An idea for a Confront fix...

[Wavicle]

I figure, there are now ranged attacks in the pools, so pulling is available to everyone at level 4.

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Replacement said:

No, not terrible.  A bit cottage-y, but not terribly so.  It would remove a pulling tool but clearly, no one's using it for that anyway.

 

--

 

As always, this is something where I feel the need to mention: We are serious enough about this that down the road, it could be tossed onto the test server to find out.  If it's found to be upping top-performing builds on Test, we reel it back.  If that means reeling all the way back to what's currently Live? So be it.

Y'know, even without the Placate effect...JUST making it an Ally Targeted taunt ability would make it better.  See an ally losing health?  Click on THEM and hit Confront.  You taunt the mobs attacking them, not the mobs they are attacking.

[Lazarillo]

13 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Here's an idea no one will like:

Change the name of the power to, off the top of my head, Strategize (someone else can come up with a better name).

If you target an enemy the power will function as Placate currently does.

If you target an ally the power will taunt the top three mobs on that ally's threat list.

Correct, I don't like it.  My Scrappers are supposed to be trying to aggro the "loose" enemies.  If anything, I could maybe see it working the opposite way: target an enemy to taunt it, target an ally to offload your aggro onto said ally, so that you can sort of pass the baton to more survivable teammates, but that may be too...grief-able.  Taking aggro away from an an ally sounds like more of a Tanker thing.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Lazarillo

[Wavicle]

How about this:

 

If you target an enemy it works as it currently does and taunts ONE enemy.

If you target an ally it taunts the THREE enemies who hate that ally the most.

Edited January 27, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Lazarillo]

2 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

How about this:

 

If you target an enemy it works as it currently does and taunts ONE enemy.

If you target an ally it taunts the THREE enemies who hate that ally the most.

That's more of a straight buff, so it's hard to complain per se, but it still feels less like something a Scrapper should be doing and more like what a Tanker wants.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

That's more of a straight buff, so it's hard to complain per se, but it still feels less like something a Scrapper should be doing and more like what a Tanker wants.

I know what you mean, but I think to observe the cottage rule and not make scrappers OP it has to remain a power that lets you help allies but that does not benefit either your offense or defense.

[Wavicle]

If you can think of a better way to do that I'm all ears...

[Wavicle]

Maybe since Brutes were nerfed (very slightly) in the latest update people will off-tank with Scrappers more and Confront will rise in popularity...but I doubt it.

[Redlynne]

25 minutes ago, Replacement said:

certainly there are bad/pointless powers in other powersets, but there isn't an AT-level "schtick" you can expect to see in every one of an AT's sets that are all as skipable and pointless as the rest

This sounds very much like Stalker Placate ... and kind of for the same reasons.

Funny that.

[Galaxy Brain]

Brutes get punchvoke, Scrappers get the ability to run up and hit a guy hard enough to draw aggro usually.

 

Stalker placate is skipped for much the same reason, in today's game a ST power is not that valuable when it doesnt have key effects. 

[Wavicle]

Well, Stalker placate imo has an easy fix, make the version every Stalker gets an AoE that is still autohit.  Call it Vanish. Get rid of the AoE one in Ninjitsu and give them a passive with res, kb protect, and a little +end.

Still doesn't help Scrappers lol.

[Wavicle]

It might have to be either keep it as is or throw out the cottage rule in this instance.  Scrappers perhaps were originally designed to be off tanks, that's why they were given Confront.  But it turns out the way the game turned out they are not off tanks they are pure dps.  Perhaps in order to make it a useful power it actually has to be radically altered.

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, sacredlunatic said:

Perhaps in order to make it a useful power it actually has to be radically altered.

Except, as previously noted, it is useful, and fulfills a function you can't get anywhere else in Scrapper sets, while also demanding no extra enhancements.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Lazarillo

[Wavicle]

Then why do only 1% of scrappers take it?

[Lazarillo]

2 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Then why do only 1% of scrappers take it?

They are unenlightened.  Forgive them, for they know not what they do.

[Replacement]

37 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

This sounds very much like Stalker Placate ... and kind of for the same reasons.

Funny that.

Unoptimized players like me grab Placate.  I don't care to get into a debate about whether or not it's useful and that's the problem: there is a debate to be had.  

 

Excepting Lazarillo, here, no one's really saying "oh, I always not only grab Confront, I use it entirely for game mechanical reasons."

 

No.  At most, you get some oddballs and Roleplayers, and it is never the optimal pick.

[Galaxy Brain]

Isnt there something to be said that you recognize that it is unoptomized to grab it?

[nihilii]

13 hours ago, macskull said:

Don't forget that there's a 75% range debuff on the target affected by Confront. Not as useful as the AoE version of the same that Tankers and Brutes get, but it's still something.

^ Important point the discussion about Confront being useless is missing, IMHO.

 

Confront is an all-in-one solution for Lord Recluse in the STF (you hovertank him at max range). In a more general sense, coupled with flying or immobilizes it can allow you to tank stuff your mitigation shouldn't allow you to tank.

