Going forward, can we have more things that mean something?

[Omega-202]

25 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

 

But video games and public parks aren't the same thing. That's like saying, imagine there's a grocery store, and everyone just raids it, but some people still pay. Those rude people who want everything for free are picking the pockets of those who are trying to keep the store running! What rude cards! Except... that's a bad example, and doesn't really apply to how video games as a whole even work, except to just try and make one side of this seem as bad and dumb as possible?

 

Hell, even the topic creator, when given a response that was clearly just belittling in the "Pride and Accomplishment" badge from the choice of words, said "that doesn't sound too bad, having an opt in like that." Like... yeah, more "achievement" category badges or the like would be nice.

 

 

How is a FREE online (pirated) game more like a store than a public park?  You analogy fails utterly from the start because nobody is paying anything here.  There's nothing of value to pay for in this game and its run by donations.  

 

If this was a retail release, sure, but you're openly arguing in bad faith here.

[Indystruck]

My analogy was intentionally bad, that was the point. The public park analogy, also bad.

[Omega-202]

5 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

My analogy was intentionally bad, that was the point. The public park analogy, also bad.

Except mine isnt bad.  Refute it if you want.  Again, you're not actually having a good faith discussion, you're just throwing around crap. 

[Itikar]

8 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

The topic title is about things that can be added to the game to foster that sense of progression. The cat is out of the bag as far as easy access to everything in the game goes, you can't put the stuff that's already unlocked back behind a gateway. These topics are discussion topics, that can ebb and flow, hense me offering up further badges as a solution. Short of developing new costume parts and gating those off, for better or worse, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Then I recommend you read at least some of the pages of the discussion, in order to get a better picture of OP's intentions, as they are not really clear from their first post or from the title. In general you can already find everything on page one, and after page 4 there is little additional input to be found, just in case you do not feel like checking every post.

 

To sum up about badges, they are the most common counterargument provided to OP, and to another like-minded poster, as well as the most efficient comparison of efficient, abundant and varied unlockable content already present in the server. At this point they have failed to provide a well reasoned answer to why some thousands of badges do not satisfy their need for drive to play the game in the same way a single hat or sword skin does. To their credit, they have already settled to restrict only a handful of new costume parts to being locked by completing some content, but still the majority of people in this thread, myself included, has expressed a negative view of this idea for various reasons (mostly concerning being against any form of restriction to creative freedom).

[Indystruck]

10 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Except mine isnt bad.  Refute it if you want.  Again, you're not actually having a good faith discussion, you're just throwing around crap. 

That is precisely the point I was making about your usage, so, that you would say that about mine is perfectly fine by me.

 

1 minute ago, Itikar said:

Then I recommend you read at least some of the pages of the discussion, in order to get a better picture of OP's intentions, as they are not really clear from their first post or from the title. In general you can already find everything on page one, and after page 4 there is little additional input to be found, just in case you do not feel like checking every post.

 

To sum up about badges, they are the most common counterargument provided to OP, and to another like-minded poster, as well as the most efficient comparison of efficient, abundant and varied unlockable content already present in the server. At this point they have failed to provide a well reasoned answer to why some thousands of badges do not satisfy their need for drive to play the game in the same way a single hat or sword skin does. To their credit, they have already settled to restrict only a handful of new costume parts to being locked by completing some content, but still the majority of people in this thread, myself included, has expressed a negative view of this idea for various reasons (mostly concerning being against any form of restriction to creative freedom).

 

Trying to re-lock costumes isn't going to work out. Regardless of whether I'd be for that idea or against. I think some of the old unlocks weren't really that bad (like just "complete an ITF, unlock Roman armor") while some of the defeat badges could be a pain, so I could see people being against those coming back (defeating... I can't recall off the top of my head, I think it was 100 Rularuu Overseers, which requires a long out-of-the-way trip to the Shadow Shard, and alot of waiting since they're a boss enemy and don't spawn in a large number). 

 

The best middle ground would *probably* be implementing new costume parts, and then squirreling some of those away behind a badge or a new TF, but, then that would make some people represented here irritated by that if it was *too* good of a costume piece. 

