DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[Bossk_Hogg]

8 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Hasten on it's own is a little on the too powerful side. Compare a cyclic 70% recharge rate buff (Averaging out over it's recharge-cycle to an 18.6% recharge rate buff) to any other pool power and tell me if any are as good? Especially since by slotting it for recharge (And it's recharge affecting itself) you can increase the buff to literally all support, control, heal, and damage powers.

 

There's just nothing that compares at all.

 

And no. My argument isn't that the game is "Too easy with it" in such a myopic perspective that just changing my -own- playstyle or content engagement means anything, Macskull. It's that as a power it's just too strong to be in a power pool where everyone can grab it.

 

I don't get why people keep trying to insist "Well you shouldn't use it, then, problem solved!" The problem isn't whether or not I use it, the problem is that it's too damned strong and popular because of it's strength.

 

This also wouldn't "Make things more difficult for difficulty's sake". The latest suggestion literally keeps the difficulty right around where it is. It changes the game to deal with an outlier without upsetting the status quo 'too much'.

Citation needed. You sure like throw out accusations of fallalcies, but your entire argument boils down to "too many take it" as if appealing against popularity/frequency was a worthy goal in itself, and that YOU think it's too good. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Steampunkette]

11 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Citation needed. You sure like throw out accusations of fallalcies, but your entire argument boils down to "too many take it" as if appealing against popularity/frequency was a worthy goal in itself, and that YOU think it's too good. 

Citation of what is needed, Bossk?

 

That it's more powerful than it's contemporaries? Okay. Let's go power pool by power pool in alphabetical order: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

 

Concealment:

Stealth: Increases defenses slightly and provides 35ft stealth increase. 

Grant Invisibility: Grants an ally slight defense increase and provides 45ft stealth increase.

 

Neither of these powers increase the relative power of your attack, control, or healing effects.

 

Fighting: 

Boxing: A minor attack that gains increased damage and chance to stun if you take other powers.

Kick: A minor attack that gains increased damage and chance to KB if you take other powers.

 

Neither of these powers increases the relative power of your attack, control, healing, buff, or debuff effects.

 

You can go pool by pool and none of the "One Dip" powers have the same far reaching affects as Hasten does. Not Flight. Not Leadership. Not Leaping. None of them.

 

As to 'appealing against popularity/frequency' that's not a fallacy. That's a datapoint in the 'It is largely viewed as mandatory for builds, demonstrated by how many people take it at 50.'

Edited September 27, 2019 by Steampunkette

[pattycake]

Hasten is overused, I don't think it being over used is a problem. I think its the lack of implementation of other mechanics giving players opportunities to choose builds around. They could implement a PPslot that increases activation speeds at the cost of recharge and have the player choose whether or not they want haste or latter. There could be PPslots that absurdly increase the accuracy no defense can evade at the cost of a damage reduction. These kinds of things interest me, in the principle I think we are all talking about; the meta. 

 

Haste being so powerful and popular isn't a bad thing, its a good thing, and more powers like hasten should implemented to give players choice. I'm just throwing that out there for you guys to digest.

Edited September 27, 2019 by ToZ
My grammar is terrible

[TheAdjustor]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Citation of what is needed, Bossk?

 

That it's more powerful than it's contemporaries? Okay. Let's go power pool by power pool in alphabetical order: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

 

Concealment:

Stealth: Increases defenses slightly and provides 35ft stealth increase. 

Grant Invisibility: Grants an ally slight defense increase and provides 45ft stealth increase.

 

Neither of these powers increase the relative power of your attack, control, or healing effects.

 

Fighting: 

Boxing: A minor attack that gains increased damage and chance to stun if you take other powers.

Kick: A minor attack that gains increased damage and chance to KB if you take other powers.

 

Neither of these powers increases the relative power of your attack, control, healing, buff, or debuff effects.

 

You can go pool by pool and none of the "One Dip" powers have the same far reaching affects as Hasten does. Not Flight. Not Leadership. Not Leaping. None of them.

