Fixing Martial Arts

[WindDemon21]

MA can be a very fun set with it's animations, but it has some caveats that really have it underperforming. The biggest one is Eagles Claw. The set has so many Single target attacks, that it doesn't need one that is basically at the same stats as the others (crane, cak, cobra). It's stun is too short of a duration for one, but it also has one of the worst DPA due to it's long animation/low damage. It should have it's recharge set to about 16 seconds, it's activation should be reduced a little, and it's damage should be increased to match where it should be at. It could even have a little splash damage like sky splitter in staff does for tankers, but that's something that would be hopeful but not expected.

 

There is also issues with crane/cak/cobra strike. For their damage/rech their cast time should be closer to 1.4ish seconds not the 1.67s they are now. They tend to linger a little bit for no reason past their actual animation, mostly cobra and crane kick, cak isn't as bad. Also given the sets low and late aoe Dragons Tail should really be set at least one or two power picks sooner. Crane kick's animation should really be a small cone like golden dragonfly/headsplitter since your kick basically "goes through" multiple enemies due to it's high force, it would just make sense and help the low aoe out a bit in the set.

 

Like burst as well, dragon's tail's radius is broken. it's supposed to be 8ft, however if you stand near an enemy and close in just to the point where you hit them with storm kick, which is 7ft, if you use dragon's tail at that same distance, it will not hit them, meaning that it's radius is actually 6ft, or possibly even 5ft, which effects the power a great deal. (honestly all pbaoe attacks/powers should be at least 10ft in radius, that change was never needed when the old devs did it and should be fixed, it's bad enough they're all limited to 10 targets instead of 16 which is also an issue but at 10ft even there isn't usually 16 enemies within range so we can *barely* ignore that for now as that would be in a whole other thread on it's own).

 

Crippling Axe Kick is much better than it used to be now, but just to point out that unlike the equal power in street justice, that it seems like a bug that it doesn't accept defense debuff sets.

 

I would lastly state that it feels like thunder kick and more-so storm kick should be on 2.5/5s recharges instead of 3/6. Mostly making it easier to skip thunder kick and using storm kick as the fast-filler which almost anyone does except tankers who are forced into thunder kick. but 6s vs 5 may sound small but it would be just that little bit with some recharge to where it would fill in that filler attack better.

[Haijinx]

I don't think there is that kind of animation support currently available.

 

Eagle's Claw already got an animation shave.  It used to have  an extra flippie do at the end.  Its pretty much on a par with other T9s of MAs vintage.

 

As you mention the set has lots of st attacks without it.  That's because Cobra Strike was turned into a really good damage attack. 

 

Just don't take EC if you think its too slow.

 

I've never noticed an issue with DTs range.  It seems to hit more than the 6 foot TAOE Spinning Strike in SJ at least. 

 

Changing recharge only helps at low levels, ironically an area where MA shines if you take crane kick and cobra strike both.  I think Broad Sword's T1 and T2 are 4 and 8 secs?  

 

Lowering recharge would mean lowering damage which would be very unpopular, and hurt late game, since SK is important there.

 

MA got several improvements over the years.  Tbh the set that's been waiting the longest for some balancing is Broad Sword. 

 

 

[WindDemon21]

"Of it's vintage" just cause it's old doesn't mean it has the right stats. But i'm fine with the animation time, but it's damage/recharge needs increased to give it the proper dpa/dps it should have. A tier 9 attack shoudln't ever want to be skipped, unless i'm forgetting something it would make it the only melee attack set where you would want to skip the tier 9. It's animation/kapow is a big reason to play MA and the fun of it. The power just needs it's damage/rech tuned to where it's worth the animation time is all. Even if they didn't make cobra strike an actual attack, it would still have the same issue.

 

Street justice's spinning strike is actually a taoe, not pbaoe so they don't work the same. but you can even test it yourself, it's range is bugged, and it's very noticeable if you look and greatly affects it's ability to hit more targets in a mob.

 

BS and MA aren't even comparible. BS has more cones, -defense, more knockdowns/ups, and parry. It's much better off than MA. But it should never be said "just play bs then instead". MA just needs some tweaks to fix it as I have suggested above. Just because it "got improvements" (mostly just cobra strike with scrappers) doesn't mean it's where it should be at, especially the biggest one being eagle's claw.