 

The best happy medium I could think of for a costume unlock option would probably be more of the little items, forget what they're called. The little lapel anchor points for capes? Relatively basic geometry, there's already a decent variance so locking a slightly different design of those behind a badge is no biggie, and it's still something that could be worn to show an accomplishment, but, without being the total costume break that, say, not having Roman armor for a Roman character or not having Vanguard armor for a Vanguard character would be.

[Hero_of_Light]

From my ingame convos today,  seems like this is a vocal minority.

 

Most people were excited at the ideas I mentioned. Hopefully the dev's listen to the players.

 

I don't know why the concept of spending time playing new content to receive new costume/ powers/whatever rewards is such a disgusting idea to you, but thankfully not everyone is that limited.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

51 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

From my ingame convos today,  seems like this is a vocal minority.

 

Most people were excited at the ideas I mentioned. Hopefully the dev's listen to the players.

 

I don't know why the concept of spending time playing new content to receive new costume/ powers/whatever rewards is such a disgusting idea to you, but thankfully not everyone is that limited.

Because this game is no longer fueled by the need to play content to open up personal creativity via time sinks. Because ultimately that is what gating mechanics are first and foremost. Time Sinks. Some content just isnt fun to some folks. Forcing people to have to suffer through content they dont care for to get something to customize their character visually in a game where visual appearance is not tied to gear drops isnt really seen as a good thing especially by RPers. Not every RP concept includes the heroes journey. especially with free name changes Ive been meeting many RPers who use a throw away name while leveling and do not use the character to RP until they have completed the build. Hence why even RPers do make sue of AE power leveling. because the climb to 50 isnt something they view as an accomplishment but rather as something annoying to get out of the way.

 

Here isa  fun analogue. Some people want their first time being intimate with somebody to be filled with romance, and be memorable. Some just want to get it over with so that the whole awkwardness of the first time is done and put behind them, Neither is really wrong, and trying to say their way is the better isnt really going to win you any converts.

 

Badges should be enough for those who feel the need to have something visual to lord over others. Honestly to me all taht is silly, the only thing you should need to show off your success in game is a character, and the skill to play them that sets you apart from the average player/build. A good bio as well. To me a person lacking a good build and bio can literally do nothing to actually impress me or be treated as accomplished in game in a meaningful way.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Bentley Berkeley

[Hero_of_Light]

9 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Because this game is no longer fueled by the need to play content to open up personal creativity via time sinks. Because ultimately that is what gating mechanics are first and foremost. Time Sinks. Some content just isnt fun to some folks. Forcing people to have to suffer through content they dont care for to get something to customize their character visually in a game where visual appearance is not tied to gear drops isnt really seen as a good thing especially by RPers. Not every RP concept includes the heroes journey. especially with free name changes Ive been meeting many RPers who use a throw away name while leveling and do not use the character to RP until they have completed the build. Hence why even RPers do make sue of AE power leveling. because the climb to 50 isnt something they view as an accomplishment but rather as something annoying to get out of the way.

 

Here isa  fun analogue. Some people want their first time being intimate with somebody to be filled with romance, and be memorable. Some just want to get it over with so that the whole awkwardness of the first time is done and put behind them, Neither is really wrong, and trying to say their way is the better isnt really going to win you any converts.

 

Badges should be enough for those who feel the need to have something visual to lord over others. Honestly to me all taht is silly, the only thing you should need to show off your success in game is a character, and the skill to play them that sets you apart from the average player/build. A good bio as well. To me a person lacking a good build and bio can literally do nothing to actually impress me or be treated as accomplished in game in a meaningful way.

And that's why we don't ask for every item to be locked just some.

 

Since when were Rp'ers the only important group? Or even the majority? What you call "time sinks" (if reasonable) the majority of any mmorpg with a large player base call necessary. 

 

Maybe you don't want a large player to rp with a close group a friends? I'd rather have a large player base so I can add to my friends.

 

If the item is necessary to them, they can spend some time getting it.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

12 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

And that's why we don't ask for every item to be locked just some.

 

Since when were Rp'ers the only important group? Or even the majority? What you call "time sinks" (if reasonable) the majority of any mmorpg with a large player base call necessary. 

