Have the talks with NCsoft slowed down content progression?

[Abraxus]

All that would be great, but let's keep in mind that they are (at least for the moment) still running a pretty small crew, all volunteer, and in their free time.  That could change in the future, but for now, that's a pretty tall order.

[Doc_Scorpion]

40 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

As each toolset is created, create a subgroup dedicated to that content.  So once you have good tools for adding and testing costumes without requiring devs, create a costume group for costume pieces.

You will always require devs...  Because even with good tools, you can't depend on J. Random Luser to have properly created and tested the new content.  (Setting aside the fact that creating such tools, that require minimal dev intervention, would be a herculean effort in and of themselves.)  And that's not even addressing the question of gameplay and balance passes.

Unsupervised mass content production doesn't result in a tasty dish, it results in frog barf.

[DougGraves]

3 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

You will always require devs...  Because even with good tools, you can't depend on J. Random Luser to have properly created and tested the new content.  

 

A developer is a specific technical role.  You can have content creators, testers, and approvers on the homecoming team that are not developers.  

[golstat2003]

58 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

A developer is a specific technical role.  You can have content creators, testers, and approvers on the homecoming team that are not developers.  

But the overall reviewers should still be developers, imo (aka folks who do this for a living with specific experience writing and reviewing code). Unless we are saying any volunteer with no experience looking at COH's spaghetti code should be able to touch it. Which I don't (hope) think you're saying.

Edited November 5, 2019 by golstat2003

[DougGraves]

You create tools so that you do not have to touch the code.  Players can create mission arcs in AE without touching the code.  Creating mission arcs for the regular game should also use a tool so that the mission arcs are created just from data, no code.  Same should go for creating costume pieces, modifying powers, etc.  It should just be data.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, DougGraves said:

You create tools so that you do not have to touch the code.  Players can create mission arcs in AE without touching the code.  Creating mission arcs for the regular game should also use a tool so that the mission arcs are created just from data, no code.  Same should go for creating costume pieces, modifying powers, etc.  It should just be data.

Which should be reviewed by an engineer on the team before anything is ported up to any server, including the beta/testing servers. I'm not talking about creation, I'm talking about final review before it's deployed anywhere. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by golstat2003

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

 

A developer is a specific technical role.  You can have content creators, testers, and approvers on the homecoming team that are not developers.  

Mostly true.  It's also a widely used general term for all person involved in the development and production of a game.

[DR_Mechano]

As the original poster, the explanation that was posted by Jimmy (its on the recommended post tab up the top) is more than enough for me. Thank you for your time I was just curious as to why we hadn't seen things like new powersets or new costumes and you gave an explanation as to why, things like the 64 bit server and technical back end stuff.

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

As the original poster, the explanation that was posted by Jimmy (its on the recommended post tab up the top) is more than enough for me. Thank you for your time I was just curious as to why we hadn't seen things like new powersets or new costumes and you gave an explanation as to why, things like the 64 bit server and technical back end stuff.

Some of us are hoping to see the final Tanker changes go live before we age another year (December birthday and all that)...

[Abraxus]

8 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Some of us are hoping to see the final Tanker changes go live before we age another year (December birthday and all that)...

I'm curious about those myself, having two Tanks in their 20s, and 30s, respectively.    I know I could go to Pineapple, and test them, but there just doesn't seem to be enough hours in the day to play live, AND do testing.

[Myrmidon]

37 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

I'm curious about those myself, having two Tanks in their 20s, and 30s, respectively.    I know I could go to Pineapple, and test them, but there just doesn't seem to be enough hours in the day to play live, AND do testing.

Wait for the next patch, which will likely have the final build before going live (if Kinetic Melee cooperates).

[Bossk_Hogg]

I'm just hoping we can get the NPC-restricted parts currently in the game unlocked soon. Most of them don't have any issues, as evidenced by fooling around in Icon, and other servers have unlocked them already. I have a Psi Sentinel waiting for that corrupted seer head to be freed!

[MunkiLord]

14 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Some of us are hoping to see the final Tanker changes go live before we age another year (December birthday and all that)...

I doubt that. I think CP said there will be at least two more patches, and with various holidays coming up, may be a bit longer.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

I doubt that. I think CP said there will be at least two more patches, and with various holidays coming up, may be a bit longer.

 Yes, this next one is likely to be the final set of changes, then the patch after will be the cleaned up version that heads to live. My estimate last week was 6-8 weeks, so I figure that it will be after my birthday, however, I would love to be wrong. 😁

[MunkiLord]

I'd love that too, because I'm waiting on this to go live before making my first Tanker. 

[Megajoule]

To go back to the OP, and everyone else asking for some or all of the (remaining) NPC-only costume bits to be unlocked:

All you (we) know is that there are no issues with these costume pieces that you have observed or are aware of, or that you're not willing to live with.  The HC devs may know/think/believe otherwise.  Historically, the common attitude I've observed on the player side has been "I don't care if there are issues (with clipping, etc), I want it now."

It may be that they are fine to go live as-is; it may not.

