AOE buffs should work on caster.

[The_Warpact]

I have a mind therm troller, and it kills me when casting the buffs that it doesn't affect me also but, just my teammates.

Any idea why it was done this way? It should be changed.

Any cons on why it shouldn't?

[Dragon Crush]

Well, back when thermal first came out, it didn't have AoE buffs, it had single target shields that had to be cast over and over on everyone you wanted to buff, making them AoE was a QoL improvement. As for why they don't effect the caster, my understanding is balance concerns. Making some buff classes that durable that early would tip the scales pretty far in their favor.

[The_Warpact]

3 hours ago, Dragon Crush said:

Well, back when thermal first came out, it didn't have AoE buffs, it had single target shields that had to be cast over and over on everyone you wanted to buff, making them AoE was a QoL improvement. As for why they don't effect the caster, my understanding is balance concerns. Making some buff classes that durable that early would tip the scales pretty far in their favor.

It would be no different buffing another "less durable" teammate. The less durable teammates would still benefit and the caster would still be at a loss.

That is a balance issue, because, other teammates are better off and the caster is at a disadvantage. 

If anything melee toons would be the true benefactors of the buffs because of their def or res, once again tipping the scales in their favor. 

Still not seeing how its beneficial for the caster to not reap the benefits of their buffs.

[aethereal]

Defenders, controllers, corruptors, and masterminds should not be as durable as armored classes.  I don't know what's complicated about this.

[SeraphimKensai]

Honestly this is one of the main reasons I personally limit which buff sets I'll play as a defender or a corruptor. If I'm playing a buffer, I sometimes don't take the shields like on my Elec/cold troller ( I didn't have the room for them), or when I do take them, they are typically IO mules (my force field defender Deflection and Insulation shields get just the base slot for a LotG), I play Empath on a Mastermind.

 

What I wouldn't give for being able to hit myself with something like CM, Fort, SB, Bubbles, Sonic Shields, Therm, or Ice Shields. Realistically though, I've sort of resigned from the notion that I'll ever see self buffing (aside of maybe my own private server).

[Erydanus]

If you compare the quickly recastable shields from sets like cold and thermal to the team-wide buffs that Nature and Empathy get, there's a big difference. The team wide buffs are on a long timer, everyone has to hug the caster, but the caster benefits too. With the direct shields that used to be single target you can spam them any time, even on someone who was away from the group or is revived. Making them AoE at all was just a convenience QOL for the teams - it happened along with masterminds being able to upgrade their minions in AoE. They even extended it to speed boost and the damage portion (but not the mez resist part) of Increase Density. Fortitude and other single target direct buff powers didn't become team-wide either. Just the basic protections. Since you cannot target yourself, none of these powers given an AoE after the fact affects the caster, and in return the OGDevs didn't mess with them much at all (I think the end cost of mastermind equips was upped).  If not including the caster in the buffs allows the AoE without the power being rebalanced, I'm fine with that. I wouldn't want every shielding power to work like Wild Growth (90 sec effect, 225 second recharge).

[Razor Cure]

On 12/9/2019 at 10:51 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

If I'm playing a buffer, I sometimes don't take the shields like on my Elec/cold troller

Sad. How do you not have room for 2 shields? I dont understand people not taking ally buffs (unless its a pvp build, and even THEN, you could make a second, pve one!).

[Leogunner]

To put it bluntly: to give more buffs to the caster via their own powers would require the POWER (not specifically the strength of the buff, but the power as a whole) would have to be nerfed.

 

Consider a defensive AT that takes an armor power has to choose said power (sacrificing a power pick), only affects themselves with it, typically has a constant endurance cost AND are very specialized.  For example: Super Reflexes 1 toggle Focused Fighting costs 0.26 END/sec and only buffs melee def by 13.88% unenhanced , defense debuff resistance and confusion protection.

 

On the other hand, a support AT that uses a support power they choose to help their teammates, is often choosing something with substantial or varied effects and often at such a cheap cost, they might as well be free.  For example: Force Field's 1 buff Deflection Shield costs 7.8 END, only buffs def by 11.25% BUT buffs Smashing, Lethal, AND Melee defense by that slightly lower number....it also grants resistance to Toxic damage (30%)...and it does that for your entire team with one cast.

 

That's just a basic example.  There are support sets that cross the line with it's amount of self buffing (often with a nice helping of foe debuffing) that can make a defender unkillable.

 

You have to tread carefully when considering possible future avenues of improvement and not ignore the balance support powers must abide by.  If team AoE buffs suddenly effect yourself, your solo FF defender could have better defense than a SR character while also having the other benefits of the set like AoE repulse, AoE knockdown, AND be able to buff a whole team WHILE having mez protection.  Imagine if SR melees started complaining about having self-contained powers and wanting their armor toggles to have huge splash effects, debuffs and/or buffs.

