Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for December 6, 2019

[Brutal Justice]

I just logged into everlasting and the message on the Everlasting TFs global channel says “ The Really Hard Way, must be +3 and won’t take too many TANKS*/trollers/empathy this time”

*emphasis mine

 

they must have struggled with more than one tank the last time they tried.  If these test “buffs” go live it will just say “no tanks!”

[Knightshade]

What makes you say that, Sinister?

[Infinitum]

41 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

I just logged into everlasting and the message on the Everlasting TFs global channel says “ The Really Hard Way, must be +3 and won’t take too many TANKS*/trollers/empathy this time”

*emphasis mine

 

they must have struggled with more than one tank the last time they tried.  If these test “buffs” go live it will just say “no tanks!”

The new patch really hurts the tank primary sets - shield for instance with against all odds that gave the one lone argument for tanks being useful - where damage is concerned.

 

Reducing +dmg is actually going to be worse in the grand scheme of things for few sets that excelled.

 

I would almost rather there be no changes if this is going to be the "fix".

Edited December 8, 2019 by Infinitum

[MrAxe]

These changes seem to be terrible over all. My suggestion to wipe it all and start over. Make Tanks the ultimate in aggro management. Separate them by using what was meant to be their primary benefit. Make taunt hit more targets (say 7 for example), remove punch voke from brutes, give brutes say a 3 target taunt and then call it a day. Forget the mucking around with damage that's going to ruin the fun.

[honoraryorange]

1 hour ago, Mr.Sinister said:

I just logged into everlasting and the message on the Everlasting TFs global channel says “ The Really Hard Way, must be +3 and won’t take too many TANKS*/trollers/empathy this time”

*emphasis mine

 

they must have struggled with more than one tank the last time they tried.  If these test “buffs” go live it will just say “no tanks!”

It is odd they didn't include masterminds there, since the way mastermind pets scale (level-wise) means they're 90% useless for Really Hard Way. But the guy who puts them together usually plays one, so maybe that's why lol

[naraganeun]

Really sad about the taunt revert. It was nice to see tanks shine in terms of aggro management and mob positioning. Tank doesn't need big damage numbers like brute if they can position mobs in a way that their teammate's AoEs will hit everything. Also helps keep aggro on the tank so your sidekicks don't die. In large teams the 5 target cap for taunt is really small... maybe a compromise for keeping the 5 target cap is increase the -range effect for tanks? that way smart tanks can use a fast recharging taunt to "pull in" ranged mobs in for spin-to-win?

[Infinitum]

Well as the saying goes the proof is in the pudding, i finally got to test on beta

Shield/SJ tank - same build Live vs Beta - Rikti Pylon #17 - 5 hits each power with Combat readiness - 5 hits each power without.

 

BETA
Combat Readiness
Crushing Uppercut 525.41 544.94 525.41 525.41 525.41
Average 529.316

Sweeping Cross    257.74 257.74 267.33 257.74 257.74
Average 259.658

Initial Strike    111.02 111.02 111.02 115.14 115.14
Average 112.668

Spinning Strike   254.42 205.62 254.42 254.42 254.42
Average 244.66

 

Regular
Crushing Uppercut 289.29 289.29 289.29 289.29 289.29
Sweeping Cross    136.45 136.45 136.45 136.45 136.45

Initial Strike     76.40  76.40  76.40  76.40  76.40
Spinning Strike   140.08 140.08 140.08 140.08 140.08 

LIVE
Combat Readiness
Crushing Uppercut 501.16 501.16 501.16 501.16 501.16
Average 501.16

Sweeping Cross    190.33 190.33 245.85 245.85 245.85
Average 223.642

Initial Strike    121.58 121.58 116.47 116.47 116.47
Average 118.514

Spinning Strike   198.50 253.30 242.68 253.30 242.68
Average 238.092

 

Regular
Crushing Uppercut 253.80 253.80 253.80 253.80 253.80
Sweeping Cross    119.71 119.71 119.71 119.71 119.71
Initial Strike     73.73  73.73  73.73  73.73  73.73
Spinning Strike   122.90 122.90 122.90 122.90 122.90

 

In this case the changes appear to be a gain, I was completely off on crunching the numbers earlier.  I will test more as i get time, but this is my Main on live so naturally i wanted to see how it would affect him first and foremost.

 

So unless there is something i am missing these changes will still be good changes, but as others have stated maybe it needs a little more to go with it since the damage numbers arent as high as they were before on the previous patch, maybe add more aggro management and endurance for the tanks then it would be a really good buff for us.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Infinitum

[honoraryorange]

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

So unless there is something i am missing these changes will still be good changes, but as others have stated maybe it needs a little more to go with it since the damage numbers arent as high as they were before on the previous patch, maybe add more aggro management and endurance for the tanks then it would be a really good buff for us.

