DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[Steampunkette]

11 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I approach these things from the following standpoints. 

 

Is problem the change is intended to address real, demonstrated, and urgent?

 

Does the fix do more harm than good?

 

Is there a simpler way to address the problem?

 

Im still stuck on the first two.  I'm always going to default towards not changing stuff.

The first one is always going to be subjective. I have a BIG problem when people call me a tranny. But the people who call me that don't care a whit. I can provide them all the evidence in the world why they shouldn't, but they're not going to care 'cause it's not a problem for -them-. No matter how real, demonstrated, or urgent it is for me or other people like me.

 

I've expressed the ways that Hasten is a vast outlier in the field of power pools. I've expressed how it's viewed as a Must Have and several people have stepped into this thread to say "You can't delete Hasten, it's a Must Have!" to paraphrase them. So that's pretty clearly established.

 

Does the fix do more harm than good? Well, suggestion 3 does very little harm, except to the fingers of the Dev Team as they pound keys to get it all inputted across literally hundreds of powers... In a few edge cases it means people require more recharge than they already have to be at full power, but it's kind of rare. There's also a few specific enemies that will need to be adjusted, like Reichsman and Valkyrie.

 

And there might be a simpler way to fix the problem... But I think anything simpler is going to conflict with item 2.

 

The bigger question I think we should ask ourselves is: Are we clinging to hasten in it's current form because it's how it's always been, the Status Quo, or because it's -actually- fine the way it is because it's not really stronger than any pool powers?

 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

The bigger question I think we should ask ourselves is: Are we clinging to hasten in it's current form because it's how it's always been, the Status Quo, or because it's -actually- fine the way it is because it's not really stronger than any pool powers?

 

 

Oh we are definitely clinging to it because its always been.

 

Thats where the urgent comes in.  

 

If you were to redesign COH mechanics you definitely would have a much weaker hasten.  

 

But mechanical inertia in games is a real thing.  And its not always bad.

[TheAdjustor]

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

THANK YOU!! This is my favorite power in the game, and it's not even close. I can envision scenarios in which I maybe, possibly might skip Hasten. Hell, sometimes I don't take Hasten until late in a build. 
 

But Combat Jumping? Every build, as soon as possible. I don't remember taking it after level ten with one exception and that was a Dom that intentionally took Hover and Fly. I hated it.
 

Combat Jumping is the best thing ever.

SHHHHHHHHH

Don't encourage the annoying people.

[Epsilon Assassin]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

 

The bigger question I think we should ask ourselves is: Are we clinging to hasten in it's current form because it's how it's always been, the Status Quo, or because it's -actually- fine the way it is because it's not really stronger than any pool powers?

 

 

People aren't clinging to hasten. It's simply a matter of people not understanding why so much work needs to be done for effectively zero reason outside the niche opinions of some people that they want it nerfed.

 

That isn't to say Hasten can't change, quite a few people (Myself included) wouldn't be too opposed to Hasten becoming an inherent (Like Fitness), the issue is you not only view it *like* fitness, but also want to nerf it after it gets the "Fitness" treatment. Hasten does not, actually, cause any real balance concerns so far as it relates to City of Heroes existing balancing scheme. It adds more power to a build, more so then any other power, but it's not necessary. You can clear all content without hasten, comfortably, and with SO's to boot (Which is the main part of how it differs from Fitness). 

 

I've read several of these threads now. With hundreds of posts, dozens of pages. I have yet to see any of them pose a real, substantial and reasonable argument about why the developers should take their time to not only address Hasten, but further to nerf it. I may, or may not, be alone in this, but when someone suggests I undertake a fairly large amount of work (Rebalancing the entire game around the loss of Hasten), I usually want a good reason. You've yet to provide a good reason for nerfing Hasten, as have most of the people in favor of nerfing it. 

[Haijinx]

I would also be opposed to hasten becoming an inherent.

 

 

 

[TheAdjustor]

Quote

@Haijinx

I approach these things from the following standpoints. 

 

Is problem the change is intended to address real, demonstrated, and urgent?

11 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

The first one is always going to be subjective. I have a BIG problem when people call me a tranny. But the people who call me that don't care a whit. I can provide them all the evidence in the world why they shouldn't, but they're not going to care 'cause it's not a problem for -them-. No matter how real, demonstrated, or urgent it is for me or other people like me.

 

 

 

There is why this thread is still going on and demonstrates the vast gulf between those who actually want to improve games and those that just want to screw with them.