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Megajoule

[jubakumbi]

4 hours ago, Megajoule said:

To go back to the OP, and everyone else asking for some or all of the (remaining) NPC-only costume bits to be unlocked:

All you (we) know is that there are no issues with these costume pieces that you have observed or are aware of, or that you're not willing to live with.  The HC devs may know/think/believe otherwise.  Historically, the common attitude I've observed on the player side has been "I don't care if there are issues (with clipping, etc), I want it now."

It may be that they are fine to go live as-is; it may not.

 

Uh...other servers have been doing a ton of testing and implemetation with costume parts.

It's a whole lot more confirmed to work than a couple posters in this thread seeing it work.

HC can do what they want, but his rings like pure FUD to me in an effort to get people to obey.

Historically, the HC team has tried to act like Paragon Studios, while many other very good developers have been able to really make some changes to the game and get a handle on it's inner workings.

A whole lot of us don't really need or want HC to be acting like 'they know better' because we don't need parents.

We still get the FUD about the code being 'so hard', etc., when plenty of people have been swimming in it now for a while.

 

HC has decided to take a pragmatic, corporate like stance in the way they operate.

People who love to obey a position of authority and have a single source of truth are eating that up like cupcakes, bcause 'talks'. *eyeroll*

 

There are plenty of us that don't want or need an authority figure in this regard, one that makes players think they can tell us they 'know better' when we can see with our own eyes it seems.

HC has chosen what they think is the right way to operate and that's fine.

That does not mean they know anything better.

[Abraxus]

4 hours ago, Megajoule said:

To go back to the OP, and everyone else asking for some or all of the (remaining) NPC-only costume bits to be unlocked:

All you (we) know is that there are no issues with these costume pieces that you have observed or are aware of, or that you're not willing to live with.  The HC devs may know/think/believe otherwise.  Historically, the common attitude I've observed on the player side has been "I don't care if there are issues (with clipping, etc), I want it now."

It may be that they are fine to go live as-is; it may not.

 

For myself, I'd rather have it right, than fast.

[Abraxus]

6 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Uh...other servers have been doing a ton of testing and implemetation with costume parts.

It's a whole lot more confirmed to work than a couple posters in this thread seeing it work.

HC can do what they want, but his rings like pure FUD to me in an effort to get people to obey.

Historically, the HC team has tried to act like Paragon Studios, while many other very good developers have been able to really make some changes to the game and get a handle on it's inner workings.

A whole lot of us don't really need or want HC to be acting like 'they know better' because we don't need parents.

We still get the FUD about the code being 'so hard', etc., when plenty of people have been swimming in it now for a while.

 

HC has decided to take a pragmatic, corporate like stance in the way they operate.

People who love to obey a position of authority and have a single source of truth are eating that up like cupcakes, bcause 'talks'. *eyeroll*

 

There are plenty of us that don't want or need an authority figure in this regard, one that makes players think they can tell us they 'know better' when we can see with our own eyes it seems.

HC has chosen what they think is the right way to operate and that's fine.

That does not mean they know anything better.

HC devs know how they want to approach things, and so far, that approach has worked out just fine, except for the folks who see the different approaches taken at other servers.  It's great that they have the choice to go there, and play with those shinys, but no two servers are going to implement the same changes, in the same order, and they will become increasingly different as time goes by.  People have the choice to play on one, or multiple servers to experience the parts they consider important to their experience.   But, I don't expect the HC servers development track to monumentally shift to accommodate the desire for all the stuff that folks like at other servers, and to have it right now.  They are working on their own shinys, and if you like those, you'll play here.  If you want to play with the other stuff, you'll go there.  Nobody is forced to stick to one server.  

For the record, I believe the codebase that HC has stuck with is essentially the i25 stuff that was changed over the 7 years with SCORE.  Others have chosen to revert back to i24, so I believe the HC devs DO know something we don't about the code they are working with, and they are moving in a direction best suited for that choice.  They are not pontificating about what other servers, or other players should do.  They have simply laid out their plans for this server, and if you like it you play here.  If you don't you might play here, and in other places.  But, I think the only ones who have advocated for specific things, or denied that specific things are possible are the players themselves who frequent this forum.  I for one have never gotten the impression that the Devs here are lording over us, and telling us what we should like, so I'm not sure where that comes from, but on that point, we agree to disagree. 🙂

 

[jubakumbi]

21 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

For myself, I'd rather have it right, than fast.

That's a fine stance.

That outlook becomes an attack vector when it gets used to try and imply that because others choose to do these things, they are being done wrong.

HC, has they stated, chose to do things in a certain order, which is just fine.

However, for any gamers to turn around and say that stance is simply 'better' is nothing more than an objective opinion.

For a lot of people at this stage of the games life, adding a ton of costume parts, with or without clipping, that the players have wanted for years, that have been added to the player options successfully, would be a reason for them to keep playing.

Implying that these players 'want it now' as if they are somehow greedy and impatient is silly, some of them have been waiting 15 years and they know it can be done.

 

If HC, as other posters have told me, wants to be successful, they have to cater to the players.

So far, they have been doing what they choose and telling the rest of us "this is how it has to be, it's the only way", just like a corp.

I don't even think the team has a bad plan, but to think the HC plan is automatically 'better' is some serious rose-colored spectacles.

