Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[KelvinKole]

22 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Nope, I’ve never seen ANY team I’ve been expect a Brute to take taunt. Usually the teams I’m on get a Tank to do that. Nothing in these changes will change that. And I am NOT suggesting a Brutes lose anything. It’s not necessary. At all.

What you're talking about is effectively a stereotype. A lot of people didn't think my daughter should play tackle football, but she's better than most of the boys. 

 

What people think a thing should do is not a measure of what it actually can do. 

[golstat2003]

39 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

What you're talking about is effectively a stereotype. A lot of people didn't think my daughter should play tackle football, but she's better than most of the boys. 

 

What people think a thing should do is not a measure of what it actually can do. 

I did not say Brutes couldn’t Tank. What I said was that most teams cared more if a Tank didn’t take taunt than if a Brute didn’t. And most teams looking for aggro control looked for a Tank most of the time.

 

I see nothing wrong with giving Tanks some more damage as well as the other changes on test. Most teams just won’t care which archetype does more damage.

Edited December 3, 2019 by golstat2003

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, KelvinKole said:

Although I agree it would be more effective to just remove taunt and punchvoke from brutes so they actually cannot be the team protector.

So we can have the “Brute/Scrapper Conundrum” thread in a few months? That should be quite entertaining to read.

[Haijinx]

Id argue with this patch its actually ..

 

Brutes will so more damage than tanks most of the time.  (Tanks will do about 90% Brute damage)

 

Tanks will sometimes do more damage than Brutes basically when herding / farming because of their AOE caps.

 

Tanks will find it easier to hit with their AOEs.

 

But brutes will still be the higher damage of the pair, and it will be noticable.  Assuming they know how to keep their fury up. 

 

Super Strength though will be an outlier, where high end double raging tanks will do brute level damage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

What you're talking about is effectively a stereotype. A lot of people didn't think my daughter should play tackle football, but she's better than most of the boys.

While I hate to do this, I have no choice but to do so. You might want to use a different example.
 

Yes, your daughter can physically keep up with the boys in the pre-SO game. I hope that you understand that this is 99.9% unlikely to ever be the case once she hits SO+ range.

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Id argue with this patch its actually ..

 

Brutes will so more damage than tanks most of the time.  (Tanks will do about 90% Brute damage)

 

Tanks will sometimes do more damage than Brutes basically when herding / farming because of their AOE caps.

 

Tanks will find it easier to hit with their AOEs.

 

But brutes will still be the higher damage of the pair, and it will be noticable.  Assuming they know how to keep their fury up. 

 

Super Strength though will be an outlier, where high end double raging tanks will do brute level damage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone always brings up the damage aspect of these changes and barely looks at the rest of it. In this period of downtime between patches, perhaps we can convince the Captain to give us a current list of the Tanker changes for the newcomers.

[Haijinx]

29 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Everyone always brings up the damage aspect of these changes and barely looks at the rest of it. In this period of downtime between patches, perhaps we can convince the Captain to give us a current list of the Tanker changes for the newcomers.

I don't see them actually looking at the damage in most cases.  I see them arguing against the concept of Tanker damage.  (with some notable exceptions)  

 

Its hard to discuss "what kind of damage should a Tanker do compared to Brutes?" ...  

When basically the answer from this camp is generally Tankers should do "Little" And Brutes should do "LOTS!"  And pretend Scrappers and Stalkers do not exist. 

 

But yes a current summary of the proposal would be cool.   

[Purrfekshawn]

14 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

That's self enforced. Both have access to Taunt and can hold aggro equally well. It's simply your choice not to take the power. Although I agree it would be more effective to just remove taunt and punchvoke from brutes so they actually cannot be the team protector.

Oh no, then brute will be nothing but villainside scrapper 😰 Heavens forbid that!

 

Current problem is that Brutes currently deal damage approximately 3x higher than Tankers, while having Tankers defensive capabilities are just +33% more effective. It's not comparable with defenders/corruptors damage and support difference. This low Tankers damage often means they cannot solo some content being unable to outDPS Archvillain regen, even with envenomed daggers, and they slug through soloing rest of content.

 

Looking forward for these changes to fix this problem. Although l think Tanker damage may be boosted not that strongly, not beyond any bounds (so they outweigh Brutes), and they might retain Bruise at their T1 secondary still. Brutes might deal about +33% more damage to single target, or even +50% at full fury, while on AoE their damage might remain from +25% more to the same at Tankers (at max targets) to bring balance lMO.