Concealment is potentially a near 40 % increase to your survivability.

 

Example you are at 42% defense without Concealment taking it and 3 slotting it will get you to the cap and potentially another 7.5% global recharge. Far too powerful

 

Lets eliminate all defense in pool powers, especially weave seeing as it's the number 3 most taken pool power.

Edited September 27, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[nihilii]

13 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Hasten on it's own is a little on the too powerful side. Compare a cyclic 70% recharge rate buff (Averaging out over it's recharge-cycle to an 18.6% recharge rate buff) to any other pool power and tell me if any are as good?

You keep making this argument and ignoring the counterpoint a pool power vs pool power comparison in a vacuum simply doesn't make any sense.

(By the way, Combat Jumping is objectively superior to Hasten or any other pool power, and possibly any other power in the game, potentially by a factor of infinity. Those who know know. 😉 )

 

This whole crusade of yours to make sweeping changes to a million variables because a power is strong and popular is, at best, misguided. Gameplay ought to be organic, evolving from the initial theory and not ruled by it.

Best example: GunZ the duel. An awful third-person shooter had so many glitches, you could use these glitches to turn the game into a completely different beast, and the net result was an incredibly high skill ceiling experience. Without the glitches, it would have been forgotten 10 years ago. Thanks to the glitches, it still enjoys diehard fans and even has a sequel where the developers incorporated the glitches as gameplay features.

When something doesn't behave as expected, bad devs try to force the game to behave like their original vision (hello Jack). Good devs take a serendipitous approach, evaluating the unexpected to see if it's a positive or a negative.

You still haven't started to make a case for Hasten as a negative. "It's strong" is not a negative. "It's popular" is not a negative. "It's better than other pool powers [except Combat Jumping]" is not a negative.

 

Personally, I wholeheartedly believe it's a positive, have argued why previously ITT (in short: it makes the game mechanically more interesting and psychologically more rewarding). It's been part of the game for so long it's very easy to argue it's part of the core gameplay loop, too.

Don't mess with core gameplay loops, yo. Unless you've got a very, very good reason to do so.

[Purrfekshawn]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

You can go pool by pool and none of the "One Dip" powers have the same far reaching affects as Hasten does. Not Flight. Not Leadership. Not Leaping. None of them.

Well. Leadership's Assault and Maneuvers might have really devastating effect, l took them almost on all toons:

Assault - 8 players with it will give +80%, enough to draw near the Damage Cap. One Kinetics will already suffer from its exceeding, especially if DPS use Assault Core Embodiment/Assault Total Core Genome if not T4.

Maneuvers - +20% defense, almost half of it to softcap everyone's defense.

 

Fighting:

Tough & Weave are likely mandatory not only for Tankers and Brutes, but also for any character that means to be sturdy, like Scrappers, Stalkers, Sentinels.

 

Leaping:

Combat Jumping is essentially Defense increase with only symbolic END cost, that also provides better jump control.

[Bossk_Hogg]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Citation of what is needed, Bossk?

 

That it's more powerful than it's contemporaries? Okay. Let's go power pool by power pool in alphabetical order: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

 

Concealment:

Stealth: Increases defenses slightly and provides 35ft stealth increase. 

Grant Invisibility: Grants an ally slight defense increase and provides 45ft stealth increase.

 

Neither of these powers increase the relative power of your attack, control, or healing effects.

 

Fighting: 

Boxing: A minor attack that gains increased damage and chance to stun if you take other powers.

Kick: A minor attack that gains increased damage and chance to KB if you take other powers.

 

Neither of these powers increases the relative power of your attack, control, healing, buff, or debuff effects.

 

You can go pool by pool and none of the "One Dip" powers have the same far reaching affects as Hasten does. Not Flight. Not Leadership. Not Leaping. None of them.

 

As to 'appealing against popularity/frequency' that's not a fallacy. That's a datapoint in the 'It is largely viewed as mandatory for builds, demonstrated by how many people take it at 50.'