I would say the numbers you posted make these just 'changes' rather than good changes.

 

I guess the bigger question is - how big are the changes when you add in, say, maybe 100% more damage from outside buffs? Because right now it looks like just 1-5% more base. Which won't even come CLOSE to making up for your whole team losing Bruising. People are severely underestimating how much damage their team is losing on big fights with that loss.

[KelvinKole]

36 minutes ago, MrAxe said:

These changes seem to be terrible over all. My suggestion to wipe it all and start over. Make Tanks the ultimate in aggro management. Separate them by using what was meant to be their primary benefit. Make taunt hit more targets (say 7 for example), remove punch voke from brutes, give brutes say a 3 target taunt and then call it a day. Forget the mucking around with damage that's going to ruin the fun.

Exactly. This is all too complicated and the changes aren't going to make Tanks more valuable. If players want to do more damage and still be durable, The Brute archetype is already there for them. Any Tank changes should be made in the spirit of making them a more valuable team support archetype. Improved agro management, which the wider/longer reach AoEs does help, and higher buff/debuffs values is really what should be looked at. 

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

So unless there is something i am missing these changes will still be good changes, but as others have stated maybe it needs a little more to go with it since the damage numbers arent as high as they were before on the previous patch, maybe add more aggro management and endurance for the tanks then it would be a really good buff for us.

Thank you for taking the time to test. Keep in mind also, not only are your numbers somewhat higher than on live, but you also get more out of team buffs than before, plus the AoE buffs (that should help with aggro management, your auras are bigger as are all attacks that can taunt.

 

Tanker version of Taunt is back to 5 targets, but it’s -range is still 100%, unlike brute version, this mess enemies will always come to nose distance unless they resist the range debuff.

[Brutal Justice]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Well as the saying goes the proof is in the pudding, i finally got to test on beta

Shield/SJ tank - same build Live vs Beta - Rikti Pylon #17 - 5 hits each power with Combat readiness - 5 hits each power without.

 

BETA
Combat Readiness
Crushing Uppercut 525.41 544.94 525.41 525.41 525.41
Average 529.316

Sweeping Cross    257.74 257.74 267.33 257.74 257.74
Average 259.658

Initial Strike    111.02 111.02 111.02 115.14 115.14
Average 112.668

Spinning Strike   254.42 205.62 254.42 254.42 254.42
Average 244.66

 

Regular
Crushing Uppercut 289.29 289.29 289.29 289.29 289.29
Sweeping Cross    136.45 136.45 136.45 136.45 136.45

Initial Strike     76.40  76.40  76.40  76.40  76.40
Spinning Strike   140.08 140.08 140.08 140.08 140.08 

LIVE
Combat Readiness
Crushing Uppercut 501.16 501.16 501.16 501.16 501.16
Average 501.16

Sweeping Cross    190.33 190.33 245.85 245.85 245.85
Average 223.642

Initial Strike    121.58 121.58 116.47 116.47 116.47
Average 118.514

Spinning Strike   198.50 253.30 242.68 253.30 242.68
Average 238.092

 

Regular
Crushing Uppercut 253.80 253.80 253.80 253.80 253.80
Sweeping Cross    119.71 119.71 119.71 119.71 119.71
Initial Strike     73.73  73.73  73.73  73.73  73.73
Spinning Strike   122.90 122.90 122.90 122.90 122.90

 

In this case the changes appear to be a gain, I was completely off on crunching the numbers earlier.  I will test more as i get time, but this is my Main on live so naturally i wanted to see how it would affect him first and foremost.

 

So unless there is something i am missing these changes will still be good changes, but as others have stated maybe it needs a little more to go with it since the damage numbers arent as high as they were before on the previous patch, maybe add more aggro management and endurance for the tanks then it would be a really good buff for us.

On live did you apply bruising before you hit to factor in the loss of bruising?  The numbers show beta to have higher damage than live until you factor in bruising.

[Infinitum]

30 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Thank you for taking the time to test. Keep in mind also, not only are your numbers somewhat higher than on live, but you also get more out of team buffs than before, plus the AoE buffs (that should help with aggro management, your auras are bigger as are all attacks that can taunt.

 

Tanker version of Taunt is back to 5 targets, but it’s -range is still 100%, unlike brute version, this mess enemies will always come to nose distance unless they resist the range debuff.

Yeah i was pleasantly surprised, and yeah the damage cap being increased also will make it better.  I was worried at first but i think its a good change overall still.

I will test on a few more when i get time for sure, but i think its going to come out in our favor is people will take the time to compare Live vs Test.

[Infinitum]

40 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

On live did you apply bruising before you hit to factor in the loss of bruising?  The numbers show beta to have higher damage than live until you factor in bruising.

