Should all ATs and all powersets support all major playstyles: team, solo, pve, pvp, etc?

[MetaVileTerror]

Yup.  In the interview Matt "Positron" Miller said it:  It was a mistake, in his opinion, to have made Archetypes that can't solo (paraphrased).

[boggo2300]

to be fair to them, when CoH launched the fact people would want to solo on an MMO hadn't occurred to ANYONE,  plus they had the disadvantage of Emmet's never wanting to change his mind

[Solarverse]

Part of what makes this game so enjoyable to players is the fact that it promotes team play all the way from level 2 to 50. Most other MMOs feel like 1 Player games because they do not require teams to run content. If every AT could solo easily, this game would become like all the others and lose its luster.

 

I for one would be completely against making this game more solo friendly than what it already is.

 

P.S. All ATs can solo, just some do it better than others. I see no reason for any change.

[Ankhammon]

My view as a Defenderphile:

 

Yes all ATs can solo, but that's a far cry from Brutes being able to tank and having damage 775% while Defender damage cap is a bit smaller at 400% and does way less damage to start with.

 

My personal opinion is there could be some minor tweaks but most players wouldn't want them and it's not really game changing anymore.

 

For instance, The Defender forums are now being filled with Proc'tastic alternatives to their limited damage caps and even seldom played character combo's can get up to a decent level of damage while solo. So that's not something worth "correcting".

 

The only issue with Defender Solo'ing is from the setup they have to start with Prior to damage and the Devs decision to make almost all damage from your enemy have a status effect by level 40ish. Since a Defender will use toggles that drop or debuffs that are only effective for X seconds, then even a small sleep in a damage power takes on a significant problem for an AT that functions from a buff/debuff perspective primarily. Even if you floor their chances to hit, it's still 5% and it can ruin a good setup.

 

To me the Defender model lacks any real sort of inherent mez protection until Incarnates. So in my wish list would be a gradual scaling up mez prot (or resist) as the defenders health goes into the red. To me, that fits with the defender concept of being able to reach within themselves to protect others even as they approach their critical end. I would add that to Vigilance (maybe reducing the end discount to help even it out).

Solo it removes the "I'm held and out of BFs so remember to get some when you get to the hospital" situation. On a team, it helps... you get it.

NOTE: I don't think this was my idea but I remember this being discussed back in the day and it always seemed appropriate to me.

 

Nowadays, we have Rune of Protection from the Magic line that allows me to have that exact mez protection plus some resistance to help with the situation. .

Plus, Defenders get some mez ability and two primaries get some mez protection altogether.

So even with this weakness, we don't need it.

 

[Leogunner]

33 minutes ago, Ankhammon said:

My view as a Defenderphile:

 

Yes all ATs can solo, but that's a far cry from Brutes being able to tank and having damage 775% while Defender damage cap is a bit smaller at 400% and does way less damage to start with.

Outside of farming maps and significant inspiration use, a Brute isn't going to get to damage cap.  Caps tend to mostly play a role in teams, not solo.

 

As for the topic, I don't see much of a problem.  There are various ways to facilitate solo'ing, from using alternate builds, altering difficulty settings and crafting an IO build to shore up some damage.  Tankers haven't ever really had a problem solo'ing unless they wanted to complain about clear speeds.  Controllers have been the premiere squishy solo'er way back when they could have multiple pets and even without those, they could still get through mobs fairly safely and sometimes very quickly depending on build.  It's always been Blasters and Defenders who had the issue solo'ing, with Blasters being the glass cannon that would fold when mezzed and Defenders who tended to range from slower to barely tolerable.  But things have changed since a lot of QoL additions like difficulty sliders came into the game and IOs were a huge game changer.

 

If there is any issue now, it's teaming, not solo.  Anything end-game is just a clusterfuck of AoE and sets designed to focus on ST are left to the wayside.  Roles are undefined, which isn't a problem, but has been more of an issue than solo is currently.

[DougGraves]

57 minutes ago, Ankhammon said:

For instance, The Defender forums are now being filled with Proc'tastic alternatives to their limited damage caps and even seldom played character combo's can get up to a decent level of damage while solo. So that's not something worth "correcting".

So does that mean defenders do not have a problem levels 1-49 or just that they can solo at level 50 with the right IOs?

[Charistoph]

In answer to the main question, yes, they should support all styles.  However, that doesn't mean they all have to be the best in one area.  Values should vary, but I think what we are seeing is too much swings between powersets, not just ATs.  On the other hand, we don't want them to be too homogenized like Legion+ WoW, either.