 

People who  actually want balance can articulate what that balance should be at the very least what their idea of it should be and then at least form a factual argument based on performance or observable features of the game that something violates that balance.

 

Other people just stir up hornets nests.

[QuiJon]

44 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I don't have an opinion either way on your particular idea, but I would like to point out that Blasters used to perform that way and the players largely hated it. Granted AT design and power pool design are very different things, but I'm not sure how much support such an idea would receive. Not that it's bad, but the last implementation of it likely left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

 

Now as far as @Steampunkette's most recent suggestion is concerned, I like that one the most. That doesn't mean I'm sold on it as it's fair to question how much impact it would ultimately have for what appears to be a good amount of work. Plus I haven't really dove into the numbers, but I trust her on the math. Of course I'd want to test such a thing on actual characters to see how it plays out in practice as unintended consequences are a thing. But I don't see a downside for me, and out of consistency it's only fair I consider that since it was my only objection previously. If it works out how Steampunkette believes it would, the end result likely wouldn't have much impact on me either way. So purely from my perspective it would look like change for change's sake. But if I'm not negatively impacted and it others benefit, sure why not?

Blasters used to have that bonus in defiance, and it was totally hated because by the time you got any sizable bonus you were essentially a half a shot away from being dead. 

 

As for Steam's ideas, again how about not and we just leave it alone. It works just fine the way it is.

 

[Zepp]

I've actually gone into reworking some of my builds to see if they can be just as functional without Hasten. What I've found is that Perma-PA is just out of reach (but it is close enough to be functionally perma), you need about 122.5% Global Recharge for Perma-Dom (5 purples and 5 LotGs is 82.5% and that gets you most of the way there). Most other builds I've tried really didn't need Hasten either. While I understand both perspectives, in reality Hasten is popular because people think it is OP, not because it is OP. Furthermore, a good many people invest in excessive amounts of recharge to get perma-hasten, thus making their build less effective because of Hasten.

I think the community needs to move away from Hasten, but I am not sure changing the power is the way to handle what is fundamentally a social problem...

[QuiJon]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

 

At the risk of drawing the ire of this particular angry mob, I'm actually responsible for inspiring this madness.  I suggested that we simply tack on an additional +10% to 20% recharge to Swift in the Fitness inherent pool, so that I could drop Hasten from some of my builds (to take Combat Jumping or Stealth, instead, honestly).  But @Steampunkette (and others) thought this was giving away too much for nothing, until it was pointed out how popular Hasten was.  This changed @Steampunkette's mind enough to inspire this thread, albeit with a radically different approach (delete Hasten) that didn't "give away" 10-20% more recharge at no cost.

 

This not wanting to give in to "power creep" is the hill upon which @Steampunkette is dying.  Rather than just saying, "meh, I think giving everyone 10-20% more recharge is too much", they charged into "let's re-think Hasten and recharge entirely for everyone", and won't let it go.  This whole pointless exercise for 23 (!) pages (so far) was born from resistance to giving everyone a little more free candy.  As I pointed out in this and other threads, "power creep" -- in and of itself -- is a terrible justification for saying "no" in an MMO whose entire history has been about "power creep".  From Issue 1 to the present, "power creep" has been the driving force of all changes -- both good and bad -- in City of Heroes.  And giving everyone 10-20% more recharge, while not ideal, is probably the easiest thing to do without upsetting too many other apple carts.  If that's too much, fine, just say "/jranger" and drive on.

 

Most of my builds already have around +100% recharge without Hasten, by using IO set bonuses and 5 LotG +Recharge procs.  Some of my builds also include Hasten, which adds another 70%.  But about 50% of that is useless to me, because of diminishing returns.  However, having an additional 10-20% would be quite useful to me, allowing me to drop Hasten altogether in those builds.  I'd gladly sacrifice 50% (useless) recharge for another few percent defense, or status protection, or a utility power.  Again, full disclosure: I just want more free candy.  I'm not claiming to offer any great improvement to overall "game balance" or the future of game play.  Take that for what it's worth (which is probably less than a fart in a whirlwind).

 

And you can already get this bonus by way of incarnates. Take the right incarnate and get a 45 percent bonus to all recharge 2/3s of which can by pass enhancement diversification. So once again, what is being sought is available to you, however I am sure the response will be "but I need to take alpha X because I need the Y effect it offers in my build" Which is your exact same issue for why you want a small inherent buff and to nerf hasten so you can pick something else. Essentially you are being presented with a choice. Do you want that extra few percentages of resistance or defense or whatever, or do you want hasten. And you pick that you would prefer both essentially. Well character building is about tradeoffs. And the same thing is present in Incarnate slots. There is a reason why you can not take a alpha that buffs, damage, acc, control, recharge, end mod, and end red all in one pick. Because it is a CHOICE which you want the most. 