[Myrmidon]

46 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Current problem is that Brutes currently deal damage approximately 3x higher than Tankers, while having Tankers defensive capabilities are just +33% more effective. It's not comparable with defenders/corruptors damage and support difference. This low Tankers damage often means they cannot solo some content being unable to outDPS Archvillain regen, even with envenomed daggers, and they slug through soloing rest of content.

Just to be clear, we really shouldn’t be using soloing AVs as a damage benchmark for Tankers (or any other AT, for that matter).

[MIG]

Thought this horse was dead already...

 

Anyway, damage is the endgame metric for every AT in the post-50 content world.  There isn’t a player I know who doesn’t appreciate more baseline damage or creative ways (slotting, combos, power selections, etc.) to increase damage output.  Before a Defender or Controller tells me they hate damage, there will always be outliers...
 

With that said, the game has matured with 25+ releases, creating an opportunity (or necessity) to address certain ATs.  The tank is serviceable, but with IOs and incarnates, its survivability is no longer a discernible asset, while offensively it is underwhelming.

 

I support all the changes, but Increased damage is critical.  

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Oh no, then brute will be nothing but villainside scrapper 😰 Heavens forbid that!

 

Current problem is that Brutes currently deal damage approximately 3x higher than Tankers, while having Tankers defensive capabilities are just +33% more effective. It's not comparable with defenders/corruptors damage and support difference. This low Tankers damage often means they cannot solo some content being unable to outDPS Archvillain regen, even with envenomed daggers, and they slug through soloing rest of content.

 

Looking forward for these changes to fix this problem. Although l think Tanker damage may be boosted not that strongly, not beyond any bounds (so they outweigh Brutes), and they might retain Bruise at their T1 secondary still. Brutes might deal about +33% more damage to single target, or even +50% at full fury, while on AoE their damage might remain from +25% more to the same at Tankers (at max targets) to bring balance lMO.

You are exaggerating the current situation.  I have a tanks-I have brutes and the gap isn't 3x between them.

 

And my tanks have 0 issues soloing, and no out dps ing an AV regen on any AT is a circus trick that's outside what the game was intended to do.

 

Not saying it should go away either, I think it's cool, but should never be used as a metric for comparisons.

[KelvinKole]

Things seem to be deteriorating and the changes are probably too far along to push anything back now, but I'll leave it at this:

 

In the current state, Tanks have an identity crisis that matured over time due to several major changes to the game (Brutes being playable blue side, IO system, Incarnates, etc.). They are an aggro sponge in a game that 1) Doesn't always need one and 2) Has another Archetype, Brutes, that can do it just as well and with higher damage output.  Without undoing the complicated tapestry that lead to this point, the easiest thing to do was just buff their damage. It makes them serviceable and at least perform at a similar level to Brutes, which partially solves number 2 above and satisfies most people. That's probably good enough, but it doesn't provide an identity; They are still an aggro sponge in a game that doesn't always need one and still has another archetype that can do it just as well. I would have preferred to see changes that actually gave Tanks a purpose again. I am not malcontent with the damage increase, I just don't agree that it was the right direction to take. 

[Moka]

23 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

Things seem to be deteriorating and the changes are probably too far along to push anything back now, but I'll leave it at this:

 

In the current state, Tanks have an identity crisis that matured over time due to several major changes to the game (Brutes being playable blue side, IO system, Incarnates, etc.). They are an aggro sponge in a game that 1) Doesn't always need one and 2) Has another Archetype, Brutes, that can do it just as well and with higher damage output.  Without undoing the complicated tapestry that lead to this point, the easiest thing to do was just buff their damage. It makes them serviceable and at least perform at a similar level to Brutes, which partially solves number 2 above and satisfies most people. That's probably good enough, but it doesn't provide an identity; They are still an aggro sponge in a game that doesn't always need one and still has another archetype that can do it just as well. I would have preferred to see changes that actually gave Tanks a purpose again. I am not malcontent with the damage increase, I just don't agree that it was the right direction to take. 

Tankers were also given higher buff numbers to the team, to be fair. They give defender levels through the leadership pool.

[Auroxis]

10 minutes ago, Moka said:

Tankers were also given higher buff numbers to the team, to be fair. They give defender levels through the leadership pool.

Those were nerfed to controller levels. And there's the removal of Bruising, so it's still a net loss in support.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Next patch will hit soon-ish. Once it does, a new focused feedback thread will be posted. Locking this one for the time being.