Suggestion - Devs give us feedback on what they like or is possible

[plainguy]

It would be helpful if the Devs gave the players some feedback. 

 

What is Pie in the Sky impossible ?

For example I kept reading that Mastermind models were baked in.. Can't be changed.. Forget it not possible. 

I then come to read on another game server that Mastermind models have been changed. You can use freakshows and other models. So in the end it is possible.. 

I also understand that limited to no testing might have also been done on these changes causing who knows what issues ( if any ) on that other game server.

 

I know I have posted my ideas several times here repeatedly. I have seen others post my same ideas. I am sure I posted someone else's idea from a week ago without knowing.

 

Sometimes I feel some good ideas ( Not necessarily mine ) get lost because they are just drowned by some impossible or unreasonable request. 

 

Some direction isn't bad. 

EG

Devs- We want input on aura's.

Community comes in and drops down 100 or more ideas on aura's.

 

Devs - Looking for Whips AT suggestion.

Community comes in helps flesh out different whips attacks based on Archtype. You might end up with Stalker Archtype no one was even expecting. 

 

 

I just think it gives the community a goal. 

It makes people feel like they were part of something grand.

Or I could be overthinking this.. I don't know.

 

Just putting it out here, again.

[Leogunner]

15 minutes ago, plainguy said:

It would be helpful if the Devs gave the players some feedback. 

 

What is Pie in the Sky impossible ?

For example I kept reading that Mastermind models were baked in.. Can't be changed.. Forget it not possible. 

I then come to read on another game server that Mastermind models have been changed. You can use freakshows and other models. So in the end it is possible.. 

I also understand that limited to no testing might have also been done on these changes causing who knows what issues ( if any ) on that other game server.

I think that might be in regards to customization, i.e. you can alter the look of the pets but you can swap the models with another model.  At which point, you won't be able to use the old models, just the ones you replaced them with.

 

As for the devs giving feedback, I'm not opposed to it but this is also not their job.  I'll just leave my commentary to that and hope for more feedback and discussion.  Often, ideas and suggestions get bogged down or locked by side discussions (I'm guilty, too) so some criticism for the regular forum go-er is don't always take the "high" road and say what people want to hear or nothing at all.  Talk about as many facets about an idea to really get the discussion flowing.

[GM Sijin]

5 hours ago, Leogunner said:

As for the devs giving feedback, I'm not opposed to it but this is also not their job.

Technically nothing they do regarding Homecoming is their jobs, being unpaid volunteers.

 

Expanding that, and addressing the topic of the thread, the issue is a lot of things are an unknown. And things aren't usually actually 'possible vs impossible.' The tend to rather be degrees of plausible or feasible. Programming languages and engines tend to be pretty flexible, and often times knowing if something is strictly possible requires either a high level of knowledge of all involved systems, or experimentation, neither of which is perfect. It's also quite impossible to devs to lay out "this is literally everything that's possible/impossible" or even come remotely close to such a list.

 

Finally you have the social aspect of the weight of a developer reply, and more importantly player's assigned expectations to those replies. If a dev said something was possible, that isn't necessarily an indication of it being considered acceptable but it can be taken that way. And even if a dev say something appears to be acceptable, that isn't a promise that it will be implemented. Things come up. Ideas that seem sound may prove to be difficult for a variety of reasons, many of which may escape the understanding of many players. And no matter how they word it there will be those who interpret it as a promise to implement the feature, or at least are upset if the features don't happen for whatever reason.

 

This isn't to say we won't ever see more feedback from the team, or more likely from community reps. The reality is they're busy people, dealing with a pretty huge project on top of a project, on top of their actual jobs, and family lives, and time to spend with their friends and do the other things in life they enjoy doing. Every moment they're here on the forums reading and responding to ideas is that much less time they have available to actually do the things we'd like them to. This is why I brought up community reps, as when things settle for the team they're the most likely candidates to engage the community directly. They can filter and bring information to and from the devs in a much more focused manner, freeing up the dev's time to do... development.