 

Maybe you don't want a large player to rp with a close group a friends? I'd rather have a large player base so I can add to my friends.

 

If the item is necessary to them, they can spend some time getting it.

Let me give an example that basically shows why your frankly just not understanding our side. Maybe I want to make a  character who from level one is a Vanguard operative, maybe he was captured and mind wiped, or suffered a traumatic injury and has amnesia. He is still a member of vanguard, still holds rank and wears the uniform, but must develop skills once more. A PB or WS character who was previously a mere human vanguard operative is another good example of level 1 character that should be able to begin with vanguard gear.

 

And because the game is an RPG I do put all RP aspects as a priority over non RP wants such as yours. and without trying to make this heavy and serious, If you've read up on any of the papers written by mental health professionals concerning gaming addiction, and game related depression and suicide you'd be aware its not considered a positive mental health trait to tie a sense of accomplishment or success to playing a game. This is different of course for someone who makes a living supporting themselves via playing a game like a twitch streamer or E sport gamer. As their actual sense of accomplishment is coming from earning a living doing what they love. What your pushing for and endorsing here is not something seen as a positive, but instead something that reinforces something that can turn into a full blown mental disorder.

[Hero_of_Light]

24 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Let me give an example that basically shows why your frankly just not understanding our side. Maybe I want to make a  character who from level one is a Vanguard operative, maybe he was captured and mind wiped, or suffered a traumatic injury and has amnesia. He is still a member of vanguard, still holds rank and wears the uniform, but must develop skills once more. A PB or WS character who was previously a mere human vanguard operative is another good example of level 1 character that should be able to begin with vanguard gear.

 

And because the game is an RPG I do put all RP aspects as a priority over non RP wants such as yours. and without trying to make this heavy and serious, If you've read up on any of the papers written by mental health professionals concerning gaming addiction, and game related depression and suicide you'd be aware its not considered a positive mental health trait to tie a sense of accomplishment or success to playing a game. This is different of course for someone who makes a living supporting themselves via playing a game like a twitch streamer or E sport gamer. As their actual sense of accomplishment is coming from earning a living doing what they love. What your pushing for and endorsing here is not something seen as a positive, but instead something that reinforces something that can turn into a full blown mental disorder.

And I completely understand that,  but that's why you wait to make that character until another character unlocked that gear.

 

At least that's how my old group did it and it was a blast helping each other get the gear they needed for a new idea, yet you wish to bar people from that joy completely,  not even allowing for a couple costume peices like that. 

[Rigged]

Honestly I think that even for the purposes you want, putting cosmetics behind a challenge wall will not actually extend the interest in the game. Guild Wars 2 manages a cosmetic endgame by putting them behind extremely onerous and extended grinds, taking months for a weapon skin and weeks in some cases for an armour set. This works for them because grind is part of GW2 culture, but our player base is much older and is significantly more interested in community over progression.

 

In contrast, putting the vanguard pieces behind a grind wall in the case of the vanguard armour didn't serve as much if a speed bump to power players and they didn't much appreciate the set anyway, whereas for the extreme roleplayer end who hardly play their character and for whom 35 is a long distance to go, the costumes were out if their reach despite the fact that they were the ones most likely to appreciate it.

 

In fact, the Live devs began moving towards a power progression in the form of Incarnate content. Incarnates are not part of any examplar build, being limited to lvl 45 and up. This makes them an optional extra. I mentioned before that I would be massively in favor of new incarnate trials that were mandatory to unlock new incarnate slots and powers. Since itrials have a complexity that may be out of reach for our volunteer devs, perhaps new task forces might be more appropriate?

 

To help the topic, perhaps another option would be to put in new accolades, without powers (or long cooldown powers like the crey cryo pistol). Alternatively, perhaps the reward of a random purple recipe (an ATO, possibly?) for completion of say, all the task forces in a category, (excepting those in Task Force Commander) or for getting every exploration badge on an entire side (all of Paragon City or Rogue Isles or Praetoria).

 

To all the earlier arguments: what is wrong with making your cosmetic wall opt-in? This would immediately dispel accusations that you want to deny costume parts to other people while still giving you the challenge and goalposts you crave.

