A Minimalist Take on a Support/Melee AT

[VileTerror]

You should totally make that a different thread, HelBlaiz.  It's kind of tangential in this one, but I totally want to throw my support behind something like that.  Details to follow if it gets its own thread.

[HelBlaiz]

I don't want to write up all that on my phone, but I'll see about making a post once I'm at my computer. In the meantime, I think the biggest hurdle for how to make a support/melee class is deciding on their scalings. I'd personally love for the AT to have powerful enough support scalings to be the main draw. The only reason the AT should have "better" damage numbers compared to a Defender should be more because of Melee sets usually having a slightly higher base damage to compensate for range.

[VileTerror]

I agree wholeheartedly!

If Support is the Primary, then it should be damned-near close to Defender scaling.  If not all the time, then on-average with whatever sort of Inherent or ATO effects get established.

[Replacement]

@VileTerror That's the sort of thing that's making me think "Power Boost, and on a decent cooldown" would be an interesting Taunt replacement.  Like, if the duration was low enough that you could only get 1-2 augmented de/buffs off with it, but it would be up again a minute later?  That could be enough to give some cool decision points about which of your de/buffs you want to keep in the stratosphere while having all the other numbers be in the Controller realm.

 

But likely, it would end up being Melee/Support.

 

Also, absolutely agree about "because we want to" and that's enough justification for me.  But that said, I try to get as analytical as possible about how to make it not be a complete trap.  But on-the-level: I want it like Sentinel.  "Slightly weak but ok" through testing and initial launch.  Let people come, experience it, figure out how they feel, then drift back to the City on their regular ATs.  Then use that data to decide where it's lacking.

 

Trick Arrow

I looked again at this set and realized it really would not be hard to include.

Suggested Change: Roughly double the -ToHit of Flash Arrow and -Recharge of Glue Arrow.

 

That's a starting point just to get it to where the other sets start - that is to say, still in need of a minor power shuffle and deciding which one goes away for Mez protection.  I suggest making their mez bubble be targeted AOE as a break from pattern.

 

Storm

Swap Gale and O2 Boost (future-proofing for the inevitable turnabout of Melee to Primary.

Either 02 boost becomes aoe (base Cooldown * 5, if not more) OR Hurricane gets a new version that trades out KB for mez protection.

I would lean towards the O2 Boost change, and the knowledge that Sudden Acceleration exists.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Replacement
Butchered sentences

[EmmySky]

To answer those saying 'its just a defender who will die quicker':

 

Sure, empathy, thermal, dark, time...a lot of support sets can buff or heal from anywhere.  Kinetics HAS to be in melee range to benefit from some of their powers.  Ergo, we already have the defenders in melee range, I would like them to have better fighting sets (I do love MA) to participate while there.

 

My defenders manage to die just fine at range or close in at melee or anywhere lol.  Sure give them 1 maybe 2 armors or just let them benefit from the team buffs they have, but its a moot point to me.  They are already in melee range through design or circumstance.  

 

I see a support/melee (or melee/support) option as just giving the support classes more options for how they want to fight.  

Edited February 14, 2020 by EmmySky

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

It's exactly as baked as I intended it.  I intended some future discussion but, in keeping with my OP, thought it best to save "getting into the weeds" for further discussion with you lovely folk.  But to get into it briefly: I'm of the opinion the mez protection powers and debuffs that lower enemy damage output should be enough to allow some skirmishing.  

 

Bolded part:  You are either intentionally misusing my words or you skimmed it too fast to understand.  Either way, not helpful.  Just in case it helps, here is the relevant part:

 

Your Tanking concept: Was the only one I could throw my support behind, despite it not being my cup of tea.  You made a very sound argument for how it fit into the game, and I admit I had forgotten that aspect of it.  Sorry for appearing to turn this into a "my idea vs yours" thing.  There's a reason I put mine in a new thread, and it wasn't to start a fight.

But if you create a concept that isn't fleshed out enough and people question it or take the discussion in a whole other direction because of it, do you get the desired results than if you just fleshed it out in the first place and get direct criticism of the suggestion?  Like the portion you bolded, do we need something that is primary support?  Why are we making it primary support?  Considering that usually the primary is set as the primary because it is the stronger of the two sets, how does that pair off with the secondary if the scales and invisible nerfs set the primary as the weaker of the two?  All in all though, there's no doubt people would enjoy a mix of melee and support of some kind so there's no reason to test the waters with ambiguous proposals.  Ultimately none of the suggested ideas will be used but perhaps portions of ideas could make it into the finished project...which is why I'd criticize hazy suggestions by criticizing their haziness.