[Haijinx]

MA generally does better than BS in most comparisons.  Pylon, Galaxy Brains testing efforts, DPA spreadsheets, etc.  

 

And its got a buff coming for CAK  so it can slot a -resist proc.

 

Eagles Claw provides an AOE boost if you hit it before DT by increasing crit chance.   Better than it being a tiny cone. 

 

 If I was going to tell you "play x instead" it wouldn't be BS, it would be WM.  WM is just plain better than MA. 

 

I brought up BS because it needs fixed before MA does   If we are going to fix old sets, that is. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Haijinx

[Leogunner]

Some extra thoughts on utility:

 

What if Eagle's Claw was a 60ft ranged teleport attack?  Make it so the impact+backflip would be near instant but the portion of the animation before that is happening before you teleport.  Technically, it's a "leap up" and then BOP! backflip but teleporting is how the mechanic would work.

 

Crippling Axe Kick, I always though, should have some kind of special effect if used on a foe that is knocked down.  Imagine if you could apply -special (lowering a foe's ability to buff, debuff and mez) if you knocked them down before crippling them with an axe kick?

 

And I always though Focus Chi could have something like a +mez effect on it that either increases the duration of *specifically* the MA attacks' mez greatly and slightly boosts durations of other mez you dish out for its duration.

[Haijinx]

Have to admit turning Eagles Claw into a Teleport would be cool as hell.  

 

Jump up ... Tp... attack .... then when you land hit Dragons Tail. 

 

 

[Microcosm]

The stalker version has no aoes... That should for sure be changed.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Microcosm said:

The stalker version has no aoes... That should for sure be changed.

Would be cool if you could pick Placate OR Dragons tail.

 

Placate OR The Lotus Drops, etc

 

But yeah I have a Vet 15 MA stalker.  Great ST and exemps down awesome, but my SJ stalker is just plain  better.

 

[VileTerror]

Back when they gutted Cobra Strike's Stun for more bland damage, I had written a proposal, and I figure I'll repeat it again now:  

Give Martial Arts its own form of Containment.  

I would happily have Cobra Strike reverted to its original guaranteed Stun, and add a feature which either increases the chance of Crits, or flat-out increases the Damage dealt to Targets who are Stunned for all the other attacks in the set.  Hell, bump up the chance for Stun in the other attacks while you're at it!
Basically a wombo-combo; Stun the target to get them to essentially drop their defenses, and then capitalize on that moment of weakness to really put some OOMPH in to the strikes.  Thematic as hell, and returns Martial Arts to the moderate-damage-but-high-control beauty it was originally designed as.

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Some extra thoughts on utility:

 

What if Eagle's Claw was a 60ft ranged teleport attack?  Make it so the impact+backflip would be near instant but the portion of the animation before that is happening before you teleport.  Technically, it's a "leap up" and then BOP! backflip but teleporting is how the mechanic would work.

 

 

 

Do it. DO IT.

 

Honestly this is the best idea ever. There is a power like this in Savage Melee, and it is so much fun. Would love it in MA.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, VileTerror said:

Back when they gutted Cobra Strike's Stun for more bland damage, I had written a proposal, and I figure I'll repeat it again now:  

Give Martial Arts its own form of Containment.  

I would happily have Cobra Strike reverted to its original guaranteed Stun, and add a feature which either increases the chance of Crits, or flat-out increases the Damage dealt to Targets who are Stunned for all the other attacks in the set.  Hell, bump up the chance for Stun in the other attacks while you're at it!
Basically a wombo-combo; Stun the target to get them to essentially drop their defenses, and then capitalize on that moment of weakness to really put some OOMPH in to the strikes.  Thematic as hell, and returns Martial Arts to the moderate-damage-but-high-control beauty it was originally designed as.

Why do you need guaranteed stun with today's IO reinforced survivability?

 

Anything you could stun with it cant really hurt you.  

 

 

[VileTerror]

Because I don't have much in the way of IOs at all.  I still have immense difficulty with understanding how many people seem to think it's the standard mode of operation for all players.

[Haijinx]

19 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

Because I don't have much in the way of IOs at all.  I still have immense difficulty with understanding how many people seem to think it's the standard mode of operation for all players.

