What goes well with Thugs?

[Khales]

Pretty much what title says. Looking for recommendations on which Secondary to take, and why.

[Sanguinesun]

Dark was what I ran before shut down with thugs.  The debuffs they profide in conjunction with the other things it did was nice. Time also so far(got a 31 thus far) does well. Kin does nice too and it of course is a team pleaser for grouping.

 

Its going to depend on how up close or how on the periphery your playstyle will be too of course. 

[Tigress]

Theoretically speaking: Force Fields, Darkness and Ice, as they add to the already substantial defense buffs from the Enforcers (same as with Robots by the way) Poison worked remarkably well for me too, though this tends to shine only at the higher levels and can be rather painful in the beginning. Kinetics is always useful, but would probably be more effective on melee heavy henchmen such as Animals, Ninja and Undead because of how the heal works.

 

If you solo a lot, you *might* get a lot of mileage out of Storm as well (heavily depending upon your playstyle), keeping the enemies debuffed and blown into a corner, however, be prepared to change that tactic significantly when fighting in a team as they usually don't take lightly upon knockback-heavy stormies.

[Erydanus]

Pretty sure I had a Thugs/Dark MM, I remember it was a vampire and his thralls. It worked super well.

[Boerewors]

Dark is widely considered the best to use for thugs since you bolster survivability by stacking -to hit debuff with your thug defences. Also keeping the mobs tucked nicely in a tar patch while they burn from a molotov cocktail, is satisfying.

[Frakk]

Time is also a good choice. 

[Rudest]

I prefer Poison because of the Bruiser + Noxious Gas combo.

[Erydanus]

I prefer Poison because of the Bruiser + Noxious Gas combo.

So basically Thugs/Axe Body Spray.

[OmegaX123]

Thematically, which I can speak to since I come from Virtue back on live and Everlasting here, any sec with guns or blades, or any sec that would in an RP way allow you to enthrall/enslave/ensnare/control them (can't recall if these are MM sec options, but something like Psychic, the aforementioned Dark, etc).

Playstyle-wise, I don't really know, because I a)tend to play with other MM pets like ninja or robots, and b)tend to build to concept rather than to playstyle.

[Dixa]

Pretty much what title says. Looking for recommendations on which Secondary to take, and why.

 

what is your goal, and how will you play?

 

the usual sheep will say poison or dark and they are pretty off base if your goal is to solo av's and gm's or to make your pets as unkillable as possible.

 

dark has it's uses and is excellent in teams, however the heal requires your pets to all be in melee range of the target. this is not always ideal. properly playing thugs to it's maximum potential means at least three keybinds dedicated to goto for each tier to keep the ranged guys ranged and the bruiser in melee. stacking tar patch is noticeable increase damage for your thugs, but this is not the only source and many mobs will run out of it especially av's and gm's that can't be rooted. thugs/dark does work, but it's far from optimal

 

same deal with thugs/poison. while is has good debuffs (not the best, good) you will be replacing pets often and you need a bit of recharge to get the anchor ability perma.

 

the two ideal, best secondaries are traps and time. here is why:

 

with traps and time you can softcap your pets defensively. two defensive io's in enforcers gives your pets 20% def to all. ffg and farsight give another 15%. two slot gangwar and put edict of the master and call to arms +5% def auras and voila - your pets are pve softcapped. with powerboost you only need one of those +def auras. that's before you add in maneuvers. this is actually superior to bots, as the bots bubbles are not up 100% of the time and the lt pets  only get one bubble each.

 

with traps you can:

lock runners in place, even av's. darkest night an av or gm? they run off. have fun!

soft control in caltrops but don't bother slotting damage proc io's anymore. they don't work like they did on live with the new ppm mechanic.

with enough recharge a pretty hefty pbaoe stacking +regen aura, but useless until later levels

stacking -20% def -20% resist that is effectively perma

the only actual total shutdown of all regen in the game. poison trap is only a -1000% regen for masterminds traps. on other at's it doesn't have -regen.

poison trap also is an occasional hard and soft control, with an actual hold proc for minions and lt's and a barfing animation forced on av's and even gm's.

mezz protection. malta can stun you for 40 seconds at a time. the right arachnos pack you will be perma held/slept/stunned if you aren't keeping break frees handy for EACH PACK

 

some of the hardest content to do while you level is villain side even when you keep them to EB level. one of the arachnid story arcs has you fight biff. all arachnids have massive regen. massive. biff is even worse. my necro/dark couldn't break it because howling twilight and twilights' grasp even stacked was not enough -regen. after 30 minutes i pretty much just alt+f4. but thugs/traps? it was a 4 minute fight and nobody took a hit.

