Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[Captain Powerhouse]

9 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

That's called power creep. Brutes don't need a buff.

 

It's just a bonus to fury gain when teamed, and should not be noticeable by a brute that is main tank. The goal is a secondary brute, or brute that is not main tank, does not underperform. It also makes slow attacks generate a bit more fury.

 

PLEASE, dont just smile and node when that patch hit. Test it and report any concerns.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Moka]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Sure seems to be.  

 

In that case we can get rid of all ATs except brutes, and remove 2/3rds of the power sets.

If it's a case of farming...This is unfair! Controllers don't do enough damage! Why won't most of my blasters survive as well as a brute in a firefarm? This is outrageous!

[Auroxis]

Just now, Moka said:

When you have a bunch of people upset that the main tanking class in the game is going to be able to herd better than it did before, apparently so. 

That's not the case at all, I suggest you re-read this thread because I'm done repeating myself for Captain Powerhouse's sake.

[Haijinx]

Nobody is going to go back to herding

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I meant the introduction of procs in i13. When they became more consistent, a lot more should had been considered, especially cross-at balance.

 

On some of your other points: there is also issues with how they interact with epic pool attacks that are meant to have 2x recharge rate as a penalty, not as a bonus for PPM (this later is more of a PvP issue.)

 

Edit: as to what will be looked at there, I don’t know yet. It’s a thing of concern that is on a huge bucket list of things that need looking at.

?????

[Moka]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Nobody is going to go back to herding

Exactly. I don't understand why people are upset. 

[Auroxis]

Just now, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

It's just a bonus to fury gain when teamed, and should not be noticeable by a brute that is main tank. The goal is a secondary brute, or brute that is not main tank, does not underperform.

I wasn't talking about that specific change (obviously I can't without knowing the numbers), just at the prospect of Brutes being buffed being an acceptable answer to tankers being released as overtuned when we can deal with it at this stage (with changes I previously suggested).

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Starforge said:

I mean, I haven't read most of the recent pages but I don't think it's taking a shot in the dark to guess that a lot of people are upset another AT is getting brought up which makes their special snowflake AT lesser in their eyes because of it. So yeah, might as well just let it happen and see how it actually performs in a live setting.

Or heres a novel idea, run tests on beta and see how the slight nerf to brutes doesnt matter even in a farm setting, but how the tank buffs make them better in line with brutes.

 

Its a win win for the tank style of play.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Moka said:

Exactly. I don't understand why people are upset. 

Their 1b inf farm toons that have earned them 5b influence will be less good than possible tanker farm toons.

[Starforge]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Their 1b inf farm toons that have earned them 5b influence will be less good than possible tanker farm toons.

The horror.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Or heres a novel idea, run tests on beta and see how the slight nerf to brutes doesnt matter even in a farm setting, but how the tank buffs make them better in line with brutes.

 

Its a win win for the tank style of play.

Improved fury generation for the 2nd, 3rd etc brute in the team is a great trade off for the cap change.

 

Since that is a definite problem

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Their 1b inf farm toons that have earned them 5b influence will be less good than possible tanker farm toons.

Not Even that, my rad fire brute didnt lose any time as a result of the change.

[Auroxis]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Their 1b inf farm toons that have earned them 5b influence will be less good than possible tanker farm toons.

Radiation Melee+Fiery Aura Brute vs. Tanker farm tests are still up for grabs by the way. I got burned out on my last set of tests.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Not Even that, my rad fire brute didnt lose any time as a result of the change.

Yeah its not so much their farm brute loses, its that a tanker farm toon might be moar better now.

[Solarverse]

What I am seeing in this thread are players who prefer Brutes, want to remain King of Tanking, while maintaining cap defense, resistance and cap damage. They don't want Tanks being on par with Brutes because they would be the same.

 

Players who prefer Tanks, want Tanks to once again be the go to AT for Tanking, and they feel Tanks need a higher Damage output to do so.

 

The real problem is the fact that Tanks should be the dominant aggro holder in game. They were never meant to be DPS. They were meant to survive an onslaught of damage and maintain control of aggro. Ever since the Devs nerfed the aggro limit, it put Tanks in a bad spot with teams. Since the Brute can hold the same aggro as a Tank, and be just as survivable, plus doing more Damage, the Brute is now the go to AT for Tanking. Tanks are now obsolete and players like myself play them out of nostalgia more than anything else.

 

The answer is not to buff the Tank's Damage. The answer is to increase the Tank's base resist and defense and cap them at 5% higher base, while also increasing their cap resist by 5%. So instead of 90% resist, they can obtain 95% resistance, and since they have a 5% higher base resist and defense, they are more survivable even in low levels.

 

Change their taunt to taunt the cap aggro limit and give it a larger AoE. Increase the mag of the taunt, making it impossible for a Brute to take aggro from the Tank.

 

The only AT who should be able to peel the aggro from a Tank is another Tank. Tanks need to be what they are. We do not need to turn them in to a killing machine, they simply need to be very hard to kill and impossible to pull aggro off of.

 

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Auroxis said:

Radiation Melee+Fiery Aura Brute vs. Tanker farm tests are still up for grabs by the way. I got burned out on my last set of tests.

I care like less than nothing about farm balance.

 

I don't advocate eliminating farm missions or anything.   But farming is not something that should be considered.

 

Team dynamics should be.