Hmmm.  I probably can't relate. As soon as IOs came out I have used them as liberally as possible within my budget. 

 

And thus survivability of a scrapper independent of primary "controls" beyond a little knockdown has never been much of a consideration.

 

I personally always liked the CS change, since CAK looks goofy IMO. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

What if Eagle's Claw was a 60ft ranged teleport attack?

So ... a Shield Charge(-ish) attack power ... except you kick with a foot instead of whack with a shield ... and it's a single target attack still?

 

Wouldn't mind turning Eagle's Claw into a "gap closer" attack that way ...

[Galaxy Brain]

I would like two things...

 

Well, 3 with the teleport dive kick version of Eagle ... or what if it did bonus damage if you jumped then used the power and became like an actual diving kick with an AoE?

 

Anywho, the two things I would love to see is a mini containment / combo system as mentioned above as well as a change to Focus Chi.

 

1) I have a soft spot for MA as a ma/regen was my first ever scrapper. In my testing for the melee sets I used it the best I could with what limited AoE you are afforded, and being able to kung fu the tar out of the bosses with the impeccable ST chains. EC to DT is decent, but other sets have far better AoE. The ST damage is great, but other sets have much better ST chains and a handful of the MA powers have identical DPA / Damage. This makes the choice of which to use really based on the secondary effects, which while nice are kinda eh.

 

What is cool is the secret karate technique found in Eagles Claw. There is a hidden, very short duration crit chance boost or damage boost depending on the AT when you use it that lasts just long enough to boost your next, immediate attack. Why not expand upon this concept for the other MA moves? Maybe the T1 gives you an end discount, Cobra Strike gives a large amount of +dmg only for the next attack, crane kick boosts recharge, or whatever. Just something to where you can think of the secondary effects on your enemy and on yourself when choosing moves to string together.

 

2) I had a for fun thread on this, but the Build Ups that are not called build up... bug me. Focus Chi is unique to MA only yet has the generic effect of being a build up clone. I'm not sure what to add to it, but literally anything that could make it more unique to MA would be cool. Make it also boost +special? Let's be imaginative!

[KelvinKole]

12 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

2) I had a for fun thread on this, but the Build Ups that are not called build up... bug me. Focus Chi is unique to MA only yet has the generic effect of being a build up clone. I'm not sure what to add to it, but literally anything that could make it more unique to MA would be cool. Make it also boost +special? Let's be imaginative!

Upshot from the tactical arrow set has a nice little bonus to recharge that I really like. That could work here. I wonder if there is a way to decrease animation times while under its effect. That could be super fun for martial arts. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by KelvinKole

[Haijinx]

Maybe it could add stun% to help out people who wanted more control like VileTerror.

 

Hit Focus Chi and stun gets +25% chance  (pve)

 

MA does have 3 stun attacks. 

 

Would do something, but would not really effect high end IO builds at all power-creep wise. 

[oedipus_tex]

Check out the power Feral Charge in the Dominator Savage Assault set. It does exactly the teleport-to-enemy-and-then-attack thing, except as an AoE instead of a single target (however it still takes single target sets, which is interesting.)

 

Here's a video of how Feral Charge works.

 

 

 

Honestly a power like this makes so much sense in Martial Arts because of the knockback kick. You could kick them backwards then chase them down.

Edited January 22, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Redlynne]

16 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

2) I had a for fun thread on this, but the Build Ups that are not called build up... bug me. Focus Chi is unique to MA only yet has the generic effect of being a build up clone. I'm not sure what to add to it, but literally anything that could make it more unique to MA would be cool. Make it also boost +special? Let's be imaginative!

Well ... you did ask for it ... literally ...

 

 

 

Proposal.

 

Change Focus Chi from being a +Damage +ToHit Build Up clone into being ... a Grant Power: -Resistance debuff enabler for all your Martial Arts attack powers (which would prevent it from stacking, just like with Achilles' Heel debuffs).

 

So instead of "doing more damage" because Focus Chi makes you do more damage ... instead ... you "do more damage" because Focus Chi makes $Targets you hit with Martial Arts attacks "vulnerable" to the damage you're doing to them.