 

When a power says -50% regen, it's actually only a 5% reduction in the targets regen rate. There is no power like mm poison trap. it is actually quite overpowered in the right hands and with enough recharge is up for every pack. if you use super speed or some stealth you can jump into a pack and drop it and negate the alpha entirely, even from the boss.

 

time ticks nearly all of the same boxes above. it does not have mezz protection. it does not have as much -regen (spamming time crawl and the hold gets you -300%, on par with dark but also a HOLD) and would have the same issues with +2 eb biff as a thugs/dark would. what it does have is a pbaoe heal that in total heals as much as twilights grasp. it has farsight which when powerboosted is +20% def all to you and your team and pets which actually allows YOU to softcap pve smash/lethal or even positional with some slotting choices. it has a slow patch like caltrops that does no damage but can hold minions and lt's randomly. chrono shift can help with end to a degree but does not substitute slotting end in your pets and it has a pbaoe -tohit aura you run that really helps (until you get mezzed).

 

when choosing between the above it comes down to this - traps is better solo, but poor on a team. it works best if you have team teleport to move everyone around and keep them in the ffg and can get quite spammy, but i killed a +2 av at level 29 as thugs/traps and only had to replace the arsonist a couple times because poison trap shuts down all regen, period. traps is not fun in a team.

 

time is great solo because your pets don't need to be within a bubble to be softcapped but the lack of mezz protection has killed me and them a lot. it is however superior for teaming due to farsight, chrono shift, your hold, your slow patch. time also has -20% def and -20% resist aoe but will take some effort to make perma and unlike acid mortar which you can have two of and they stack as far as i can tell slowed response does not stack on itself.

 

bots/time can actually softcap you the player to incarnate level defense, but bots does not do anywhere near the damage of thugs and no, i never count gang war.

[WumpusRat]

Pretty sure I had a Thugs/Dark MM, I remember it was a vampire and his thralls. It worked super well.

 

I had a thug/dark as well, a little imp named Tiny Whispers that was the "bad conscience" of a bunch of criminals. :)

[tatmia]

dark has it's uses and is excellent in teams, however the heal requires your pets to all be in melee range of the target.

 

Twighlight grasp is not enemy based (melee) but rather player based.  I heals anything within 20 ft of you. 

 

[Nexros]

Honestly, with most MM combos there really isn't a bad option. I can't think of a combo that couldn't be spec'd in way that is complimentary. It's just the nature of pet/support.

I like to think of it this way:

For pets, pick melee (ninjas, animals,...), ranged (bots, mercs...), or hybrid (zombie, thugs....).

For your secondary, pick buffs (thermal, ice,...) or debuffs (poison, dark...). All support sets will have some of both, but they're generally tailored to one or the other. I find the debuff supports tend to be a tad more offensive feeling, but require a lot more accuracy checks. It's nice that you don't need accuracy to effectively buff your team!

From there, just go with a theme you like and you'll do great--this is the most important because you won't play a character you don't enjoy.

Good luck!

[Kohrrl]

I am having a ball with Thugs / Storm.

 

I don't use Hurricane and I only use Gale when I need to but I have a nice single target heal and I get two decent CC powers in Freezing Rain and Thunderclap. Doesn't matter if I'm in a group or solo, draw the packs in, freezing rain. When that wears off, Thunderclap. By the time the packs dead, Freezing Rain has recycled and is ready to use again. Really helps mitigate damage.

 

As for Gale, I'm using that when I need to. For both solo and grouping. Too much damage coming in to keep up on heals, gale everything back, gives FR and TC time to recharge and to heal, or retreat and regroup.

 

Snow Storm is great when fighting purple bosses or LT's, it slows everything way down. Got a runner, pop ST on em. They are going no where fast!