[Yomo Kimyata]

36 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

If you've read up on any of the papers written by mental health professionals concerning gaming addiction, and game related depression and suicide you'd be aware its not considered a positive mental health trait to tie a sense of accomplishment or success to playing a game. This is different of course for someone who makes a living supporting themselves via playing a game like a twitch streamer or E sport gamer. As their actual sense of accomplishment is coming from earning a living doing what they love. What your pushing for and endorsing here is not something seen as a positive, but instead something that reinforces something that can turn into a full blown mental disorder.

I'm not refuting you; I haven't read your papers and I'm not professionally qualified to judge them.  But it seems to me that tying a sense of accomplishment to a game, or a job, or a sporting event, or a relationship, or any of a million other human characteristics is pretty much inherent to the human condition.  So I read what you are saying is that seeking accomplishment or success leads to mental disorders?  I must be misreading that, because I think it is just bananas.

 

Personally, I think you are tilting at windmills, but if this is something that is really important to you, you might get more bang for the buck by targeting, say, sports fans rather than video game players.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I haven't read every single post, but I did read the first two pages.  I wholeheartedly agree with the title:  as we add new content, make some of it unlockable.  I know it's CRAZY to ask people to do any sort of "effort" to play a free game, but I completely accept the belief that accomplishment is soothing and unlocks endorphins!  I would not take anything back, although I think that "City of Participation Trophies" is a little simplistic right now.  But going forward, make impossible badges (Solo Hamidon!; meet every person on your server).  Give people the chance to really do something unique in the classic sense of the word, and give them recognition and validation for that.  My two cents.

[Hero_of_Light]

5 minutes ago, Rigged said:

 

To all the earlier arguments: what is wrong with making your cosmetic wall opt-in? This would immediately dispel accusations that you want to deny costume parts to other people while still giving you the challenge and goalposts you crave.

And I've said i could be agreeable to that, as long as at least a title and badge were awarded for taking a more difficult road. 

[Hero_of_Light]

18 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I haven't read every single post, but I did read the first two pages.  I wholeheartedly agree with the title:  as we add new content, make some of it unlockable.  I know it's CRAZY to ask people to do any sort of "effort" to play a free game, but I completely accept the belief that accomplishment is soothing and unlocks endorphins!  I would not take anything back, although I think that "City of Participation Trophies" is a little simplistic right now.  But going forward, make impossible badges (Solo Hamidon!; meet every person on your server).  Give people the chance to really do something unique in the classic sense of the word, and give them recognition and validation for that.  My two cents.

Wholeheartedly agree, there should be a huge ammout of options in every regard so everyone can enjoy the game,  not hussy ( supposed to be just, but the auto correct is to funny) roleplayers.

 

Have a top hat that's free, a top hat with a band that takes 10 skulls defeated to get, a top hat with a band and a buckle that requires a skull story arc, and a top hat with a band a buckle and a rose, for some skulls goal beyond that,  but im sure 10 skulls is already to much effort for some. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Hero_of_Light

[Hero_of_Light]

Once thing that I would also say too is that there's always different sets for a fraction. 

 

 

What if say, a Vanguard costume set was free, but then a Vanguard Prime set was an unlockable for the story arc?

 

That way your character that was a vanguard but lost thier memory and has to relearn can be so at level one with no effort given, and those that want costumes with some significance can earn the vanguard prime armor.

[biostem]

25 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I know it's CRAZY to ask people to do any sort of "effort" to play a free game

The way you phrased that, it leads me to believe that putting in the "effort" to unlock stuff isn't actually an accomplishment at all.  If that is indeed the case, then why bother locking it behind a badge, number of kills, or mission at all?  If the tasks necessary to achieve something are actually negligible, then why have them?  Wouldn't any such accomplishment be empty?  If playing the game itself isn't enough of a reward for you to "unlock endorphins", then maybe you're looking in the wrong place...

Edited November 3, 2019 by biostem

[Hero_of_Light]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

 

And because the game is an RPG I do put all RP aspects as a priority over non RP wants such as yours. 