 

And FYI, I did read the post.  I had to skim it though to respond to your previous response.  My take-away from it was mostly focused on the fact that it has a complete array of support powers but with a decent helping of self defense crammed in thanks to turning the mez protection and PBAoE click or toggle into a self-buff as well.  The only stipulation it pays is requiring melee range for its attacks which it seems to gain back benefit from by having more damage than 2 out of the 3.5 support ATs...as well as having an inherent that buffs its damage temporarily when casting buffs.  It'd basically be a Defender with melee attacks and better self-support which seems unfair.  Considerations can be made and sets can be altered to balance this but again, I haven't read any here.  Things like a reverse Gauntlet effect on the attacks that enhances ST damage attacks but AoE attacks have shorter range/radius and have a smaller target cap...but that might make the melee portion less fun overall.

 

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

"Silent" design goals (things that risk me rambling too much to go into in an OP):

• Don't endanger other ATs.
  • My choices were to step on the toes of Defenders or Tankers, and I decided to avoid Tanker.  Call it bias, or an expectation that non-Defender numbers would be enough to keep them protected.  Yes, I expect it to fall short of Defender numbers by quite a bit.

That's fine, conceptually.  Although with the recent buff Tankers got, their toes really aren't going to be hurting if stepped on while piddly Defender back there scraping by with Proc-monster IO builds likely don't need anyone testing their boots.

 

Just saying, having a "tanker" with pre-buff damage and attack ranges but some of Corruptor-level support powers feels like it's not edging anyone out of their comfort zone...basically being a Tanker with less damage but way better support lol.

 

2 hours ago, VileTerror said:

My biggest concern is people approaching this from a strictly game mechanics standpoint.

This is City of Heroes, folks.  We want Support/Melee because of the -cool- factor.  Because of the character concepts.  Because it will be AWESOME, even if it sucks.

Yes; we should strive to make the Archetype capable of soloing AND contributing to teams as much as any other Archetype.  But the driving force isn't to have just to have it; it's to have it because City of Heroes is exactly the sort of game where the pay-off for playing is creating something!

 

I'm glad that Replacement made this thread, even if their version of Support/Melee isn't the one I want.  But know what?  Even if it's the one we wind up with, I'll still be happy!  Even if it underperforms more than original-flavour Kheldians.  Even if "Master of" runners don't want it "stinking up" their Task Forces.  Even if I go splat to AoEs every 5 minutes (I have so many Bounce Backs sitting in my in-game email that I need to use them on /something/!).

 

If you don't think the game needs a Support/Melee Archetype; ok.  You've said your piece.  Going around and around in circles about why you feel that way does not change the fact that a Support/Melee Archetype is widely desired by many other players, and is frankly awesome.

 

Constructive criticism would be addressing -how- to make Support/Melee work.

We can keep pointing fingers but I wouldn't try assuming people criticizing a suggestion is because they don't like it.  It could be entirely the opposite and said individuals have had conversations at length about this very subject and rehashing those arguments because they've been ignored, glossed over or forgotten in another similar suggestion.

 

The funny thing I notice is, as the thread continues, the whole "minimalist" approach stops looking very minimalistic and requires more and more "work" to make it function.  Hopefully, sooner or later, we can start portioning off these ideas into branches and get more focus on how to make a better branch rather than just reinventing new twigs.

[Leogunner]

54 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

To answer those saying 'its just a defender who will die quicker':

 

Sure, empathy, thermal, dark, time...a lot of support sets can buff or heal from anywhere.  Kinetics HAS to be in melee range to benefit from some of their powers.  Ergo, we already have the defenders in melee range, I would like them to have better fighting sets (I do love MA) to participate while there.

 

My defenders manage to die just fine at range or close in at melee or anywhere lol.  Sure give them 1 maybe 2 armors or just let them benefit from the team buffs they have, but its a moot point to me.  They are already in melee range through design or circumstance.  

 

I see a support/melee (or melee/support) option as just giving the support classes more options for how they want to fight.  

To counter your argument, what about Repel?  Or Hurricane/Repulsion Field?  I think the advantage of Transfusion isn't that it requires you be in melee range to get healed but rather you can heal a teammate that is in melee range while you are safe...inverse as Twilight Grasp can heal a teammate near you.

 

But what I'm getting at (very slowly) is that no matter how minimalistic you try to keep the changes to the support sets, you're going to need more than just "make a team buff into a self-affecting buff" to facilitate melee range.  So if you're going to be altering the support sets for this AT, might as well make it more custom fit rather than giving it hand-me-downs.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Leogunner

[oedipus_tex]

What I would suggest for a Support/Melee class is to use the melee set normally used by Stalkers but replace Placate with the equivalent/adjacent pet from a Control or Mastermind set. Thus, your hybrid class has a "companion" and is significantly different from either Defender/Corruptor or the other melee classes. It would also be the first time most of the Mastermind pets made an appearance outside that AT.