That it's "TOO" powerful, which is your personal opinion. It might be the MOST powerful, for some builds, but that is quite different than TOO powerful. Particularly given that the other pools are indeed trash. Boxing and Kick not being worthy of slots is a separate issue. Nerfing hasten doesnt make them good attacks. 

 

Moreover, if a bunch of forum groupthink declare it mandatory, that isn't an argument either. It's not mandatory, and in many of said builds, it isnt even necessarily DOING that much for them given the large amounts of global recharge flying around. I see similar claims that Tough and Weave are NEEDED, and chuckle.

 

Your fallacy is thinking that something popular and powerful needs to be changed because simply its popular and powerful.  I would imagine a similar number of end game characters slot LOTG recharge, the 3% global defense IO's, Miracle and Numina uniques, etc. 

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, ToZ said:

Hasten is overused, I don't think it being over used is a problem. I think its the lack of implementation of other mechanics that give player builds choices. They could implement a PPslot that increases activation speeds at the cost of recharge and have the player choose whether or not they want haste or latter. There could be PPslots that absurdly increase the accuracy no defense can evade at the cost of a damage reduction. These kinds of things interest me, in the principle I think we are all talking about; the meta. 

 

Haste being so powerful and popular isn't a bad thing, its a good thing, and more powers like hasten should implemented to give players choice. I'm just throwing that out there for you guys to digest.

I'm not saying it being popular is a bad thing. I'm saying it being so powerful is a bad thing and it's popularity is because of how powerful it is.

 

Creating equally powerful contemporaries is close to impossible because there's basically no function of player powers that is as strong as the feedback loop of Recharge Rate improvements.

 

 

Animation times, for example, unless something has changed that I'm unaware of, are tied to the power itself and are fixed. While we can reduce the animation time of a power (Like Total Focus for Blasters) it's still hard coded into the power once you take it.

 

For something like Titan Weapons and Momentum there's actually multiple power 'cards' that get pulled based on whether you have Momentum or not. Different copies of the same power.;

3 minutes ago, nihilii said:

You keep making this argument and ignoring the counterpoint a pool power vs pool power comparison in a vacuum simply doesn't make any sense.

(By the way, Combat Jumping is objectively superior to Hasten or any other pool power, and possibly any other power in the game, potentially by a factor of infinity. Those who know know. 😉 )

 

This whole crusade of yours to make sweeping changes to a million variables because a power is strong and popular is, at best, misguided. Gameplay ought to be organic, evolving from the initial theory and not ruled by it.

Best example: GunZ the duel. An awful third-person shooter had so many glitches, you could use these glitches to turn the game into a completely different beast, and the net result was an incredibly high skill ceiling experience. Without the glitches, it would have been forgotten 10 years ago. Thanks to the glitches, it still enjoys diehard fans and even has a sequel where the developers incorporated the glitches as gameplay features.

When something doesn't behave as expected, bad devs try to force the game to behave like their original vision (hello Jack). Good devs take a serendipitous approach, evaluating the unexpected to see if it's a positive or a negative.

You still haven't started to make a case for Hasten as a negative. "It's strong" is not a negative. "It's popular" is not a negative. "It's better than other pool powers [except Combat Jumping]" is not a negative.

 

Personally, I wholeheartedly believe it's a positive, have argued why previously ITT (in short: it makes the game mechanically more interesting and psychologically more rewarding). It's been part of the game for so long it's very easy to argue it's part of the core gameplay loop, too.

Don't mess with core gameplay loops, yo. Unless you've got a very, very good reason to do so.

Pool Powers versus Pool Powers is the only way to balance them... And it isn't in a vacuum at all, otherwise a Recharge buff would lose to Kick. If Hasten were in a vacuum it would increase only it's own recharge rate and kick would kick enemies, making it the superior power.

 

It's only in the larger context of the game that Hasten becomes the superior power. 