 

Lastly, the level of focused feedback does exist. It's just more of a test feedback loop than a proposed feature feedback loop. The test server has had two very specific feedback runs so far: snipe overhaul and now tanker AT overhaul. 

[MetaVileTerror]

Some excellent points, Sijin, but there is still something that could help a LOT, and that's the design and development philosophy which the Homecoming Team have here.  As it stands, it's a really nebulous, with the "feels like home" catchphrase.  There's a lot of ways which pertinent information regarding the present and future development could be shared while mitigating miscommunication.  

 

I've seen the attempt to justify a lack of communication with "but people will take it the wrong way" quite a lot.  Not just here, mind you, but in the industry at large.  Thing is, that level of media blackout doesn't help the players or the developers . . . it's a systematically cultured "standard" to help the P.R. and marketing sectors.  Open, honest, and complete communication between the playerbase and the dev teams is possible, and it does work.  Clear lines of communication has a proven track record of being healthy for the game and its community even when the Devs announce controversial plans.  Speak to Chris Bourassa and Tyler Sigman, or Justin Ma and Matthew Davis.  Their games THRIVED not just because they're great games, but because of the level of clear, concise communication with their players about their intentions AND limitations.

 

And that's the big one:  Limitations.  We have a few regular posters in these forums who seem to love to say this-or-that is "impossible."  Whatever their reasons are, they're feeding in to that same standard culture I mentioned earlier.  They're the sort of people my team would try to encourage to have the community "self-regulate" more effectively.  If you missed it in the gated-content thread, I worked in the games industry in a series of roles which gave me insight in to the methods and intent behind deliberate manipulation of information.  It's also why I got out of the industry.

 

Information blackouts do not help the players, and they do not help the developers.  Clear, honest communication helps both.

Of course, the Homecoming Team are very busy, and this is volunteer work.  I realize my tone and my choice of words rarely emphasizes just how much I appreciate their continued efforts, and how grateful I am for all that's been done.  But I'm passionate about this game, its future, and what it means to potentially /sticking-it/ to my past bosses.  I want Homecoming and the City of Heroes revival projects to succeed, not just for the game to be back, but for what it means to the industry and its systemic decay under the weight of fiscally-driven tampering.  And so I am trying, as hard as I can, to communicate the importance of shrugging off the habits instilled in professional developers which actively hamper and sabotage those same developers.

I hope I can find the words to explain how important this is, and I do hope that some engagement on the subject can occur.  If not with the Development Team members directly (again, they're busy and they're volunteers, I get that, and I'm thankful for their time), then with some elected member of the Community Representatives.

 

As a stretch goal (since I know this is a big ask, even to a paid employee), I'd like to see a C.R. whose role it is to delineate the current development cycle:

- the number of members on a given task

- the level of commitment those members are able to provide (volunteers, after all, have more impactful commitments in their lives)

- the confidence of those team members in their ability to deliver

- the date of the last time the C.R. had an update from the team members,

- the future plans in a similar level of detail.  

Naturally, none of this would be written in stone; it would be a constant on-going progress report.  But it would give the players a direct line in to what's really going on.  It would allow for more meaningful dialogues and discussions, with pointed feedback, and could be a great way to seek out new talent willing to help with specific issues or new content.

Even a portion of that information would be appreciated.  Just something to help the community KNOW, rather than constantly speculate in the dark.  Even just a more meaningful mission statement than "feels like home," please.

 

Thank you for your time, hard work, and consideration.  I know I forget to say that, so sorry for saying it not-quite-often-enough.

[plainguy]

14 hours ago, GM Sijin said:

Technically nothing they do regarding Homecoming is their jobs, being unpaid volunteers.

 

Expanding that, and addressing the topic of the thread, the issue is a lot of things are an unknown. And things aren't usually actually 'possible vs impossible.' The tend to rather be degrees of plausible or feasible. Programming languages and engines tend to be pretty flexible, and often times knowing if something is strictly possible requires either a high level of knowledge of all involved systems, or experimentation, neither of which is perfect. It's also quite impossible to devs to lay out "this is literally everything that's possible/impossible" or even come remotely close to such a list.