 

Just as a matter of eyeballing the situation, I'm thinking that a -50% Resistance debuff would probably throughput around the same damage scaling performance as a +100% damage buff under most circumstances (although there will be edge cases, of course).  If necessary, limit the Resistance debuff to only debuffing Smashing Resistance (since Martial Arts attacks only do Smashing damage natively and require procs to add other damage types).

 

The idea is to reach for similar outcomes via alternative means.

[WindDemon21]

Reducing animation time is a coding issue I'm sure that cant be done outside of base code. Ie not slottable/buffable.

 

There are a lot of fun suggestions I'm hearing, but they're all secondary effects. The main issue I wanted to start this thread for was that eagles claws damage was too low for its cast time, and too similar to 3 other attacks statewide in the set. It should have a longer rech like 16 seconds, and have a higher damage to match its animation time. For having to wait till tier 9 to get it, and for how cool, but how LONG it takes to activate, it definitely needs a damage boost.

[VileTerror]

I really like the proposed change to Focus Chi granting increased Stun Chance instead of just +Dam/+To-Hit.
Couple that with making Eagle's Claw a guaranteed Crit on a Stunned Target AND a short-range Teleport Attack, and I think we have a winner.

 

Grants the player some options:  

Do you start with Focus Chi and use Eagle's Claw as your opener to close the gap?

Or do you run in the old fashioned way, pop Focus Chi, double-whammy a Cobra Strike and a Thunder Kick with guaranteed Stun to guarantee your Eagle's Claw does Crit Damage?

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Well ... you did ask for it ... literally ...

 

 

 

Proposal.

 

Change Focus Chi from being a +Damage +ToHit Build Up clone into being ... a Grant Power: -Resistance debuff enabler for all your Martial Arts attack powers (which would prevent it from stacking, just like with Achilles' Heel debuffs).

 

So instead of "doing more damage" because Focus Chi makes you do more damage ... instead ... you "do more damage" because Focus Chi makes $Targets you hit with Martial Arts attacks "vulnerable" to the damage you're doing to them.

 

Just as a matter of eyeballing the situation, I'm thinking that a -50% Resistance debuff would probably throughput around the same damage scaling performance as a +100% damage buff under most circumstances (although there will be edge cases, of course).  If necessary, limit the Resistance debuff to only debuffing Smashing Resistance (since Martial Arts attacks only do Smashing damage natively and require procs to add other damage types).

 

The idea is to reach for similar outcomes via alternative means.

No, no, definitely not. One this would exclude a lot of pool and epic attacks. Two you would have to have, especially for the aoe which is most reasons you use the build up on teams, very high recharge and accuracy to get effective use out of it.

 

I would honestly prefer something closer to the blaster martial power that stacks the damage and to hit all the time. Kinda like fury/defiance but with to hit. So start with like an always on auto of like 30% damage and 10% to hit, and add another 10% damage and 2% to hit for each attack up to a max stacking of 5, each individual attack buff lasting 15 or 20 seconds.

 

I wont get into the whole dark melee set issues, but this would consistently as an auto that always boosts, make MA the king of ST damage like it should be given it's aoe, and damage typing issues.

[Haijinx]

I don't think I support MA being the Single Target damage king.   

 

That should probably be Fire Melee?  MA seems like it might actually be ahead of FM.

 

But right now its TW.  I definitely don't see buffing MA to TW level as viable.  

 

Damage type is irrelevant.  It isnt part of balancing any sets at this time, MA shouldn't get special treatment. 

 

Yesterday it was Ninja Blade that wanted special treatment for being Lethal dmg. 

  

[Outrider_01]

Gonna throw out some opinions, but it has been a long time since playing my MA/Reng scrapper.

16 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Crane kick's animation should really be a small cone like golden dragonfly/headsplitter since your kick basically "goes through" multiple enemies due to it's high force, it would just make sense and help the low aoe out a bit in the set.

MA is a single target set.  A single cone doesn't make sense, the two sets you mention are different from MA such as the fact BS and Katana have a +def attack while MA has soft control in stuns and knock back/down.

 

16 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Like burst as well, dragon's tail's radius is broken. it's supposed to be 8ft, however if you stand near an enemy and close in just to the point where you hit them with storm kick, which is 7ft, if you use dragon's tail at that same distance, it will not hit them, meaning that it's radius is actually 6ft, or possibly even 5ft, which effects the power a great deal.

