Defenders, Controllers, Other powers

[DrRocket]

Just a proposal

 

    By now I have a variety of alts and have all classes represented at level 50, still working in getting all their incarnate slots to level 4, and IO set them to tip top.

 

    But when I play my defender, a lot of the "handicaps" to the class does not strike me as logical. I know that other classes such as the controllers for instance shares many of these issues as well.

 

    So I look at a Defender, and wow are they classy, and have real showy powers, and the name says it "Defender"

 

   When I buy the primary set of powers, which are usually are forms of Buffs, I sadly discovered I could not buff myself but only others. I figure that at one time this was done so Defenders would be more focused in playing other classes' "nurse" than any other activity. Made sense to an extent.  But explain to me, how a status effect helpless defender is of any support when any AOE effect takes them out of the picture? On the other hand with the new IO set and Incarnate system, the need for Defenders has greatly diminshed ( there is no more the posting of TF looking for healer and the entire team is waiting for a defender to sing up).  The price of being a group "nurse" was the deep penalty of them being able to solo as effectively and comfortably as the melee classes.

 

  So why not remove the "nurf" on Defender and other classes primaries? Why not let these previosuly regarded as support classes, to come to age and enjoy their full potential? Especially since thier "nurse" role is no longer truly needed?

 

  Lets talk about Defender secondaries, I am sure Controllers and others have their issues to.

 

  The Defender's secondary power set is acquired at full price, just like any other class acquires their powers, but it is the only class whose set performance is nurfed by 50%. I interpret this as I pay full price but only get half of what I paid for. Of course that is when I am in a team of 8, must be once again the punishing incentive to play a nurse doctrine. And when alone the nurf is only 20%. Once more, remove the nurf, let the Defender be respectable and fully able to contribute in a team and capable when alone.

 

  When I play my melee classes, I tend to play Scrappers incidentally, but I actually farm with a Fire/Axe tank quite well and effectively. I often hear Defenders moan about the pitiful damage they do, and laughed about it, and then thought, they can't even defend themselves when under attack, like say from an ambush which is often are spawned right over you. I stopped laughing. I for one, in a team would welcome the extra firepower from a Defender when doing thinkgs like AV fighting and Hami; also would be nice to be able to depend on them when it matters (there i snothing more demoralizing when my health is really low and the defender is status effected out of the fight). Incidentally as a Scrapper, I tend to hang back a bit and deal with all mobs that threaten the support staff, since they are unable to effeectively defend themselves, just think a cheap shot status effect to make sure they are helpless (especially after they already gobbled their break frees) and then murdered.

 

   For the Controller, you all got to give them some DPS, it is insane to try to solo with them. If anything why not give one or two shifts in damage to their control attacks? At low levels, it took me forever to kill a yellow mob, and by the time he finally when down, my enduranc eleves were at the fumes level.

 

Just a thought, I really want all classes to be as flexible and enjoy ease of play as much possible, think of this metric:

 

"All classes should be able to farm as well, but they all accomplish it differently"

 

Now go over each class, and redo their power sets that would enable them to accomplish it. For instance let the peviously regarded support classes enjoy MAG 4 inherent or through a common defensive power or a buff that works on them so they are not that totally vulnerable and can be heroic. Melee Mag protection tends to be 8 or better in the case of tanks.

 

Just a nice Christmas thought...

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by DrRocket

[Saiyajinzoningen]

so....forgive me for this possible oversimplification, but u want all AT's to become DPS?

[DrRocket]

40 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

so....forgive me for this possible oversimplification, but u want all AT's to become DPS?

Not quite, but they should have respectable DPS, Tankers for instance where not originally not intended to have dps as a balance for their awesome armor and protections. With the IO set and Incarnates my tanker can hardly be accused of not having moderate or better DPS now days.

 

What I seek is a balance with different shades of grey and not just black and white. Thus you have a range of DPS from decent to extraordianry, instead of nearly non-existent in the case of controllers.

 

The game has addressed resistance and defense for most classes thru the new epic set of powers for example, a move in the right direction of giving protection shades of grey.

 

Status protection is still mostly balck and white, I have proposed the lowest MAG protection for heroes/villains to be MAG 4, note that Scrapper types have 8 and Tankers like 12.

 

Just trying to expand a bit, if you have shades of grey, soon any class could actually farm for example, of course some classes would be much better than others, but at least any class could it in reason.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i have 3 brutes, 2 scrappers, a blaster, a dominator, a corrupter, peacebringer, and a MM all capable of farming 4x8 fairly easily. I could probably create a defender to do the same. Its all about the build bro. im not saying defenders could'nt use some love (god could they) but with a little creativity and a crapton of inf a dps defender can probably farm.

 

As far as mag protection goes we have acrobatics and thats a mag 2 i do think it should be a mag 3, or at least can accept enhancements that improves its efficacy. 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Saiyajinzoningen

[Sailboat]

Uh...farming is not the end-all, be-all goal of the game.