 

As to making a case that it's a negative: It being overpowered compared to it's contemporaries IS a negative from a gameplay design standpoint. It being so popular that it bottlenecks character structure IS a negative from a gameplay design standpoint. It locks people's limited power choices. It locks people's limited power pool choices. It's the basis of the game's meta to the point that not taking it is essentially self-gimping.

 

That Recharge Rate is valued? Not so much a negative. That's just an organic function of gameplay.

 

So keep the organic function and fix the game design problems. The bottlenecky design, the overpowered power, the limiting of player choice.

 

Build Hasten into the base game so that people don't have to choose it. It's just a part of how things work.

 

Kind of like how the GunZ devs incorporated the glitch into the next game. Take the overpowered power, remove it from the player's choice, and incorporate it into the base function.

 

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Well. Leadership's Assault and Maneuvers might have really devastating effect, l took them almost on all toons:

Assault - 8 players with it will give +80%, enough to draw near the Damage Cap. One Kinetics will already suffer from its exceeding, especially if DPS use Assault Core Embodiment/Assault Total Core Genome if not T4.

Maneuvers - +20% defense, almost half of it to softcap everyone's defense.

 

Fighting:

Tough & Weave are likely mandatory not only for Tankers and Brutes, but also for any character that means to be sturdy, like Scrappers, Stalkers, Sentinels.

 

Leaping:

Combat Jumping is essentially Defense increase with only symbolic END cost, that also provides better jump control.

Assault and Leadership can affect a team in a big way, absolutely. But it REQUIRES 8 players to all take it and team together. One person taking it? Not so big an improvement. Still nice to have. Would you choose Assault or Maneuvers over Hasten? Especially since Hasten also applies to Build Up and Mind Link and...

 

Tough and Weave are not contemporary powers to Hasten. They're gated. And even if they weren't they -only- affect one specific piece of your character's build. Defense or Damage Resistance. Hasten also applies to self-heals, attacks, click-defenses, controls...

 

Combat Jumping is a nifty power, but it only improves one or two narrow functions. Hasten improves -many-.

[Bossk_Hogg]

I fail to see how a single optional power pick is a bottleneck. Is Build Up a bottleneck? Mez protection for tanks?

[Purrfekshawn]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

Combat Jumping is a nifty power, but it only improves one or two narrow functions. Hasten improves -many-.

Hasten improves only one function - it reduces power cooldowns. It does nothing with your Toggle powers. Nor it does with your Autopowers. Doesn't increase Regeneration Rate/Recovery Rate, Range, Damage, Accuracy, Resistance, Defense etc... Incarnate abilities like lncarnate Judgement Nukes, Lore Pets, Destily Slot, Hybrid Slot are NOT touched by its CD reduction.

 

It does a thing for click powers like self-heals. And makes some rotation smooth and require less number of different powers. Another kinds of rotations, though, won't be affected by Hasten very much (especially if you score high Recharge with set bonuses like LoTG already). And then a build with no clicked Cooldowns or few of them (Willpower, for instance, which ultimate Strength of Will doesn't benefit from CD reduction) will benefit from Hasten very poorly, and it'll be very skippable on it.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Once again, the game is not balanced around the IO system.

Nor are there any "bottlenecks" in build variety given that hasten is not a hard requirement.  You do not need to take it.  You can literally build thousands of combinations of builds without hasten. 

[Steampunkette]

6 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

That it's "TOO" powerful, which is your personal opinion. It might be the MOST powerful, for some builds, but that is quite different than TOO powerful. Particularly given that the other pools are indeed trash. Boxing and Kick not being worthy of slots is a separate issue. Nerfing hasten doesnt make them good attacks. 

 

Moreover, if a bunch of forum groupthink declare it mandatory, that isn't an argument either. It's not mandatory, and in many of said builds, it isnt even necessarily DOING that much for them given the large amounts of global recharge flying around. I see similar claims that Tough and Weave are NEEDED, and chuckle.

 

Your fallacy is thinking that something popular and powerful needs to be changed because simply its popular and powerful.  I would imagine a similar number of end game characters slot LOTG recharge, the 3% global defense IO's, Miracle and Numina uniques, etc. 