It is working as intended, it is an AoE.  Has knockdown from what I remember so its not really a high damage attack as it is soft control.

Can it use a buff?  Sure but it is not broken.  Something to consider is hitbox size, MM bump the me around and a guy mentioned in a farm that smaller characters make it easier to kill; makes sense as I have seen baddies run 180 degrees around me to attack.

16 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

that change was never needed when the old devs did it and should be fixed, it's bad enough they're all limited to 10 targets instead of 16 which is also an issue but at 10ft even there isn't usually 16 enemies within range

Nearly all melee attacks are capped at 5 and 10, 16 steps on the toes of squishes who special in AoE destruction.

 

16 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Crippling Axe Kick is much better than it used to be now, but just to point out that unlike the equal power in street justice, that it seems like a bug that it doesn't accept defense debuff sets.

MA and Street Justice are not the same.  I only glanced at Street but it seems more like a debuff cripple set vs damage and soft control.

15 hours ago, Haijinx said:

If I was going to tell you "play x instead" it wouldn't be BS, it would be WM.  WM is just plain better than MA.

Mace is so much fun. 😆

15 hours ago, Leogunner said:

What if Eagle's Claw was a 60ft ranged teleport attack? 

No thank you. Range port attacks are a pain in the ass.

14 hours ago, VileTerror said:

Give Martial Arts its own form of Containment.

MA is not a controller.  And some of the suggestions you have would be combo set ups, MA is too old of a set to be changed like that.  Straight debuff application would be easier.

12 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

Upshot from the tactical arrow set has a nice little bonus to recharge that I really like.

MA is not a combo set.  Would require a complete revamp and balance, straight debuffs  or stunts ect are easier to apply.

11 hours ago, Redlynne said:

If necessary, limit the Resistance debuff to only debuffing Smashing Resistance

-Resist is straight debuff all types, just as much as Build Up is +Damage all types.  Longer lasting +damage buff (maybe 20 seconds) with less bonus would be a better option

 

11 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

It should have a longer rech like 16 seconds

Well, 16 might mean nothing when IOed out.  I got a build from a guy that turns Foot Stomp from 20 seconds to 4...building my own to see  😁

11 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I would honestly prefer something closer to the blaster martial power that stacks the damage and to hit all the time. Kinda like fury/defiance but with to hit. So start with like an always on auto of like 30% damage and 10% to hit, and add another 10% damage and 2% to hit for each attack up to a max stacking of 5, each individual attack buff lasting 15 or 20 seconds.

And that's why you play a blaster or brute.  Steps on their inherent and you are asking for a combo build up set which MA is not and requires a complete over haul.

11 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I wont get into the whole dark melee set issues,

I agree on Dark, but its selling point is mainly the the exotic damage type.  The utility powers I dislike, to many in my opinion.

10 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I don't think I support MA being the Single Target damage king.   

 

That should probably be Fire Melee?  MA seems like it might actually be ahead of FM.

It is a single target king, straight damage.  Fire came along later and the dot component as well as the set being fire damage typed is a bonus.

 

You can't have 2 kings, but you can have a rival attempting for the crown 😀

10 hours ago, Haijinx said:

  I definitely don't see buffing MA to TW level as viable.  

 

Damage type is irrelevant.  It isnt part of balancing any sets at this time, MA shouldn't get special treatment. 

Curious, what is the issue/problem with TW? Good or bad, OP or lacking?

 

Damage type is an issue, if you factor in resist or AoE capability.  Highly resist means it is near lethal, but doesn't have that -def to compensate.  If AoE, even resisted isn't much of an issue if you are clobbering several baddies and added it up 

[ShardWarrior]

I feel MA is perfectly fine as is and is in no need of "fixing".

17 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

The set has so many Single target attacks

This is because MA is meant to be a single target set.  As for the stuns, they are meant to work in concert with one another, not alone.  Use TK > CS > EC and you will have everything short of AVs in perma stun.  Once you have them stunned, they are very easily contained from doing the drunk walk with CAK. 

 

The teleporting kick animation exists in CO and at least to me, it looks silly.