 

For example:

 

Street Justice >> Thug 

Electric Melee >> Gremlins

Fire Melee >> Imps

Ice Melee >> Jack Frost

Earth Melee >> Stoney

Savage Melee >> Dire Wolf

Dark Melee >> Lich (you could do the Shadow Hound but conceptually I like Lich better)

Energy Melee >> Singularity

Katana >> Ninja

 

 

etc.

 

On other melees, companions aren't too useful. But this proposed melee class is an Empath, Force Fielder, or whatever and well situated to pair off with a companion.

 

The concept of companions is used in Dungeons and Dragons in classes like the Ranger.

 

I realize this departs from the original suggestion, but I have long thought this arrangement would work well for a melee support character.

[Zepp]

I was thinking about the confront/taunt quandary. Perchance one could change it to a PBAoE placate with a Mez protection buff. That gives you the aggro control you will need, as well as the very useful mez protections.

[VileTerror]

You know what, tex?  Hell yes!  I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I think you've hit the nail on the head!  It's got a cool hook/gimmick, it's thematic as hell, and with the right name . . . we could have a winner!

 

Let's see . . .

I'd say Singularity should go with Kinetic Melee, and we reconsider Energy Melee.

Spines?  Maybe the Flytrap, since Thorns are thematically similar?

Claws?  Demons?  Might be a little bit of a stretch, and may be better to hold them in reserve in case we ever get Whip Melee.

Phantasm for Psionic Melee seems kinda on-brand.

Staff Fighting, Dual Blades, Broad Sword, War Mace, Titan Weapon, and Battle Axe . . . who/what should they get?

Radiation . . . you know what?  This whole exercise has just reminded me that Melee has received SO MUCH MORE LOVE than any other Archetype Set.  There's like 2 Melee Sets for every other classification of Set, or four times as many in the case of Mastermind Primaries or Control Sets.  Yowzers!

 

 . . . 

 

Still like your idea, tex.  Want to give it a thread of its own, and we can take the brainstorming session there?

[Zepp]

Just to interject, it sounds a lot like:

 

The Duo (19.06.07.16.09.36)

Assault/{Pet/Armor/Support}

Partnership: +DMG +ToHit in proximity to pet. Share power effects with pet.

The Duo is an AT that is focused on working strongly with a single pet partner and balancing the burden with them.

 

Which has already been developed and somewhat tested by @malonkey1

 

The duo was actually the winner of a contest I ran to determine the most popular Archetype proposal...

On 10/7/2019 at 11:38 PM, Zepp said:

Congratulations! You are the winner of the Archetype Battle for Supremacy!

[VileTerror]

I remember the Duo, and I like that concept too . . . but I think tex's suggestion is different enough to merit its own examination.

[ImpousVileTerror]

It was suggested in another thread ( https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/20142-new-archetypes-the-things-we-do-not-have/ ), and I'd like to roll with it:

I've never been a fan of Vigilance on Defenders.  I felt it was awkward and didn't really help all Sets equally, and I attempted to argue for a +15% Recharge and +15% Endurance Discount Bonus while solo, rather than the 15% Damage Bonus.  I believe it was Arcana who said something along the lines of "no one's going to want +15% Recharge when they can have +15% Damage," but this was many, many years ago, before IOs were even a blip on anyone's imagination.

 

So, what if we (re)examine that with a Support / Melee Archetype?

 

While solo, the [Vanguard/Interceptor/what-have-you] would gain +15% Regeneration, +15% Resistance, and +5% Defense Buff to all types/positions.  This scales down for each Teammate added, until you've got three teammates where it zeroes out.   Meanwhile, the closer the [Archetype Name's] allies are to death,* the greater the [Archetype's Name] +Recharge Bonus becomes.  The player would have to be careful, though, as unlike Vigilance, this Inherent wouldn't be doing anything to mitigate the Endurance Costs of pumping out Powers more frequently.

I'm naturally open to consider different bonuses, but I like the idea of the Archetype having a sort of scaling effect of "while I'm solo, I focus my energy to keeping myself alive.  When I have friends, I focus it on keeping -them- alive."

 

And like the other suggestion over there; replace Taunt/Confront/Placate from the Melee Set with an AoE Placate which ALSO provides a Power Boost effect, improving Heals, Buffs, and Debuffs.  Possibly scaling in a way similar to those PBAoE Toggles:  First target hit provides 50% of the benefit (whatever the benefit ends up being), and each target thereafter provides a little more, until you get the other half for a full 10 (sound good?) targets.