I do role play. I just do so mostly with the confines of the game. 

 

So instead of coming up with a story on how my character got the vanguard prime set and explaining it to people, I can just use it knowing that I helped push the rikti back and trying to find out what happened to Hero One and anyone seeing it will automatically know that too.

 

Then if I want to, I can make a new character that already was a vanguard prime, but lost his memory and has to start learning over again. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

The way you phrased that, it leads me to believe that putting in the "effort" to unlock stuff isn't actually an accomplishment at all.  If that is indeed the case, then why bother locking it behind a badge, number of kills, or mission at all?  If the tasks necessary to achieve something are actually negligible, then why have them?  Wouldn't any such accomplishment be empty?  If playing the game itself isn't enough of a reward for you to "unlock endorphins", then maybe you're looking in the wrong place...

I can't tell you what you believe, but the way I phrased it should have been clear that I recognize that some people believe that effort and games should be completely separated, and that I personally do not believe that.  I thought the capitalization would have made it clear, but maybe I need to go back to the 90s and start putting in /sarcasm tags.

 

And I do not agree with adding negligible tasks, as again I thought my post made clear.  If you are soloing Hamidon trivially, good for you!  You should get a badge!  No, make tasks "meaningful" and add recognition and validation.

 

What it comes down to is what do the devs want to do?  They have a working game that is not run for profit.  There seem to be two factions:  Make it harder and Make it easier.  If I were a dev, I would push the game in the direction that I personally enjoyed.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

So instead of coming up with a story on how my character got the vanguard prime set and explaining it to people, I can just use it knowing that I helped push the rikti back and trying to find out what happened to Hero One and anyone seeing it will automatically know that too.

And why is your background story any more valid than someone else's?  What if their gear is simply a facsimile of actual Vanguard tech?  What if that person is actually a Vanguard soldier form an alternate universe where the Rikti won the battle?

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I can't tell you what you believe, but the way I phrased it should have been clear that I recognize that some people believe that effort and games should be completely separated, and that I personally do not believe that.  I thought the capitalization would have made it clear, but maybe I need to go back to the 90s and start putting in /sarcasm tags.

Inflection doesn't carry over very well in a text-only forum.  your use of all caps in the word "crazy" could mean that you think, completely seriously, that yes, people should have to put in effort to earn things like costume pieces, or it could be an indication of you being sarcastic.  You wrote it, so obviously you know what you meant, but don't make the mistake of thinking that intent is "obvious" to other readers...

[Yomo Kimyata]

Just now, biostem said:

Inflection doesn't carry over very well in a text-only forum.  your use of all caps in the word "crazy" could mean that you think, completely seriously, that yes, people should have to put in effort to earn things like costume pieces, or it could be an indication of you being sarcastic.  You wrote it, so obviously you know what you meant, but don't make the mistake of thinking that intent is "obvious" to other readers...

Next time I will say CA-RAZY!!!!!!! 

[Hero_of_Light]

9 minutes ago, biostem said:

And why is your background story any more valid than someone else's?  What if their gear is simply a facsimile of actual Vanguard tech?  What if that person is actually a Vanguard soldier form an alternate universe where the Rikti won the battle?

Then they should be fine with the free vanguard armor, and I'll be fine earning the vanguard prime armor. 

 

And If that isn't good enough and the character is instead a vanguard prime,  well then put forth stone effort and earn that armor on another character first than. 

 

Be okay with delaying gratification,  it tastes sweeter that way. 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Then they should be fine with the free vanguard armor, and I'll be fine earning the vanguard prime armor. 

 

And If that isn't good enough and the character is instead a vanguard prime,  well then put forth stone effort and earn that armor on another character first than. 

 

Be okay with delaying gratification,  it tastes sweeter that way. 

Or, and just hear me out here... let everyone use whatever costume pieces they want, and you can have your vaunted "Vanguard Prime" badge to display above your name, instead of taking options away from someone else.

[Megajoule]

But how will the OP know and be able to prove, to themselves and others, that they're more accomplished than all the other lazy people playing a video game unless they have a way of showing it?

The need is twofold - to have some way of achieving a "high score", and being able to brag about it.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Megajoule