind. It is such a cool looking ability Baseline MM Henchmen Defenses and Resist Values MM - Beast Pets - Pet Attack usage and some quick proc testing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathulfr Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 14 hours ago, Razor Cure said: ..Why? I mean..I am not against exatra rech, but..is there any real reason for it? With IOs, there are a stack of +rech options, and Hasten. If the entire reason for if is to allow builds to skip hasten, well, they already CAN? If you are talking builds with IOs, they will already have some +rech, even more options for that with incarnate stuff. I have lots of builds without Hasten. It is quite overrated, depending on the power sets involved. I just dont see a point to this, other than 'yay lets let everyone have more rech for the hell of it.' I also have builds without Hasten. I also have builds with Hasten. And I have builds with Hasten at the expense of something else, because I just need more recharge. It's the last use case I'm trying to address. And what's wrong with "'yay lets let everyone have more rech for the hell of it"? You say that like it's a bad thing? 😏 @Rathstar Energy/Energy Blaster (50+3) on Everlasting Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathulfr Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 2 hours ago, DSorrow said: For purely selfish reasons I want to say yes, but I can't actually come up with any proper arguments to support a change like this. 10% +Rech for everyone wouldn't break the game for sure, but it's still power creep and that's something we should generally be wary of. Power creep? I'd say the horse is well out of the barn, past the farm gate, and well into the fields on that, by now. 1 @Rathstar Energy/Energy Blaster (50+3) on Everlasting Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathulfr Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Megajoule said: I already skip Hasten on pretty much all my builds, and find the general obsession with it, and/or "perma everything, zero downtime", to be ... I have so many words I could use, but for the sake of decorum, let's go with "bothersome". I'm not asking for "perma everything, zero downtime". I'm just asking for a smidge more recharge, so that I can forego taking Hasten on more builds. There are builds that don't need it, some that do, and some that shouldn't have it, but need it. It's the third use-case I'm trying to address. Edited September 25, 2019 by Rathulfr @Rathstar Energy/Energy Blaster (50+3) on Everlasting Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steampunkette Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 20 minutes ago, Rathulfr said: I'm not asking for "perma everything, zero downtime". I'm just asking for a smidge more recharge, so that I can forego taking Hasten on more builds. There are builds that don't need it, some that do, and some that shouldn't have it, but need it. It's the third use-case I'm trying to address. Having Inherent Stamina was already a "Smidge More" recovery for everyone. You're just walking down the path a "Smidge Further" And yeah. Power Creep exists. That's not a good reason to pile onto it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megajoule Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 58 minutes ago, Rathulfr said: I also have builds without Hasten. I also have builds with Hasten. And I have builds with Hasten at the expense of something else, because I just need more recharge. It's the last use case I'm trying to address. And what's wrong with "'yay lets let everyone have more rech for the hell of it"? You say that like it's a bad thing? 😏 IMO: You don't need mor recharge. You WANT more Recharge. There's a difference. It's always "more Recharge", more damage, more Resistance, more more more. Either because (in this specific case) people don't want to wait, for anything, ever; or (more generally) because everything must be pushed as far as it can possibly go. Because humans aren't really wired to be satisfied with what they have. (Good thing from a survival and evolution perspective, bad thing for personal happiness and such.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunkiLord Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Steampunkette said: Or +15% recharge while you have Superspeed toggled on. Things like that would be nice. I already play with Super Speed during combat on multiple characters, so I love this idea. I would absolutely abuse it. 1 The Trevor Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathulfr Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Megajoule said: IMO: You don't need mor recharge. You WANT more Recharge. There's a difference. It's always "more Recharge", more damage, more Resistance, more more more. Either because (in this specific case) people don't want to wait, for anything, ever; or (more generally) because everything must be pushed as far as it can possibly go. Because humans aren't really wired to be satisfied with what they have. (Good thing from a survival and evolution perspective, bad thing for personal happiness and such.) "You kids get off my lawn!" *shakes fist* 😆 @Rathstar Energy/Energy Blaster (50+3) on Everlasting Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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