 

Not a fan of Hurricane. I tried it solo a few times, didn't like it. Might try it again just to play with it. Not a huge fan.

 

Looking forward to lightning storm and Tornado when the time comes.

[Redlynne]

Gale piles into a corner and then use Herdicane to keep them tohit debuffed and pinned where they can't escape.

[Narninian5]

Rather than recommend a specific set; I'll advise against one: Forcefields.

 

It has +Defense which stacks well with the Manuevers that Enforcers provide meaning you can "Softcap" defense on your thugs pretty easily, HOWEVER that is pretty much all the set does and its extremely passive (meaning in combat you are not using your abilities from your secondary often). In combat as a Mastermind you are also not using skills from your PRIMARY often, leaving you not taking advantage of your endurance bar/casting time.

 

You know who can also get high defense? Cold and Time.  Cold does this pretty much the same way as Forcefields: By giving out shields early with buffs, which is fairly passive however, they ALSO get some pretty sweet debuffs. -RES is and incredibly helpful way to boost damage and -Regen helps with AVs.

 

Time also gives good defense (and recharge, but thats mostly helpful for you rather than your pets) -- and debuffs but is more top heavy and the defense wont have 100% uptime until you start getting expensive iO sets, so Cold is more like (IMO) an upgraded version of Forcefields. Time has upside, its just a late bloomer.

 

 

[Apparition]

Yeah.  As someone who had five level 50 Force Field characters before sunset (Defenders and Masterminds), Force Field is overshadowed these days by Cold Domination, Sonic Resonance, and Time Manipulation.

[Elthenar]

Force field did have one offensive gimmick. Using the repel field to herd things into a corner and letting the assault bot burn them down. Otherwise, yeah...force fields has been drastically overshadowed.

[Klaleara]

I prefer Poison because of the Bruiser + Noxious Gas combo.

 

This.  Unsure if people just don't try Poison, but out of my 4 Masterminds that hit 40+ (Thugs, and Robotics being maxed), Thugs and Poison were by faaaaaaar the most powerful.  It was outrageous actually.  ESPECIALLY in PVP.  Invincible (Not literal invincible...well, yes, but others too) dropped to their knees to my Thugs/Poison.  In PVE, they were just as effective.

 

Noxious Gas was just hilariously strong, and all the other abilities were great too.

[DoctorGoat]

What goes well with Thugs? You want the power set Sex/Drugs/Rock

[Dixa]

this depends on your goal. I am partial to nature or time if you are creating a grouping mm.

 

for soloing the really really tough stuff it's time if you don't mind being mezzed a lot, traps if you don't like being mezzed at all, but you will have to replace pets more often due to no heal unless you go medicine pool (which I usually do for a thugs/traps).

 

some will say poison, but poison doesn't provide anywhere near the amount of defensive capability to your pets as the above two do, while the above two provide the same capability poison does to varying degrees. poison is more of a pvp set.

[_NOPE_]

What goes well with thugs?

 

B****es and H**s man, B****es and H**s.

[Judasace]

Played Thugs/Poison during release and never had any of the problems you describe. Tore through AVs like butter.

 

Also, is it really necessary to call people "sheep" for liking and being good at a certain combination that you don't/aren't? One of the great things about CoX was always the community, and though I know the quality of discourse on the internet in general has deteriorated, I still think a little respect goes a long way.

 

 

Pretty much what title says. Looking for recommendations on which Secondary to take, and why.

 

what is your goal, and how will you play?

 

the usual sheep will say poison or dark and they are pretty off base if your goal is to solo av's and gm's or to make your pets as unkillable as possible.

 

dark has it's uses and is excellent in teams, however the heal requires your pets to all be in melee range of the target. this is not always ideal. properly playing thugs to it's maximum potential means at least three keybinds dedicated to goto for each tier to keep the ranged guys ranged and the bruiser in melee. stacking tar patch is noticeable increase damage for your thugs, but this is not the only source and many mobs will run out of it especially av's and gm's that can't be rooted. thugs/dark does work, but it's far from optimal

 

same deal with thugs/poison. while is has good debuffs (not the best, good) you will be replacing pets often and you need a bit of recharge to get the anchor ability perma.