 

Now . . . there are some potential concerns that I'm already seeing . . . 

The playstyle might be interpreted as encouragement to allow your allies to take aggro and you actively putting their lives at risk, so that you gain additional benefits.  A valid criticism, I think.  What about the rest of you?  Is that a justified fear?  Do we just say that this Archetype is thematically the villainous counterpart to the Sentinel's heroism?  Let us see if we can hash that out.

@Replacement?  @EmmySky? @HelBlaiz?  @Zepp?  @oedipus_tex?  @dangeraaron10?   Anyone else who wants to see this Archetype happen?

[EmmySky]

Blah blah SUPPORT/MELEE blah blah numbers maths blah blah.

 

That sum it up? 😝

 

No seriously I am so not a numbers girl and I really dont pay any attention to inherent powers because maths.  I am down with a support/melee however it may be implemented.  Vengeance is often blamed for letting your teammates suffer so you get a bonus so I dont really see a problem with your outlined proposal.  It wouldnt chamge the way I play at all but I am sure there would be folks out there taking advantage of it.  

 

I am not a fan of placate powers and see no reason to replace confront.  But I am the oddball that takes confront on scrappers.

 

I think honestly that my personal playstyle is very different than everyone else and my opinion should not be focused on.  But pls gimme kin/MA 😁

[ImpousVileTerror]

I think the fact that your playstyle is different makes it ESPECIALLY worthwhile to listen to your feedback.  Diverse points of view lead to better decision making, after all.

[HelBlaiz]

I'm also not really a fan of Placate. An AoE placate sounds like an amazingly useful tool for someone like a blaster who draws lots of aggro due to high damage but can't survive it without lots of build investment. The way I imagine a melee support is primarily providing team utility (buffs/debuffs/control). I'd rather their aggro management were built into their bread and butter powers (mace stuns, axe kd, dark debuffs, and buffs altered to have a self effect). I definitely prefer the idea of a melee support being able to peel aggro off of others with a weaker mag taunt (so brutes/tankers/Khelds etc can over power it) while also making it easier for them to survive the aggro they just selflessly accepted. Tanks get a debuff on their taunt that makes enemies clump up (-range), melee supports get a debuff on their taunt that makes enemies easier to resist (-damage).

[ImpousVileTerror]

So a single-target Confront, that boosts Regen, Resist, and Defense for a short time?

[HelBlaiz]

No, I definitely prefer a damage debuff on the affected target. That way it can be used to make an enemy less dangerous to help the tank, even if you can't peel them off to spread out the aggro. The defensive buffs on the melee support I'd keep in the inherent accompanied by buffs from the support set (with other only powers altered to grant SOMETHING to the caster on use).

[Golgothan86]

My suggestion for the AT would be a scaling damage buff for each support power on cooldown and active support toggle

[Alchemystic]

4 minutes ago, Golgothan86 said:

My suggestion for the AT would be a scaling damage buff for each support power on cooldown and active support toggle

That would run counter to powersets with +Recharge like Time, Radiation and Kinetics

[Golgothan86]

Just now, Tyrannical said:

That would run counter to powersets with +Recharge like Time, Radiation and Kinetics

perhaps then a stacking buff that lasts a few seconds after the power is activated (like the blaster AT) but also includes active support toggles

[Pbuckley818]

Honestly the more I have thought of how to build a such an AT like this. The more it resembles something like this. So I am all for it.

On 2/14/2020 at 1:45 PM, HelBlaiz said:

One more thing to add that is purely wishful thinking and pipe dreams,  I want a Shield Support set. So I can play a melee support with a shield that's focused on the team's survival rather than their own.

I have actually worked on one a bit, using a combination of Idea's and powers from shield, and the Buffed Leadership toggles from VEATS. It was basically the proof of concept power for a more "Defense Oriented" support power, though it could easily be tooled to be more of a pure support power, as that was the goal.

 

I think a Captain America type is really what a lot of people who are interested in this concept would want to play overall. Who'd of thunk people who want to support their team while punching their enemies in the face would be the type huh? 😉

 

On the Taunt conundrum, the way I had rigged powers in my own theoretical concept was like this, Instead of Getting Taunt they got a they got a Confront called Goad that debuffed the target's Damage and/or Accuracy and instead of Build Up they got a Placate called Faint that debuffed a Targets Resist and/or Defense. I  liked the idea that they could use Goad to take pressure off of the Tank, or to peel enemies off of squishies and bring them to the tank, and the idea of them having what essentially amounted to a group wide Build Up that went off a bit less often.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Pbuckley818