[Moka]

4 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

The answer is not to buff the Tank's Damage. The answer is to increase the Tank's base resist and defense and cap them at 5% higher base, while also increasing their cap resist by 5%. So instead of 90% resist, they can obtain 95% resistance, and since they have a 5% higher base resist and defense, they are more survivable even in low levels.

 

 

 

 

I think the damage buff to tankers is entirely necessary. They should have always had the same damage modifier as a brute. The keyword here is modifier. They will not have the same damage potential, but there was no reason a tanker's damage modifier should be as low as it is on the live game. Giving them higher defense/resistance values won't fix their current problems in the regular game, because a brute will still be equally "good enough" at a certain survival rate to invalidate a tanker in the current scheme of things.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Moka

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Yeah its not so much their farm brute loses, its that a tanker farm toon might be moar better now.

I'll give that a big who cares. lol. I'm sticking with what I have and hitting the moar power to them button.

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

What I am seeing in this thread are players who prefer Brutes, want to remain King of Tanking, while maintaining cap defense, resistance and cap damage. They don't want Tanks being on par with Brutes because they would be the same.

 

Players who prefer Tanks, want Tanks to once again be the go to AT for Tanking, and they feel Tanks need a higher Damage output to do so.

 

The real problem is the fact that Tanks should be the dominant aggro holder in game. They were never meant to be DPS. They were meant to survive an onslaught of damage and maintain control of aggro. Ever since the Devs nerfed the aggro limit, it put Tanks in a bad spot with teams. Since the Brute can hold the same aggro as a Tank, and be just as survivable, plus doing more Damage, the Brute is now the go to AT for Tanking. Tanks are now obsolete and players like myself play them out of nostalgia more than anything else.

 

The answer is not to buff the Tank's Damage. The answer is to increase the Tank's base resist and defense and cap them at 5% higher base, while also increasing their cap resist by 5%. So instead of 90% resist, they can obtain 95% resistance, and since they have a 5% higher base resist and defense, they are more survivable even in low levels.

 

Change their taunt to taunt the cap aggro limit and give it a larger AoE. Increase the mag of the taunt, making it impossible for a Brute to take aggro from the Tank.

 

The only AT who should be able to peel the aggro from a Tank is another Tank. Tanks need to be what they are. We do not need to turn them in to a killing machine, they simply need to be very hard to kill and impossible to pull aggro off of.

 

 

 

 

There is only so much they can do about aggro.

 

High end teams don't need as much aggro control due to everyone being less squishy.

 

Tanks still need to contribute in the high end game.

 

Low end they don't as have many good attacks as brutes anyway, so that balances itself.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Haijinx

[DarknessEternal]

14 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

It's just a bonus to fury gain when teamed, and should not be noticeable by a brute that is main tank. The goal is a secondary brute, or brute that is not main tank, does not underperform. It also makes slow attacks generate a bit more fury.

 

PLEASE, dont just smile and node when that patch hit. Test it and report any concerns.

This will have absolutely no impact on the current problem of Tanks doing more damage with AoE attacks.  They will still more damage with AoE attacks no matter how much Fury a Brute has.

 

And for those of you who just don't understand why increasing the target cap is a problem, Tanks will now clear maps faster than BLASTERS.  Remember how bringing up Blaster damage is what caused the Brute nerf in the first place?  Let's hope it does again with target caps.

 

Everything else about the Tank change is fine.  Target cap increase is a multiplicative effect that is not properly being accounted for in the current state of this change.

[DarknessEternal]

11 minutes ago, Moka said:

 

 

I think the damage buff to tankers is entirely necessary. They should have always had the same damage modifier as a brute. The keyword here is modifier. They will not have the same damage potential, but there was no reason a tanker's damage modifier should be as low as it is on the live game.

I agree the damage buff is necessary.  My contention is with the target cap.  When one AT is hitting 16 guys and every other AT is hitting 10, you're going to have a problem.  The current numbers are just not acceptable.

Edited November 7, 2019 by DarknessEternal

[macskull]

14 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Radiation Melee+Fiery Aura Brute vs. Tanker farm tests are still up for grabs by the way. I got burned out on my last set of tests.

All my testing given identical builds has shown that there is very little difference and switching to the Tanker didn't really speed me up.

[Auroxis]

Just now, DarknessEternal said:

I agree the damage buff is necessary.  My contention is with the target cap.  When one AT is hitting 16 guys and every other AT is hitting 10, you're going to have a problem.

The damage buff isn't necessary when you can just bring back Bruising and tune the damage down. Hitting 16 instead of 10 is a lot less of an issue then since bruising doesn't provide a benefit in AoE.

[Auroxis]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

All my testing given identical builds has shown that there is very little difference and switching to the Tanker didn't really speed me up.

With these powersets specifically? Did you try red insp farm runs?

Edited November 7, 2019 by Auroxis

[macskull]

1 minute ago, DarknessEternal said:

I agree the damage buff is necessary.  My contention is with the target cap.  When one AT is hitting 16 guys and every other AT is hitting 10, you're going to have a problem.  The current numbers are just not acceptable.

Are you talking in a farm situation here, or in normal content? In a farm situation the difference between a Tanker and Brute is negligible even at target saturation. In regular content you're not going to be at target saturation during most situations anyways. All the higher target cap is doing is helping the Tanker maintain aggro better.