It's extremely situational because progression has gotten so fast we live in the end game, and the game has other options to tackle the same problems, options that are good enough in most cases. But there's uses for the power.

I'd put it in the exact same spot as Placate. Placate can help you during leveling. At max level it can be a specific pick if you want to solo 2+ AVs at once, letting you focus on your target and tell the others to take a hike. It's fairly useful for soloing the Tin Mage TF for example, as Goliaths aggro on you the moment you step in the city area (and resume aggroing even if you die/zone out).

Objectively the powers could be made better and more useful in a variety of cases, no question about it. Outright replacing them (and removing their current utility) would be a shame.

Edited January 27, 2020 by nihilii

[tidge]

9 hours ago, Redlynne said:

It is very successful at doing what it's supposed to do.

The "problem" is that people put a remarkably low priority on the power doing what it does.

 

So here's a different way that Single Target Taunts (all of them!) could be modified.

Give them the "Jolting Chain" treatment ... except instead of doing damage, the power just Taunts instead.

 

In another thread, this was one of my suggestions for a 6th IO for a hypothetical (Superior) Taunt set, similar to the Contagious Confusion proc in the Superior Confuse. It might not be as useful for the AoE Taunts, but the philosophy of such a hypothetical set (with 5 other non-proc pieces) wouldn't be radically different than many other ATO/Purple sets.

[siolfir]

12 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

Widows have them, and you can get one from the power pools.

The Widow version is even worse than the Scrapper version, because it doesn't even have the -range. Also, the single target taunt in the Presence pool was replaced with a single target Placate, though: it's now a single target Placate, 15' AoE Taunt, single target Fear, 20' PBAoE Fear, all of which require to-hit checks, and a nice buff for using up two power picks on the set mules that the rest of the pool contains.

 

11 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

Y'know, even without the Placate effect...JUST making it an Ally Targeted taunt ability would make it better.  See an ally losing health?  Click on THEM and hit Confront.  You taunt the mobs attacking them, not the mobs they are attacking.

To work this way it would - as you seem to state - only be used as an ally "buff" power, since the assist code would otherwise target through your teammate to their target. I also don't see it making Confront any more popular than it is now, and as mentioned earlier I think that if there was going to be effort put into stripping the aggro of of a teammate that it would (and should) probably go to Tankers.

 

Addressing the "higher critical chance against the target" option: Placate animates in even less time (1.5 sec) than Confront does (1.67 sec) and offers a much higher critical chance on the next attack for Stalkers (and Night Widows), but it often gets skipped because usually the critical damage doesn't make up for the animation time.

 

I could see throwing in a non-stacking to-hit debuff (they're mad, they swing wildly!), but that's pushing the limits of being thematic and still won't get anyone to take Confront that wasn't likely to in the first place.

[Haijinx]

Confront only exists to make some of the sword sets look cool.

 

And that is fine. 

 

 

[MunkiLord]

What if we drop Confront altogether and replace it with Super Strength and Stone Melee?

Edited January 28, 2020 by MunkiLord
typo

[Wavicle]

I got it!  Make Confront give both the caster and the target a big Run Speed and Fly Speed buff for 5 seconds, then AFTER 5 seconds the target gets a Run Speed and Fly Speed Debuff for 5 seconds. Done.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Ive already gone on record before in other threads that Im one of those who feel the whole idea of taunt tanking is a flawed and outdated mechanic just as tank and spank herding is an out dated form of game play that needs to be left in the past.

 

So imo while it is basically going against the cottage rule, imo for scrappers at least the idea of them having any kind of taunt/aggro magnet power should be thrown out the window.

 

Ive played and capped no few scrappers in my time, alongside brutes, and stalkers. No surprise I dont really bother with tanks because I dont want to be treated as a meat shield first and foremost. Having done so, I can actually say with a fair amount of confidence scrappers in general do need something. Just because the meta optimal scrapper power combos create a very high roof for their potential, many power set combos are well known to be at best passable and many being a pita to play till you reach the high end of the build.

 

One of the biggest reasons for the non meta pairings to struggle is a lack of self sustain, just as blasters suffered for many years. Lets take SR as a classic example, pair it with Dark Melee for the utility of its drain attacks and SR is godly, any other and its barely passable and mostly a trial of suffering till you are high lvl and well slotted and setted to remove its lack of end recovery and self healing.

 

IMO that is the issue and area that a power change alteration should be zeroing in on. Just about every scrapper primary could have their confront replaced with something maybe like a reverse victory rush, the bigger and badder your upcoming foe, the bigger the buff to recovery and regen for the non dark melee sets, and for dark melee maybe a variant that instead debuffs things like move speed and recharge speed.

[Replacement]

10 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

I got it!  Make Confront give both the caster and the target a big Run Speed and Fly Speed buff for 5 seconds, then AFTER 5 seconds the target gets a Run Speed and Fly Speed Debuff for 5 seconds. Done.

I'd settle for just a temp speed buff to player as something of a gap-closer helper.