 

Finally you have the social aspect of the weight of a developer reply, and more importantly player's assigned expectations to those replies. If a dev said something was possible, that isn't necessarily an indication of it being considered acceptable but it can be taken that way. And even if a dev say something appears to be acceptable, that isn't a promise that it will be implemented. Things come up. Ideas that seem sound may prove to be difficult for a variety of reasons, many of which may escape the understanding of many players. And no matter how they word it there will be those who interpret it as a promise to implement the feature, or at least are upset if the features don't happen for whatever reason.

 

This isn't to say we won't ever see more feedback from the team, or more likely from community reps. The reality is they're busy people, dealing with a pretty huge project on top of a project, on top of their actual jobs, and family lives, and time to spend with their friends and do the other things in life they enjoy doing. Every moment they're here on the forums reading and responding to ideas is that much less time they have available to actually do the things we'd like them to. This is why I brought up community reps, as when things settle for the team they're the most likely candidates to engage the community directly. They can filter and bring information to and from the devs in a much more focused manner, freeing up the dev's time to do... development.

 

Lastly, the level of focused feedback does exist. It's just more of a test feedback loop than a proposed feature feedback loop. The test server has had two very specific feedback runs so far: snipe overhaul and now tanker AT overhaul. 

First off 

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply back. First time I had someone behind the scene respond to any of my post in the life time I have been gaming. Which is about 30+ years. 

 

There should be a Sticky on the top that pretty much says "We are NOT promising ANYTHING and we can retract and take back anything we say"

 

Without going into a long dribble. 

 

I come this section every so often and as a casual visitor this part of the website I can tell you much of the request/suggestions are circular.  I have seen the same request asked by different people in different variations of the request.  Its not a gripe, just an observation.

 

I'm just wondering  I guess if anyone is doing with all this data.

 

 

[DougGraves]

It would be nice to get a list of general things to do and a t-shirt size for how much effort it is.

 

New AT XXL

New costume piece M

Changing the numbers of a power S

Changing the way a power works M

Creating a new power L

Creating a new zone XXL

 

that would help players focus their thoughts on things that would give them the most value for the effort. 

 

[GM Sijin]

On 11/8/2019 at 8:10 AM, plainguy said:

I'm just wondering  I guess if anyone is doing with all this data.

I can't say what the devs are doing, or talking about, or considering, but I can tell you they read the forums. They also get ideas the GMs find particularly compelling forwarded to them from the discord. They do consider player feedback, hence why the test server is housing bigger 'experimental' changes for long periods of time so that players can get in there, play with them, provide feedback and help guide changes.

[Solarverse]

On 11/7/2019 at 7:57 PM, GM Sijin said:

Technically nothing they do regarding Homecoming is their jobs, being unpaid volunteers.

 

Expanding that, and addressing the topic of the thread, the issue is a lot of things are an unknown. And things aren't usually actually 'possible vs impossible.' The tend to rather be degrees of plausible or feasible. Programming languages and engines tend to be pretty flexible, and often times knowing if something is strictly possible requires either a high level of knowledge of all involved systems, or experimentation, neither of which is perfect. It's also quite impossible to devs to lay out "this is literally everything that's possible/impossible" or even come remotely close to such a list.

 

Finally you have the social aspect of the weight of a developer reply, and more importantly player's assigned expectations to those replies. If a dev said something was possible, that isn't necessarily an indication of it being considered acceptable but it can be taken that way. And even if a dev say something appears to be acceptable, that isn't a promise that it will be implemented. Things come up. Ideas that seem sound may prove to be difficult for a variety of reasons, many of which may escape the understanding of many players. And no matter how they word it there will be those who interpret it as a promise to implement the feature, or at least are upset if the features don't happen for whatever reason.