Nothinig with Hasten's current power level or selection requires you to take it. If you wish to skip it, in most all cases you can, you can get its same benefit from other means like IO sets and then take the powers you want to replace it with to your liking. OR you can take hasten and then use IO choices to fill in the def or res etc that you otherwise gave up taking hasten. The point it is a build choice. But what you are saying is nerf hasten requiring that thousands of characters have to be completely retooled that are happy the way they are because you don't think you should have to make a choice between taking hasten and taking combat jumping. 

You are right, you suggestion as nothing to do with wanting balance it has to do with wanting everything you want at the exspense of people that are happy with what they have. 

 

[William Valence]

36 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Sorry! 12 Mag 1 attacks at 8.6 damage. 8.6 at level 1 is 1 Magnitude of damage. As you level up the damage increases per mag but so do your hit points in a nonlinear manner (Takes more Mags as you get up in level because HP grows on a slightly different line to allow for greater magnitude variety without insta-killing PCs, this is why Alphas tend to kill squishies instantly while more leisurely combat gives them more room to maneuver: All the enemies are throwing their higher mags at once)

 

8.6 damage hits you 11 times and you go from 100hp to 5.4HP, but you've probably had a Regen Tick or Two in there over the course of normal combat, so the 12th hit finishes you off.

 

It's important to note: You don't fight 1 enemy throwing Mag 1 attacks at you at level 1. You fight 3. And typically a Lieutenant throwing Mag 1.3 attacks. So unless you narrow out the field (Whether through controls or murder) you can rack up those 12 hits in as little as 15-20 seconds.

Yup, and considering everything is so variable, part of my confusion is how those numbers, +14% rech and +30% enemy health, maintain a TTK:TTD ratio, considering both are so variable, and I still don't know what the TTD is that you're using in your examination, or the TTK but that's something else entirely.

 

The numbers for hasten look wrong, with its minimum input being 14% not 8% unless you're overcapped at which point hasten itself isn't important. Meaning it's average and median effect would be higher than 14%.

 

It's a lot of change that can't be verified to do what they are intended as the metrics used to determine the changes don't make sense.

[QuiJon]

2 minutes ago, Zepp said:

I've actually gone into reworking some of my builds to see if they can be just as functional without Hasten. What I've found is that Perma-PA is just out of reach (but it is close enough to be functionally perma), you need about 122.5% Global Recharge for Perma-Dom (5 purples and 5 LotGs is 82.5% and that gets you most of the way there). Most other builds I've tried really didn't need Hasten either. While I understand both perspectives, in reality Hasten is popular because people think it is OP, not because it is OP. Furthermore, a good many people invest in excessive amounts of recharge to get perma-hasten, thus making their build less effective because of Hasten.

I think the community needs to move away from Hasten, but I am not sure changing the power is the way to handle what is fundamentally a social problem...

Accept you are then REQUIRING that if I want to build I perma-dom I have to take 5 powers that can slot defense, and be able to afford 5 powers worth of 5slotted purples to obtain it. Where currently it is available with hasten without having to be so exacting. So getting rid of the current state of hasten essentially will mean that anyone that wants that reward will now just be making cookie cutter builds that have CJ, Hover, Stealth, Manuevers, and the fighting pool to get to weave. I think the minority of the community that doesn't like hasten should just decide for themselves to not take it, and leave the rest of us alone that want it because it gives us freedom to actually make the characters we want instead of taking half our power choices to just fit into a certain build mechanic.  If you admit that hasten is not OP then it doesn't need to be nerfed. Why does it matter how I choose to build my toon in comparison with how you build yours?

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I was going to just shake my head and move on, this thread highlights exactly why I am losing more and more interest in the homecoming of CoH. People who want to basically rebuild it from the ground up by knocking out the corner stones that people built their characters around.

 

For starters Id point out that a great many people who do take hasten take it either in the 12-20 range or as their last power choice. The first because for a great many builds there is usually at least one of those teen lvls where the power choices even in primary and 2ndaries are just meh and offer very little to the over all build. Enter hasten, of all the pools its one that in itself doesnt impact thematic concepts, can have its graphics turned off to not be a visual conflict, It can just be fit into so many builds for some MODEST gain. I say MODEST because on a great many of those builds hasten is not really that great. This is the case for every build heavy in toggles or has an excess of attacks so as to not really need to tighten up an attack chain.