 

the two ideal, best secondaries are traps and time. here is why:

 

with traps and time you can softcap your pets defensively. two defensive io's in enforcers gives your pets 20% def to all. ffg and farsight give another 15%. two slot gangwar and put edict of the master and call to arms +5% def auras and voila - your pets are pve softcapped. with powerboost you only need one of those +def auras. that's before you add in maneuvers. this is actually superior to bots, as the bots bubbles are not up 100% of the time and the lt pets  only get one bubble each.

 

with traps you can:

lock runners in place, even av's. darkest night an av or gm? they run off. have fun!

soft control in caltrops but don't bother slotting damage proc io's anymore. they don't work like they did on live with the new ppm mechanic.

with enough recharge a pretty hefty pbaoe stacking +regen aura, but useless until later levels

stacking -20% def -20% resist that is effectively perma

the only actual total shutdown of all regen in the game. poison trap is only a -1000% regen for masterminds traps. on other at's it doesn't have -regen.

poison trap also is an occasional hard and soft control, with an actual hold proc for minions and lt's and a barfing animation forced on av's and even gm's.

mezz protection. malta can stun you for 40 seconds at a time. the right arachnos pack you will be perma held/slept/stunned if you aren't keeping break frees handy for EACH PACK

 

some of the hardest content to do while you level is villain side even when you keep them to EB level. one of the arachnid story arcs has you fight biff. all arachnids have massive regen. massive. biff is even worse. my necro/dark couldn't break it because howling twilight and twilights' grasp even stacked was not enough -regen. after 30 minutes i pretty much just alt+f4. but thugs/traps? it was a 4 minute fight and nobody took a hit.

 

When a power says -50% regen, it's actually only a 5% reduction in the targets regen rate. There is no power like mm poison trap. it is actually quite overpowered in the right hands and with enough recharge is up for every pack. if you use super speed or some stealth you can jump into a pack and drop it and negate the alpha entirely, even from the boss.

 

time ticks nearly all of the same boxes above. it does not have mezz protection. it does not have as much -regen (spamming time crawl and the hold gets you -300%, on par with dark but also a HOLD) and would have the same issues with +2 eb biff as a thugs/dark would. what it does have is a pbaoe heal that in total heals as much as twilights grasp. it has farsight which when powerboosted is +20% def all to you and your team and pets which actually allows YOU to softcap pve smash/lethal or even positional with some slotting choices. it has a slow patch like caltrops that does no damage but can hold minions and lt's randomly. chrono shift can help with end to a degree but does not substitute slotting end in your pets and it has a pbaoe -tohit aura you run that really helps (until you get mezzed).

 

when choosing between the above it comes down to this - traps is better solo, but poor on a team. it works best if you have team teleport to move everyone around and keep them in the ffg and can get quite spammy, but i killed a +2 av at level 29 as thugs/traps and only had to replace the arsonist a couple times because poison trap shuts down all regen, period. traps is not fun in a team.

 

time is great solo because your pets don't need to be within a bubble to be softcapped but the lack of mezz protection has killed me and them a lot. it is however superior for teaming due to farsight, chrono shift, your hold, your slow patch. time also has -20% def and -20% resist aoe but will take some effort to make perma and unlike acid mortar which you can have two of and they stack as far as i can tell slowed response does not stack on itself.

 

bots/time can actually softcap you the player to incarnate level defense, but bots does not do anywhere near the damage of thugs and no, i never count gang war.

[Dixa]

I had nearly every mm power combo on live, at 50 and nearly all of them io out.

 

And I’m sorry but poison is not on the same level as traps or time for dropping AV. You will frequently lose pets to one shots and spend a lot of time and endurance replacing them or being without while the power recharges. It’s good in a team and pvp but not solo and not on the level of other combinations possible.

 

 

[kelly Rocket]

Time also gives good defense (and recharge, but thats mostly helpful for you rather than your pets) -- and debuffs but is more top heavy and the defense wont have 100% uptime until you start getting expensive iO sets, so Cold is more like (IMO) an upgraded version of Forcefields. Time has upside, its just a late bloomer.

Not so. Farsight hits 100% uptime with just Hasten and Chrono Shift. No IO Sets necessary.