4 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Not quite, but they should have respectable DPS, Tankers for instance where not originally not intended to have dps as a balance for their awesome armor and protections. With the IO set and Incarnates my tanker can hardly be accused of not having moderate or better DPS now days.

 

What I seek is a balance with different shades of grey and not just black and white. Thus you have a range of DPS from decent to extraordianry, instead of nearly non-existent in the case of controllers.

Defenders DO have "moderate" damage.  A Defender's ranged damage scalar is 65% of a Blaster's.  And when soloing, they get a 30% damage buff from their inherent.  That leaves them doing (if my math is right) 1.3 * 0.65= 84.5% of a Blaster's damage (when soloing).  Since a Blaster is top-of-the-line for ranged damage, I submit that 84.5% is at least "decent" or "moderate."

 

Secondly, it's not possible to persuade humans that "a range of DPS from decent to extraordinary" exists.  Due to human nature, whatever the bottom number is, it will always be considered bad, not decent, BECAUSE it's the bottom number.  I've played games where one unit does 2 damage and another does 1 damage and is derided as having "the worst" damage even though it's literally only one increment lower.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Sailboat

[Dragon Crush]

Add to the fact that with how buffs/debuffs work in this game, every defender in the group is a force multiplier, and adding a second defender/controller/corrupter/MM will usually make the group do more damage overall than adding a second blaster, regardless of the damage they do solo.

 

Also, it's "nerf" as in Nerf brand foam darts/toys,  not "nurf".

[Riverdusk]

7 hours ago, Sailboat said:

Uh...farming is not the end-all, be-all goal of the game.

Defenders DO have "moderate" damage.  A Defender's ranged damage scalar is 65% of a Blaster's.  And when soloing, they get a 30% damage buff from their inherent.  That leaves them doing (if my math is right) 1.3 * 0.65= 84.5% of a Blaster's damage (when soloing).  Since a Blaster is top-of-the-line for ranged damage, I submit that 84.5% is at least "decent" or "moderate."

 

Secondly, it's not possible to persuade humans that "a range of DPS from decent to extraordinary" exists.  Due to human nature, whatever the bottom number is, it will always be considered bad, not decent, BECAUSE it's the bottom number.  I've played games where one unit does 2 damage and another does 1 damage and is derided as having "the worst" damage even though it's literally only one increment lower.

Actually defender range scale is .65 and blaster is 1.125, so more like 58% of a blaster's, unless they changed things since Paragon Wiki's shown values.  Also the math doesn't quite work out that simple once you add in enhancement or other damage buffs that are common.  That 30% damage buff is to that low defender base damage, not enhanced damage.  The 30% helps, but it does fade somewhat once the blaster puts in even the standard +95% worth of damage enhancements and pulls much further ahead with their much higher base.  By my calculations solo with the +30 Vigilance bonus defenders are doing more like 67% of a blaster once they both slot the standard +95% worth of damage enhancements in an attack.

 

Things get more complicated though as then you add in potential debuffs/buffs the defender might have, procs, etc.

 

I agree with your first statement completely though.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Riverdusk

[HelenCarnate]

2 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Actually defender range scale is .65 and blaster is 1.125, so more like 58% of a blaster's, unless they changed things since Paragon Wiki's shown values.  Also the math doesn't quite work out that simple once you add in enhancement or other damage buffs that are common.  That 30% damage buff is to that low defender base damage, not enhanced damage.  The 30% helps, but it does fade somewhat once the blaster puts in even the standard +95% worth of damage enhancements and pulls much further ahead with their much higher base.  By my calculations solo with the +30 Vigilance bonus defenders are doing more like 67% of a blaster once they both slot the standard +95% worth of damage enhancements in an attack.

 

Things get more complicated though as then you add in potential debuffs/buffs the defender might have, procs, etc.

 

I agree with your first statement completely though.

Totally correct about the buffs/debuffs.  In many cases you can reduce regen and resists enough that some defender combos can take out GMs faster than a blaster.  So by simply giving defenders more damage, that would cause those combos to be even more deadly and it would end up being city of Defenders with everyone the same min/max build.

[Zepp]

Defender damage is fine, but some AoE Friendlies (does not affect self) or heal/buff friendly (does not affect self) powers may need to be reconsidered.

[Razor Cure]

Regardless of teh many arguments put forward..one thing I agree with is giving Trollers (maybe not doms) a damage buff on their ST hold. Sure, then alreadd have containment, but slotting that hold for damage is less useful. Look at ST holds in pvp as an example.

[Lost Ninja]

While buffing damage output for defenders with primaries that don't especially boost their damage output could be good. Wouldn't it break on those with primaries that do boost their damage (either by buffing the defender or debuffing the enemy? A rad defender with even corrupter level offence would be broken. So it would be better to address FF & Sonic (et al) than a flat increase to the secondaries.