 

For example lets look at a street justice/ willpower scrapper vs a claw/regen scrapper. For the SJ/WP global recharge is of very modest benefit compared to all sorts of other options, and it will likely be better off with another useful toggle then a click that doesnt do all that much for most of its power choices. Meanwhile over on the Claw/Regen global recharge is the biggest buff it can ask to all of its major power choices.

 

Lets not forget how powerful an unarmed melee power set can be when adding in things like Air Superiority and cross punch. Additional attacks that weapon based sets must forgo entirely as to use them is to gimp oneself.

 

Hasten is good. But then again enhanced speed/reflexes are also some of the most common abilities in comics. Most mutants in marvel for example used to be described as having at least an above human average when it came to physical attributes. Speedsters in DC on top of kryptonians and the like are all super speedsters. Super speed and being able to react in the nick of time is a staple of the entire genre. So honestly the fact that its not more widely used due to concept alone shows me its not nearly OP nor game breaking.

 

IMO Swift being given a 10% would be fine, Same with Super Speed, and could be done without needing to nerf hasten as ways for those who dont want hasten to get a bit of extra recharge. Perhaps a new special recharge speed IO that goes in the same universal travel set slots that currently get used for KB protection would allow those seeking more speed alternatives an option without outright power creep as it would create competition for the set mule powers slots.

 

I never take hasten on toggle heavy characters just like I never take an unarmed attack from a pool on a weapon power user. Or like I always take recall friend on my stalkers typically. Some powers share a synergy, and some do not.

 

IMO nothing in this long winded thread comes anywhere near making me buy into the hasten is a must have power anymore then it does to paint it as an OP power that needs to be broken and have some of its power diverted elsewhere.

 

My gut tells me a lot in this thread is fueled by people who typically build differently wanting to take a nerf bat to those that they see as rivals on forum and in game play style.

[Cooltastic]

10 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

"Hasten is always taken because it alone is a MUST HAVE"

 

And there it is, folks. That's the problem. The power is simply too damned good.

 

Tell me, Cooltastic, what could we do to, say, the Stealth power that would make you choose it -over- Hasten? What buffs, what changes, what overwhelming power would Stealth need that you choose Stealth but -not- Hasten?

 

Because that's what it would take to make "Buff the other pool powers" a reasonable suggestion. A massive power increase across the board to all the power pools so that Hasten is no longer a "Must Have"

 

You wanna talk about Power Creep? That shit would be Power Dash. Power Mach 1.

What would make me choose stealth over hasten? That's an easy one, toss that -speed debuff right out the damn window because I simply can't stand it and I'd take Stealth a hell of a lot more now that you can turn the FX off. Before that I strictly wouldn't take it unless I had a character concept that was ok with being translucent, like a ghost or something. I don't pic powers because they're they're considered better than other powers, I pick powers based on character concept and looks. Hell my main is a human PB with Nova, Dwarf, or Light Form. Point made.

 

I do take hasten a lot now because you can also turn the FX off so it doesn't clash with your character now, and it keeps you able to keep attacking more often instead of standing around waiting on cooldowns.

[Cooltastic]

Anyway, this will all become moot pretty soon. Once all the Origin Pool Sets make it into the game. Those will offer more choice to your pool pics that are worthwhile. Then hopefully they will take a look at some of the older underutilized sets and see what can be done to improve them. Hell, a lot of great idea's were posted on how to improve the teleportation set.

 

With IO's and set bonuses you don't NEED hasten. Nobody does. Like I said, it's mostly taken because there's not much else in the pool sets anyone WANTs to take other than Fighting and Leadership because they work for a mass majority of character concepts without clashing.

 

Hasten doesn't need to be touched in the slightest. So that's where I stand on the subject.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Cooltastic

[Haijinx]

5 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

 

 

My gut tells me a lot in this thread is fueled by people who typically build differently wanting to take a nerf bat to those that they see as rivals on forum and in game play style.

I think Steampunkette is genuinely interested in improving the game.

 

I just don't agree with what she wants to do here. 

[Infinitum]

32 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

There is why this thread is still going on and demonstrates the vast gulf between those who actually want to improve games and those that just want to screw with them.

 

People who  actually want balance can articulate what that balance should be at the very least what their idea of it should be and then at least form a factual argument based on performance or observable features of the game that something violates that balance.