[Doc_Scorpion]

18 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

to be fair to them, when CoH launched the fact people would want to solo on an MMO hadn't occurred to ANYONE

0.o  People were stressing soloing when I started playing UO in 2002 - and it wasn't a new debate (for UO) even then.  Heck, people were discussing what classes could solo where as far back as when I played Neverwinter Nights on AOL back in '92 or '93.

[Ankhammon]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

So does that mean defenders do not have a problem levels 1-49 or just that they can solo at level 50 with the right IOs?

With some creative shopping you can start improving as early as level 10.

In order to do this you need to un-dfb your early levels and do archs that give you reward merits that you can swap out for enhancement converters. Then it's just a matter of sell one to get infl stake and then create some to keep and some to sell.

Once char I'm working on recently has about 7 procs and he's level 28. He's a TA/Dark defender who by level 30 (need a couple more slots to put the IO's in) will have kb prot/+6 defense/stealth/a couple damage procs which working with my already decent setup and I can do maybe +2/+4 solo.

As time goes on it will get better and yeah it's 50 that he gets all the stuff he wants IO-wise.

 

Will this guy ever fire farm? no.  But then again, when can a brute neuter 4 different groups at one time while cooking one of them and halfway nuking a second out of existence? That's my  plan anyway.

I like playing with a bit more challenge while leveling and Defenders fit the bill for me. It gives me the feeling that my character is really growing.                                                                                    Honestly the payoff is more than worth it. Just ask a Time/DP or a Poison/Beam Rifle.

 

IMO, Defenders are fine solo with the exception of levels 11 and 21. I really hate those levels. 🙂

 

 

And I only pick on brutes because they can be tweaked to have large personal defense and damage at the same time. It's just the appearance they give with all the fotm/farming/fortune making they can do.

[Ankhammon]

19 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

to be fair to them, when CoH launched the fact people would want to solo on an MMO hadn't occurred to ANYONE,  plus they had the disadvantage of Emmet's never wanting to change his mind

The old ones created a hero for those who wanted to solo. They called him Scrapper. 🙂

[Lost Ninja]

On 10/31/2019 at 5:09 PM, DougGraves said:

Controllers and tankers are painful to play solo.  It looks like they are changing tankers in test to let them solo.   With 4 melee AT's it was Stalkers solo, Tankers team, Brutes and Scrappers team or solo - and brutes and scrappers are fairly redundant already.  If they can all team and solo well will it end up with one best melee AT and 3 also rans?

Since when?

 

Controllers can be a pain to solo, but equally can be some of the most fun you can have on your own... 😉

 

More choice = More things to try. For many CoH's end game is rolling another alt (myself included).

[Lost Ninja]

4 hours ago, DougGraves said:

So does that mean defenders do not have a problem levels 1-49 or just that they can solo at level 50 with the right IOs?

I soloed Frostfire in i5-i6 or so on a Kin/Dark Defender at around level 12 (I know it was before travel powers because I died twice getting to the mission and not in the mission). And I repeated the process on a level 8ish Mind/Rad Controller. Keep in mind this was before IOs so at that level I'd have had TOs on the controller and maybe DOs on the Defender (as even in those days I tended not to slot enhancements before SOs I might not have had them).

 

IOs certainly make soloing (in fact all styles of play) more accessible but they certainly aren't a requirement.

[boggo2300]

11 hours ago, Ankhammon said:

The old ones created a hero for those who wanted to solo. They called him Scrapper. 🙂

I'd say a Blaster solos better than a Scrap, but then I don't like getting my hands dirty :nod:

[boggo2300]

11 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

0.o  People were stressing soloing when I started playing UO in 2002 - and it wasn't a new debate (for UO) even then.  Heck, people were discussing what classes could solo where as far back as when I played Neverwinter Nights on AOL back in '92 or '93.

I mostly solo'd on UO but I played during the PK era and well most people on there you wouldn't want to team with...

[Doc_Scorpion]

47 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

I mostly solo'd on UO but I played during the PK era and well most people on there you wouldn't want to team with...

I played Trammel, and even without PKs people still soled because of UO's spectacularly broken loot distribution methods. (And the griefers who would take advantage of them.)  About the only folks I teamed with were either folks I'd known a while or with fellow members of the Treasure Hunters of Brittania.  (TBH absolutely depended on the reputation of it's members because bad rep meant we wouldn't get clients. Bad apples were dropped in a heartbeat.)