The point of Power Pools is that they're basically Trash. They're not meant to be as strong as your primary or secondary powers. They're supposed to be 'Flavor Picks' rather than Mandatory. Hasten is basically as strong as "Quickness" from SR out of the gate, but can be enhanced to increase it's overall effectiveness while Quickness cannot.

 

In the context of game design something being more powerful than it's contemporaries is a bad thing. That's why Nerfs exist. And Buffs, too. That's why powersets and archetypes and individual powers get balanced. It's a way to try and keep the game fair and fun.

 

That's not a Fallacy. That's a logical conclusion. A Fallacy is when you use faulty reasoning to create a point in a discussion. There's a lot of fallacious arguments that have been catalogued. And we've seen a lot of them, here. Like the Strawman fallacy, where you don't debate a point the opposition made, but construct an argument tangentially based on a single point made by the opposition and then defeat that false argument with a logical conclusion. Or the Slippery Slop fallacy, where you infer that because of one change occurring, an unrelated change on a loose tangent of thinking must also occur at some point in the future.

 

 

[Bossk_Hogg]

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The point of Power Pools is that they're basically Trash. They're not meant to be as strong as your primary or secondary powers. They're supposed to be 'Flavor Picks' rather than Mandatory.

 

I find that a much bigger design issue personally. Buffing them to be viable would also piss less people off, and would encourage build diversity. Also removing the limitation on the new origin pools would make for more variety, as they look pretty good.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Starforge]

Oh but don’t suggest making crappy powers better. We have to bring good ones down to their level.

[Moka]

I would be for removing hasten if we got an inherent perma 70% recharge boost. Or again, if it were inherent. With the amount of hoops you have to jump through to even make hasten "worth it", for perma hasten, is a chore on its own.

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Hasten improves only one function - it reduces power cooldowns. It does nothing with your Toggle powers. Nor it does with your Autopowers. Doesn't increase Regeneration Rate/Recovery Rate, Range, Damage, Accuracy, Resistance, Defense etc... Incarnate abilities like lncarnate Judgement Nukes, Lore Pets, Destily Slot, Hybrid Slot are NOT touched by its CD reduction.

 

It does a thing for click powers like self-heals. And makes some rotation smooth and require less number of different powers. Another kinds of rotations, though, won't be affected by Hasten very much (especially if you score high Recharge with set bonuses like LoTG already). And then a build with no clicked Cooldowns or few of them (Willpower, for instance, which ultimate Strength of Will doesn't benefit from CD reduction) will benefit from Hasten very poorly, and it'll be very skippable on it.

It increases your click healing by making it recharge faster allowing more clicks in a given period (Whether self-targeting, ally targeting, or area of effect). It increases your click damage by making it recharge faster allowing more clicks in a given period (Whether ranged, melee, single target, or AoE). It increases your Debuff Capability for click debuffs by making it recharge faster allowing more clicks in a given period (Whether single target or AoE, defense, tohit, resistance, damage, speed, recharge, etc etc etc). It increases your buff capability for click debuffs by making it recharge faster allowing more clicks in a given period (Whether single target or AoE, defense, tohit, resistance, damage, recharge, etc etc etc). It increases your click based Control powers by making it recharge faster allowing more clicks in a given period (Whether AoE, Melee, Single Target, Immob, Hold, Confuse, Stun, Etc etc etc and increases your Mag Stacking window)

 

It is easier to list the things it does not affect, which amounts to "Toggles and Autopowers and Powers that Ignore Recharge Rate Modifications". Oh. Except for Telekinesis and Dimension Shift. Toggles with a long recharge time.

 

We also don't balance the game around IO Set Bonuses... but if we did.... it would make Hasten even MORE VALUABLE. Not less so. Otherwise less level 50 characters would take it, not the 83% as it stands.

[Steampunkette]

5 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I find that a much bigger design issue personally. Buffing them to be viable would also piss less people off...

There's no way to buff all the power pools to be as good as Hasten. It's effects are just too far-reaching.