 

Other people just stir up hornets nests.

I have never in my life seen such foaming at the mouth devotion to a failed idea as this.  Im actually rather amused at it at this point just watching post after post after post defending an idea that would basically torpedo the whole game community not because it would ruin the vast majority of builds, but mainly because NOBODY really wants it changed or removed.

 

busybody work in the most look at me look at me stylings.

[Razor Cure]

13 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

IMO Swift being given a 10% would be fine, Same with Super Speed, and could be done without needing to nerf hasten as ways for those who dont want hasten to get a bit of extra recharge. Perhaps a new special recharge speed IO that goes in the same universal travel set slots that currently get used for KB protection would allow those seeking more speed alternatives an option without outright power creep as it would create competition for the set mule powers slots.

I like these ideas. Super Speed having a bit of +rech makes sense..I mean..you can run X times as fast as other people, but you CANT move your hands X times faster when attacking etc? As an aside..Flurry giving a bit more +rech could be good (since the power sucks). The Rech IO is also a nice idea, and would do very little for those with perma hasten, and be great for those who dont use it at all.

 

11 minutes ago, Cooltastic said:

That's an easy one, toss that -speed debuff right out the damn window because I simply can't stand it and I'd take Stealth a hell of a lot more now that you can turn the FX off.

Really? I literally have NEVER noticed the speed debuff from Stealth. Ever.

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Razor Cure

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think Steampunkette is genuinely interested in improving the game.

 

I just don't agree with what she wants to do here. 

I think you are correct,

 

but its a bit vain to cling to an idea this bad just because its their idea as the way to do it, and then also to cling to it when the majority wants nothing to do with it.

 

Especially when it in the grand scheme of things accomplishes nothing but reworking the whole game around whats basically a zero sum change in most cases.

[TheAdjustor]

9 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think Steampunkette is genuinely interested in improving the game.

 

I just don't agree with what she wants to do here. 

I would say at least at the current time and this thread in particular, the motivation is to leave a mark on the game.

[Steampunkette]

19 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think Steampunkette is genuinely interested in improving the game.

 

I just don't agree with what she wants to do here. 

Thank you for having that faith in me, even if we don't agree. I really do appreciate it!

 

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Oh we are definitely clinging to it because its always been.

 

Thats where the urgent comes in.  

 

If you were to redesign COH mechanics you definitely would have a much weaker hasten.  

 

But mechanical inertia in games is a real thing.  And its not always bad.

Mechanical Inertia isn't -always- bad. That's why we have the cottage rule.

 

But it seems to me that in this case? Mechanical Inertia is giving people the idea that Hasten is "Fine". That it's not Overpowered. That it's perfectly balanced as a pool power 'cause Cryptic put it in and never changed it.

 

But then again, Cryptic stuck with mechanical inertia on Stamina and the Fitness pool in general for 18 issues of people spending a pool pick and 3 power picks on something they eventually realized would be better suited as a part of every single build without fail.

 

I think Hasten is kind of in the same boat. Maybe not -quite- as massively tied to baseline combat as Stamina, obviously. But it's become such a central pillar of player experience, and is so terrible OP compared to it's contemporaries... 

39 minutes ago, William Valence said:

Yup, and considering everything is so variable, part of my confusion is how those numbers, +14% rech and +30% enemy health, maintain a TTK:TTD ratio, considering both are so variable, and I still don't know what the TTD is that you're using in your examination, or the TTK but that's something else entirely.

 

The numbers for hasten look wrong, with its minimum input being 14% not 8% unless you're overcapped at which point hasten itself isn't important. Meaning it's average and median effect would be higher than 14%.

 

It's a lot of change that can't be verified to do what they are intended as the metrics used to determine the changes don't make sense.

... so I went over all my calculations trying to find the error and I found it:

 

The Value is 1/2 for 100%, 2/3 for 200%. Not 1/2 for 100%, 3/4 for 200%.

 

Fuck me... I'll be back Sunday with a new calculation...

 

Also the TTK is pretty variable, particularly once you start getting into Defensive Buffs (+Def, +Res, +Regen) and Defensive Debuff (-Acc, -ToHit, -Rech, -Dam) powers.

 

Once I get up into figuring out expected outputs at levels higher than 12 I find it's easier to just grab a random selection of NPCs of that level, choose a Baseline PC for that level, and go Second by Second through the combat on Paper.