 

This isn't to say we won't ever see more feedback from the team, or more likely from community reps. The reality is they're busy people, dealing with a pretty huge project on top of a project, on top of their actual jobs, and family lives, and time to spend with their friends and do the other things in life they enjoy doing. Every moment they're here on the forums reading and responding to ideas is that much less time they have available to actually do the things we'd like them to. This is why I brought up community reps, as when things settle for the team they're the most likely candidates to engage the community directly. They can filter and bring information to and from the devs in a much more focused manner, freeing up the dev's time to do... development.

 

Lastly, the level of focused feedback does exist. It's just more of a test feedback loop than a proposed feature feedback loop. The test server has had two very specific feedback runs so far: snipe overhaul and now tanker AT overhaul. 

Not to mention, no matter what kind of suggestion players make, nobody can ever seem to agree on anything. Player feedback can be outright toxic at times, with players on these very forums at each other's throats over a mere suggestion or change. You might have a player with a great idea for improvement or change, and half the players will love it, the other half will hate it, and then the thread turns in to a flame fest.

 

I can't imagine what it would be like to be a Developer looking to make changes based on feedback from the forum posters. Some poster don't want change at all and any suggestion made is swarmed upon with negative feedback and flames. Other times nobody can agree to anything at all and once again it becomes a flame war. If I were a Developer, reading all these pages upon pages of flame wars, i would be scared to death to make any changes out of fear that half my population of players would come at me with pitch forks and torches, lol. No change is easy, just based off fan feedback alone, much less the coding headaches that would be involved.

[GM Sijin]

On 11/8/2019 at 5:28 AM, MetaVileTerror said:

Information blackouts do not help the players, and they do not help the developers.  Clear, honest communication helps both.

I agree, and I agree to much of what you said. I personally hope they opt to be much more open with the development direction in the future. I don't mean to imply otherwise. I don't suspect we'll ever see the level of detail you'd like in your wishlist, but I wouldn't be against the idea assuming it was incredibly minimal in time requirements for the devs.

 

Conjecture warning: Conjecture ahead.

I think a lot of it hinges on the negotiations with NCsoft. I think there's a lot they'd like to say that they can't until everything is Signed and Done. There could be a legal reason they aren't speaking up more about plans. I don't know what their plans are for post-agreement, assuming things go the way that we're hoping they do, and at this point I don't want to know. I'd rather learn it with everyone else then know something I really want to share with everyone, but can't. I'll probably have a change of heart on that last bit once the negotiations are completed, since then it will hopefully just be up to the team what is or isn't shared, and I might actually have a snowball's chance in hell of changing that, but that bridge is probably a ways off yet.

[MetaVileTerror]

 . . . I've tried to type a version of this message three times now, and something in my browser is screwing up and losing me all the text I've been typing . . . 

 

So, short and sweet version:  Thank you very much for your time, candour, and communication, Sijin.  It's deeply appreciated, and your thoughtful response really demonstrates the quality of your character.  I hope this dialogue can be a bridge which builds to greater communication with the Homecoming Team.  

 

I've probably repeated myself enough times in regard to my feelings on what the City of Heroes revival represents, but I'll say that I do so in an attempt to seek answers.   I know that people process information in different ways, so I hope my efforts have not crossed the line in to "annoying" for anyone on the Team.  Although, without direct engagement to my core question from someone with the authority to answer it, I'm afraid all I can think of doing is attempting to engage with them in different ways.  

I don't know enough about Korean corporate culture to understand the impact it may have on communication here at Homecoming, but I'm just hoping that it's just something of that nature which is creating the barriers.  Yet, as it stands, all we've got on the ground floor here is speculation . . . which sucks, for a whole host of reasons. 

 

But . . . thanks again!  You're proving to be a fantastic GM, and your efforts are not going to waste.

[Doc_Scorpion]

23 hours ago, GM Sijin said:

They do consider player feedback

*Consider*, I think, being the appropriate word...

I'm reminded of something BaBs said back on Live - "The best thing a developer can do is listen to the playerbase.  The worst thing a developer can do is listen to the playerbase."

[Megajoule]

"God answers every prayer.  Sometimes the answer is 'no'."

 

(Two other possible answers are "not yet" and "this isn't what you asked for, but it's what you actually need.")

Edited November 11, 2019 by Megajoule