4 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Oh but don’t suggest making crappy powers better. We have to bring good ones down to their level.

There's no way to buff all the power pools to be as good as Hasten. It's effects are just too far-reaching.

1 minute ago, Moka said:

I would be for removing hasten if we got an inherent perma 70% recharge boost. Or again, if it were inherent. With the amount of hoops you have to jump through to even make hasten "worth it", for perma hasten, is a chore on its own.

My third suggestion -basically- gives everyone Permahasten.

 

By reducing all cooldowns by 14% -before- applying any Recharge Rate Modifications to them, it mimics the effects of permahasten at almost all levels except the most extreme values. And even in those extreme cases it's still possible to push a tiny bit harder than people are currently pushing to get right back to the full effects.

 

It also reduces the recharge rate for everyone who -doesn't- take Hasten, obviously, so an HP increase for NPCs is there to help offset the increase in damage dealing capabilities.

[nihilii]

22 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

In the context of game design something being more powerful than it's contemporaries is a bad thing.

This is incorrect both on a theoretical level and on a practical level.

Something being more powerful than its contemporaries can result in negative consequences given specific circumstances. But something being more powerful than its contemporaries does not necessarily result in negative consequences in all circumstances.

In the context of CoH, if the "something" is an AT or a powerset, it might trivialize other ATs and powersets. But if the "something" is one power pool pick... You can't exactly trivialize other choices and players, because you're left with many other choices. In the case of Hasten it actually opens the window for *more* choices through builds planning for specific goals (attack chains, power uptimes).

Game design isn't quite as narrow as you make it out to be. Just take a look at games played at a professional level. Starcraft 2, a game with notoriously strong emphasis on design and continuous rebalance efforts, doesn't strive for its units to be 1:1 against their counterparts. Instead, every single unit has its very own set of costs, strengths and weaknesses, to the point some units are almost anecdotal in their use while other units are staples you will bring out for every match.

Hasten being somewhat close to a "staple" power in CoH doesn't make it a problem in itself. There has to be functional, negative consequences of that popularity to argue a change needs to happen.
 

Edited September 27, 2019 by nihilii

[macskull]

6 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It also reduces the recharge rate for everyone who -doesn't- take Hasten, obviously, so an HP increase for NPCs is there to help offset the increase in damage dealing capabilities.

Three things here:

 

1. Basically, the proposed change has no overall effect on anyone except people that didn't take Hasten EXCEPT

 

2. Enemies are now up to 30% harder to kill so really you're nerfing everyone EXCEPT

 

3. Now you're freeing up a power pick and power pool which can directly lead to the power creep you're trying to avoid, and you're going to shoehorn people into taking power picks (Assault, probably) to make up for that 30% survivability nerf.

 

This is just a bad idea all around.

 

EDIT: Mods, can we just lock this thread already? The fact that it's exploded up to 22 pages in only a few days should be enough to show that it's not something players want.

Edited September 27, 2019 by macskull

[AerialAssault]

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

 

It also reduces the recharge rate for everyone who -doesn't- take Hasten, obviously, so an HP increase for NPCs is there to help offset the increase in damage dealing capabilities.

 

Give Reichsman even more HP??? I don't want to have to book holidays in just to do a Barracuda SF.

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, nihilii said:

This is incorrect both on a theoretical level and on a practical level.

Something being more powerful than its contemporaries can result in negative consequences given specific circumstances. But something being more powerful than its contemporaries does not necessarily result in negative consequence in all circumstances.

In the context of CoH, if the "something" is an AT or a powerset, it might trivialize other ATs and powersets. But if the "something" is one power pool pick... You can't exactly trivialize other choices and players, because you're left with many other choices. In the case of Hasten it actually opens the window for *more* choices through builds planning for specific goals (attack chains, power uptimes).