 

From my PoV, I see some good programming, the stability and the graphics changes are awesome, but not very good game/content building and simply because of that, gamers have decided to try and push the agenda that other people, just as dedicated to the game in thier own ways, who have added content, are now 'wrong' because it's not the HC way.

It sounds just like a bunch of archaic tribalism to me.

Edited November 7, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

HC devs know how they want to approach things, and so far, that approach has worked out just fine, except for the folks who see the different approaches taken at other servers.  It's great that they have the choice to go there, and play with those shinys, but no two servers are going to implement the same changes, in the same order, and they will become increasingly different as time goes by.  People have the choice to play on one, or multiple servers to experience the parts they consider important to their experience.   But, I don't expect the HC servers development track to monumentally shift to accommodate the desire for all the stuff that folks like at other servers, and to have it right now.  They are working on their own shinys, and if you like those, you'll play here.  If you want to play with the other stuff, you'll go there.  Nobody is forced to stick to one server.  

For the record, I believe the codebase that HC has stuck with is essentially the i25 stuff that was changed over the 7 years with SCORE.  Others have chosen to revert back to i24, so I believe the HC devs DO know something we don't about the code they are working with, and they are moving in a direction best suited for that choice.  They are not pontificating about what other servers, or other players should do.  They have simply laid out their plans for this server, and if you like it you play here.  If you don't you might play here, and in other places.  But, I think the only ones who have advocated for specific things, or denied that specific things are possible are the players themselves who frequent this forum.  I for one have never gotten the impression that the Devs here are lording over us, and telling us what we should like, so I'm not sure where that comes from, but on that point, we agree to disagree. 🙂

 

Agreed. I have not seen any homecoming dev outright come out and say the stuff that other servers are doing "we'll never do". What I HAVE seen the HC devs say is that they are getting the background/foundational stuff (like a 64 bit client and continuing to have their client run on MacOS) done first.

 

And that's fine.

 

As long as we do eventually get some shinies that are the same across all the servers (like the non-PC costume parts) I'm fine. The other custom ATs built on other servers I really couldn't care less about. If they can get something similar here fine, if not, no.

 

And most certainly they should stick to the i25 version they are on. I've tried the i24 other servers and it's like playing in molasses when compared to here. Especially for the Incarnate part of the game.

[golstat2003]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

That's a fine stance.

That outlook becomes an attack vector when it gets used to try and imply that because others choose to do these things, they are being done wrong.

HC, has they stated, chose to do things in a certain order, which is just fine.

However, for any gamers to turn around and say that stance is simply 'better' is nothing more than an objective opinion.

For a lot of people at this stage of the games life, adding a ton of costume parts, with or without clipping, that the players have wanted for years, that have been added to the player options successfully, would be a reason for them to keep playing.

Implying that these players 'want it now' as if they are somehow greedy and impatient is silly, some of them have been waiting 15 years and they know it can be done.

 

If HC, as other posters have told me, wants to be successful, they have to cater to the players.

So far, they have been doing what they choose and telling the rest of us "this is how it has to be, it's the only way", just like a corp.

I don't even think the team has a bad plan, but to think the HC plan is automatically 'better' is some serious rose-colored spectacles.

 

From my PoV, I see some good programming, the stability and the graphics changes are awesome, but not very good game/content building and simply because of that, gamers have decided to try and push the agenda that other people, just as dedicated to the game in thier own ways, who have added content, are now 'wrong' because it's not the HC way.

It sounds just like a bunch of archaic tribalism to me.

Honestly for SOME costume parts I would very much prefer if HC handled the clipping. I don't like how they look with clipping on some of the other servers.

[jubakumbi]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

Honestly for SOME costume parts I would very much prefer if HC handled the clipping. I don't like how they look with clipping on some of the other servers.

And that is the discussion to have, not that the other servers are doing it wrong or that players are impatient and greedy.

[golstat2003]

4 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

And that is the discussion to have, not that the other servers are doing it wrong or that players are impatient and greedy.

Agreed. But in this specific instance (clipping costume parts) I think they are doing it wrong.  😛

 

Others may be fine with the clipping costume parts. And that's okay. We can discuss the whys and why nots and then the devs will ultimately make the decision.

 

That said the players (on ALL the servers) have to remember that we are dealing with volunteers, and each server will move at it's own pace. If HC decides to focus on story content ahead of customer parts (honestly what I would personally prefer, others may disagree) that is NOT inherently wrong. Just as it's not wrong for other servers to focus on costume parts and new ATs ahead of story content or foundational code changes.

Edited November 7, 2019 by golstat2003

[Abraxus]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

And that is the discussion to have, not that the other servers are doing it wrong or that players are impatient and greedy.

Thus my previous stance of "I'd rather have it right, than fast".  Though they have never said so (that I know of), I feel like the Devs look at it the same way.  Down the line, when they get into more of the "want to" kinds of stuff that the players have been asking for, as opposed to the "need to" fundamental stuff they have primarily been focused on.  I think we'll eventually get all that, and when we do, it will have been worth the wait.  But, that's me.  Optimistic about the future here, and greatly satisfied with the present.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Abraxus