 

Support powers aren't suppose to be your version of armor just like armor isn't supposed to be their version of team support.

 

EDIT: Lol I just looked at my own thread history after being away from the forums for about a month now.  I'm the initiator of some many threads getting locked lol.  I should probably put that in my post signature.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Leogunner

[SeraphimKensai]

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Sad. How do you not have room for 2 shields? I dont understand people not taking ally buffs (unless its a pvp build, and even THEN, you could make a second, pve one!).

Well if you ever see my Elec Cold troller in action, you wouldn't need the shields anyways as the mobs are continuously mezzed, slowed, and sapped to the point the character provides more than enough damage mitigation for a team.

 

That and a majority of players build towards defense softcap (at least in non incarnate content, incarnate content being rare to hit it's defense softcap solo), adding defense based shields is beneficial to someone who is not defense softcapped. To someone who is, they provide miniscule benefit, the one basically assisting when playing against an enemy type that debuffs defense.

 

So, my character provides a more steady, and less sporadic benefit to a team I'm on by mezzing, slowing, and sapping the targets thus minimize their chance to effect my teammates (and more importantly myself).

[Zepp]

The (all but self) buffs/heals should be reconsidered. Some may be best off as they are, but some of the older sets could use adjustments including the possible removal of (all but self) tags.

[Jeuraud]

8 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Sad. How do you not have room for 2 shields? I dont understand people not taking ally buffs

Buffs for a Troller or Corrupter are their secondary powers not their primary. Telling a Troller or Corrupter that they should take powers that do not benefit them is like telling a Scrapper or a Non-tanking Brute that they should take Taunt.

 

7 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Support powers aren't suppose to be your version of armor just like armor isn't supposed to be their version of team support.

Tell this to the Green Lanterns.

Support is a MMO Trinity thing, not a Super thing, hells it's not even an RPG thing. The only Supers I can think of that do support are Bubblers and the Mad Scientists who design tech for others, and I dont know any of them that are unable to buff themselves, or dont make tech for themselves.

 

 

In CoH Buffer/Debuffers were made to not be able to self-buff to fit into a MMO Trinity that the Devs then broke in there bumbling. Even if BDs could buff themselves they would still be the week link in the group because all the other ATs have their own self-buffs, that the BDs' buffs add to, not override.

As for soloing, will the ability to self-buff make BDs more powerful then say a Sentinel, another range AT that has a secondary that is all about self buffing?

 

The only purpose I can see for not allowing BDs to self-buff is to make it harder for them to solo thus keeping them chained to the group, which is the Trinity way, not the CoH way.

[Leogunner]

8 hours ago, Jeuraud said:

Tell this to the Green Lanterns.

Support is a MMO Trinity thing, not a Super thing, hells it's not even an RPG thing. The only Supers I can think of that do support are Bubblers and the Mad Scientists who design tech for others, and I dont know any of them that are unable to buff themselves, or dont make tech for themselves.

 

 

In CoH Buffer/Debuffers were made to not be able to self-buff to fit into a MMO Trinity that the Devs then broke in there bumbling. Even if BDs could buff themselves they would still be the week link in the group because all the other ATs have their own self-buffs, that the BDs' buffs add to, not override.

As for soloing, will the ability to self-buff make BDs more powerful then say a Sentinel, another range AT that has a secondary that is all about self buffing?

 

The only purpose I can see for not allowing BDs to self-buff is to make it harder for them to solo thus keeping them chained to the group, which is the Trinity way, not the CoH way.

CoH isn't/wasn't a Trinity.  It is a Quaternity.  It has always used DPS, Heal/Support, Tanking and Control as it's 4 corners.  The difference between it and your standard MMO is you can lean heavily on either 1 of the 4 to circumvent the 3 other corners completely (not many MMOs out there where you can stack as much tanking to not need a support...or stack enough DPS where you don't need anything else).

 

And I can think of a few support Superheroes besides bubblers or the standard healer or tech support person.  Maybe when I have more time to think and type.

[Haijinx]

10 hours ago, Jeuraud said:

 

Tell this to the Green Lanterns.

 

I think that invoking DC or Marvel characters is basically a superhero game's Godwin rule.  Neither DC nor Marvel have anything resembling a workable balance system.  Even the Baddass Normals are Geniuses with Photographic memories AND former Olympic Champions 

 

Green Lanterns are a particularly bad example since they are on the high end of the Mary Sue curve even for DC. 

 

 

    

[Haijinx]

The whole "Gather For buffs" could be improved though.  Make the range bigger or something.