Game design isn't quite as narrow as you make it out to be. Just take a look at games played at a professional level. Starcraft 2, a game with notoriously strong emphasis on design and continuous rebalance efforts, doesn't strive for its units to be 1:1 against their counterparts. Instead, every single unit has its very own set of costs, strengths and weaknesses, to the point some units are almost anecdoctal in their use while other units are staples you will bring out for every match.

Hasten being somewhat close to a "staple" power in CoH doesn't make it a problem in itself. There has to be functional, negative consequences of that popularity to argue a change needs to happen.
 

There's a range, Nihili. Balance in any game cannot be 1 to 1 without all the abilities being identical or having an identical impact. It's true. Which is why -no one- tries to balance things flawlessly. Flawless balance would be dull.

 

But balance in games is still something developers strive for. There's a reason there's a formula for end cost-recharge-damage in the CoH engine. There's a reason PvP kept getting balance waves that rippled across it (At least early on before everyone kinda gave up!)

 

Because there's a difference between "Absolute Balance" and "Ballpark Balance" A balance where stuff is within 10-15% of equal one way or the other. This power isn't great, but that one's good, and this one's pretty cool. 

 

The latter is what you want in a game. So that even though a given member of the team might not be able to knock it out of the park, everyone can take the field.

 

Hasten? Hasten hits it out of the park every time it gets to bat in the Minor Leagues. You don't keep Hasten in the Minors. You put Hasten into the Major Leagues where he has some competition and it makes the game more fun.

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

Three things here:

 

1. Basically, the proposed change has no overall effect on anyone except people that didn't take Hasten EXCEPT

 

2. Enemies are now up to 30% harder to kill so really you're nerfing everyone EXCEPT

 

3. Now you're freeing up a power pick and power pool which can directly lead to the power creep you're trying to avoid, and you're going to shoehorn people into taking power picks (Assault, probably) to make up for that 30% survivability nerf.

 

This is just a bad idea all around.

 

EDIT: Mods, can we just lock this thread already? The fact that it's exploded up to 22 pages in only a few days should be enough to show that it's not something players want.

Enemies take up to 30% more damage before dropping 'cause you hit them 14% (baseline) more quickly with all of your attacks. The more attacks you have to cycle, the more hits you get within the same 15-20 second window before the critter dies. Without the HP Bonus you'd just kill everything faster. It's there to reduce the power creep of handing everyone 14% faster attacks.

 

The extra power could cause creep. Particularly if people take Assault. But it also has an Endurance cost to it that constantly ticks away and the enemies are slightly tougher which could help to offset the extra 10% damage slightly... 

 

You get the idea.

7 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

 

Give Reichsman even more HP??? I don't want to have to book holidays in just to do a Barracuda SF.

And hit him faster. Why do people keep separating the components of the suggestion without trying to understand how they work together?

[TheAdjustor]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

EDIT: Mods, can we just lock this thread already? The fact that it's exploded up to 22 pages in only a few days should be enough to show that it's not something players want.

 

Not to nerf herd but

 

 

These threads never work out well. They were especially bad on live from Castle cultivating a following on the forums. I can't see how they will serve a purpose here.  The people that propose them are only rarely willing to do the hard work needed to make a reasoned case, and no matter what you get acrimony in the community.

 

And yeah, this thread should be all the case you need that Nerf Herding isn't a good idea.

[ShardWarrior]

21 minutes ago, Moka said:

I would be for removing hasten if we got an inherent perma 70% recharge boost. Or again, if it were inherent. With the amount of hoops you have to jump through to even make hasten "worth it", for perma hasten, is a chore on its own.

This is also another rather large assumption being made in that the reason most people are taking hasten is they are after "perma" everything, not just the ease of taking 1 power vs figuring out how to fiddle with the IO system to gain the most recharge possible. 

[Demon Shell]

6 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Rebalance literally the entire game, touching every single Enemy, Villain Group, Build, Powerset, ability- and by extension rebalancing how the game works for every single player past/present/future, while simultaneously hurting people that minimally slot for recharge on some powers (depending on a high global recharge to offset the difference) and damning proc builds that specifically require high global recharge on long cooldown powers for maximum effect.