 

Like literally mapping out the Arcanatime for each attack for each combatant on their specific powers' damage and recharge rates based on 'Optimized Play'. That is to fire off the big attacks first so their recharge starts. 

 

Then I find out how long everything takes and modify the stats of the different powers and combatants in opposite directions to find out how far from the TTK I found in that combat the modifiers move things.

[Steampunkette]

50 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

I would say at least at the current time and this thread in particular, the motivation is to leave a mark on the game.

Never guess people's motivations. In the best case scenario it's rude and accurate. In the worst case scenario it's outright offensive. This is not the best case.

[TheAdjustor]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Never guess people's motivations. In the best case scenario it's rude and accurate. In the worst case scenario it's outright offensive. This is not the best case.

Res Ipsa Loquitor

- The thing speaks for itself.

[Infinitum]

19 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Never guess people's motivations. In the best case scenario it's rude and accurate. In the worst case scenario it's outright offensive. This is not the best case.

This whole thread is offensive to think you can best mandate a choice for the whole game population just because you think its too popular.

[PaxArcana]

I feel compelled to make an observation.  One I am sure that the majority of the people in this thread will .... dislike, let us say (heavens know, even I don't especially like it).  Nonetheless:

The debate has consistently failed to focus on the merits (or lack thereof) of the actual suggestion, and has instead, focused primarily on @Steampunkette.  The pattern has been one of Bulverism: simply assuming that she is wrong, and then attempting to explain why ... when, one should first show that she is wrong.  This approach is a logical fallacy.

Nor are her opponents alone in this failing.  Mea Culpa, guilty-as-charged, and all that.

Anyway, in the words of C.S. Lewis - the man who initially coined the term:

 

Quote

Suppose I think, after doing my accounts, that I have a large balance at the bank. And suppose you want to find out whether this belief of mine is "wishful thinking." You can never come to any conclusion by examining my psychological condition. Your only chance of finding out is to sit down and work through the sum yourself. When you have checked my figures, then, and then only, will you know whether I have that balance or not. If you find my arithmetic correct, then no amount of vapouring about my psychological condition can be anything but a waste of time. If you find my arithmetic wrong, then it may be relevant to explain psychologically how I came to be so bad at my arithmetic, and the doctrine of the concealed wish will become relevant—but only after you have yourself done the sum and discovered me to be wrong on purely arithmetical grounds. It is the same with all thinking and all systems of thought. If you try to find out which are tainted by speculating about the wishes of the thinkers, you are merely making a fool of yourself. You must first find out on purely logical grounds which of them do, in fact, break down as arguments. Afterwards, if you like, go on and discover the psychological causes of the error.

 

Argue the idea, not the person.

 

(And no, I'm not saying I'm pure as the driven snow - not even just in this thread.  It's an easy fallacy to fall into.  But, just for the moment, I'm feeling especially lucid and level-headed, so ... maybe I can be a "voice of wisdom" for just a brief moment.  Don't worry, I'm sure it won't last very long.  )

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, PaxArcana said:

I feel compelled to make an observation.  One I am sure that the majority of the people in this thread will .... dislike, let us say (heavens know, even I don't especially like it).  Nonetheless:

The debate has consistently failed to focus on the merits (or lack thereof) of the actual suggestion, and has instead, focused primarily on @Steampunkette.  The pattern has been one of Bulverism: simply assuming that she is wrong, and then attempting to explain why ... when, one should first show that she is wrong.  This approach is a logical fallacy.

Nor are her opponents alone in this failing.  Mea Culpa, guilty-as-charged, and all that.

Anyway, in the words of C.S. Lewis - the man who initially coined the term:

 

 

Argue the idea, not the person.

 

(And no, I'm not saying I'm pure as the driven snow - not even just in this thread.  It's an easy fallacy to fall into.  But, just for the moment, I'm feeling especially lucid and level-headed, so ... maybe I can be a "voice of wisdom" for just a brief moment.  Don't worry, I'm sure it won't last very long.  )

There is no idea here. It was destroyed long ago. It has been killed many ways.

 

The rationale for doing so has been destroyed (Too many people take it is not a reason to nerf it. Apple pie is the most popular pie, lets add insect parts until it's no longer popular)

 

The math behind the proposed changes has been repeatedly destroyed (where it has been presented) the current 13% and 30% seems to be pulled completely from a dark place best left unmentioned

 

The "Benefits" of this change have ranged from "balance" to "Screwing with player's psychology". This doesn't even begin to pass muster.

 

At some point the motivation behind this becomes suspect.