Actually i didnt, but I also forgot to take into account on live I have aura of MOT running.  That means the live damage numbers are 9% abnormally higher than they should be.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Infinitum

[Mikewho]

Did a bit of testing with shield/dark and it’s actually a nerf for me compared to live. This is largely because bruising is easy to use for dark melee. So while the base damage buff makes up for the loss of bruising, the nerf to +damage effects hits soul drain and aao hard. I’m doing substantially less damage on beta. I don’t play tanks much so I personally don’t mind this stuff much, but my guess is it’ll get a negative reaction from a lot of people.

[Captain Powerhouse]

57 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Actually i didnt, but I also forgot to take into account on live I have aura of MOT running.  That means the live damage numbers are 9% abnormally higher than they should be.

That 9% would mean a lot more after the change, and also to consider: against a +3 purple parch means bruise goes down to 13%, and you can’t spread bruise across multiple foes. I still will likely adjust things a bit more in the next patch. Need to crunch more numbers but might go got .85 instead of .75 for the self damage buff mod.

 

 

[Infinitum]

30 minutes ago, Kaylin said:

Did a bit of testing with shield/dark and it’s actually a nerf for me compared to live. This is largely because bruising is easy to use for dark melee. So while the base damage buff makes up for the loss of bruising, the nerf to +damage effects hits soul drain and aao hard. I’m doing substantially less damage on beta. I don’t play tanks much so I personally don’t mind this stuff much, but my guess is it’ll get a negative reaction from a lot of people.

Can you post numbers to a static source like a Rikti pylon so they can have numbers to compare?

[honoraryorange]

12 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That 9% would mean a lot more after the change, and also to consider: against a +3 purple parch means bruise goes down to 13%, and you can’t spread bruise across multiple foes. I still will likely adjust things a bit more in the next patch. Need to crunch more numbers but might go got .85 instead of .75 for the self damage buff mod.

 

 

Wait what? I thought debuffs worked 100% up to +4?

[Captain Powerhouse]

7 minutes ago, honoraryorange said:

Wait what? I thought debuffs worked 100% up to +4?

No, debuffs have always been resisted by level difference, and part of the logic behind many debuffs being way stronger than the buffing equivalent.

[kenlon]

17 minutes ago, honoraryorange said:

Wait what? I thought debuffs worked 100% up to +4?

Nope. There are many reasons why bruising is and has always been a garbage mechanic, but this is a major contributor.

 

"These modifers apply to almost everything in combat: Debuff strength, Mez duration, Knockback magnitude, and Damage are all affected." https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch

 

 

[Major_Decoy]

26 minutes ago, kenlon said:

Nope. There are many reasons why bruising is and has always been a garbage mechanic, but this is a major contributor.

 

"These modifers apply to almost everything in combat: Debuff strength, Mez duration, Knockback magnitude, and Damage are all affected." https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch

 

 

I have read that bruising is currently effected by the purple patch, but I recall at one time that bruising was a power applied by the enemy to itself and thus ignored the purple patch.

[Bossk_Hogg]

4 hours ago, MrAxe said:

These changes seem to be terrible over all. My suggestion to wipe it all and start over. Make Tanks the ultimate in aggro management. Separate them by using what was meant to be their primary benefit. Make taunt hit more targets (say 7 for example), remove punch voke from brutes, give brutes say a 3 target taunt and then call it a day. Forget the mucking around with damage that's going to ruin the fun.

There are 2 primary tank AT's, 3 with kheldians. Nerfing the tanking ability of one of them isnt on the table. The difference should shake out about like corrupters vs defenders. 

[csr]

1 hour ago, Major_Decoy said:

I have read that bruising is currently effected by the purple patch, but I recall at one time that bruising was a power applied by the enemy to itself and thus ignored the purple patch.

At one point it was, but it was changed.  I don't know when.

[Super Atom]

The problem is not damage. Tanker issues start at IO's not before. They fall off when sets are brought into the mix so just adjusting damage values isn't gonna solve any problems. If you want to fix tankers focus on their tanking utility and not how much damage they put out. Nerfing brutes isn't the answer either as again this all starts with IO's. CoH is not balanced around IO's nor should it be.

[csr]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

[...] you can’t spread bruise across multiple foes.

You can't?  The last I checked on Live every foe I hit with my T1 was Bruised.  Or at least acquired red triangles.

[Captain Powerhouse]

54 minutes ago, csr said:

You can't?  The last I checked on Live every foe I hit with my T1 was Bruised.  Or at least acquired red triangles.

And how many foes can you hit before before it stars expiring on the first foe? My point is you can’t effectively boost AoE damage with bruise. 
 

Note: Titan Weapon t1 is a cone, but only bruises the primary target.