Give Trick Arrow ESD Arrow instead of EMP Arrow

[Trickshooter]

6 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Flash Arrow could use Night Widow like blind as well, which would actually I think would significantly increase the usefulness of the powerset.

They already are the same effect; unfortunately the AI doesn't care if it's blind or not because it already has aggro on you. The only way to make the AI act like it's been blinded by -Perception (as in, the way it affects players) is to make Flash Arrow like an AoE Placate, and that would be insane.

[Galaxy Brain]

59 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

TA is hard to balance, because people are so damn resistant to it getting any buffs, but adding to its control just helps controllers more than defenders/corrs/mm's.

I wanna talk about that. Why does Controller TA have to be the same as Other TA's?

[Trickshooter]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I wanna talk about that. Why does Controller TA have to be the same as Other TA's?

Because if TA gets changed in any way that significantly improves the set for all ATs except Controllers, they will kill us all.

 

 

 

 

ALSO in like 6 months, we would be reading this exact thread all over again, except it would be about giving Controllers the buffs the other ATs got.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Trickshooter said:

Because if TA gets changed in any way that significantly improves the set for all ATs except Controllers, they will kill us all.

 

ALSO in like 6 months, we would be reading this exact thread all over again, except it would be about giving Controllers the buffs the other ATs got.

What I mean by that is not "Buff all but Troller TA", but rather that they do not have to be the same 1:1 set. Like how Traps on MM's has Detonator vs Time Bomb for other AT's. Or how all the Dark Blasts are all different, I like when the "same" set has some differences based on the AT. 

 

Perhaps the Controller version is heavier on the Buff/Debuff aspect while other AT's get better control / etc, and similar global boosts.

[Replacement]

16 hours ago, Vanden said:

ESD Arrow, and all blaster AoE holds for that matter, are going to get hit with the nerf bat eventually, you can bank on that.

I'm actually super comfortable with this coming to pass, but man I hope they take the opportunity to remove the accuracy penalty from the controller versions.  When folks ask that question of "should we nerf blaster aoe control or buff controller aoe controller?" my answer tends towards yes.

 

I see you, @Captain Powerhouse.  Look at Control's stupid-long aoe holds with their accuracy penalties and ask yourself if it would be so terrible for these powers to feel like Control Nukes instead of Self-Regret Buttons.

[SeraphimKensai]

29 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

They already are the same effect; unfortunately the AI doesn't care if it's blind or not because it already has aggro on you. The only way to make the AI act like it's been blinded by -Perception (as in, the way it affects players) is to make Flash Arrow like an AoE Placate, and that would be insane.

Insanely good. 

[Trickshooter]

17 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What I mean by that is not "Buff all but Troller TA", but rather that they do not have to be the same 1:1 set. Like how Traps on MM's has Detonator vs Time Bomb for other AT's. Or how all the Dark Blasts are all different, I like when the "same" set has some differences based on the AT. 

 

Perhaps the Controller version is heavier on the Buff/Debuff aspect while other AT's get better control / etc, and similar global boosts.

The difference is those variant sets were released with their changes. TA is already out. Make changes to some versions, but not all, and we'll just end up with more of these exact threads where someone feels that it wasn't fair to exclude X power/powerset/archetype and throws out a bunch of reasons why and jfc if I have to read the phrase "player choice" one more time...

 

Anyway, you can sorta see this happening now with the shared powers between Devices and Traps, that were buffed for one but not the other.

[Bossk_Hogg]

45 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

They already are the same effect; unfortunately the AI doesn't care if it's blind or not because it already has aggro on you. The only way to make the AI act like it's been blinded by -Perception (as in, the way it affects players) is to make Flash Arrow like an AoE Placate, and that would be insane.

Give it - range to simulate they cant see very far. It would then synergize w glue arrow's slow preventing them from closing.

[Bossk_Hogg]

36 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I wanna talk about that. Why does Controller TA have to be the same as Other TA's?

It doesn't, but lets not pretend Trick Arrow is especially good as a controller secondary. TA could use some better debuffs and potentially buffs, and adjusting those aspects would help all parties. 

[Replacement]

3 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

The difference is those variant sets were released with their changes. TA is already out. Make changes to some versions, but not all, and we'll just end up with more of these exact threads where someone feels that it wasn't fair to exclude X power/powerset/archetype and throws out a bunch of reasons why and jfc if I have to read the phrase "player choice" one more time...

 

Anyway, you can sorta see this happening now with the shared powers between Devices and Traps, that were buffed for one but not the other.

I don't think this statement is in opposition to what @Galaxy Brain said.  Without removing anything, you could buff the debuff aspects for controllers and the Mez aspects for others.

 

That said, I think some of the debuff numbers should straight up be buffed across the board first.  Flash Arrow and Glue Arrow Combined are worse than the early defensive debuffs other Support sets get (Darkest Night, Weaken, etc).  I'd do this across the board as a first pass, then revisit and see if we need to get creative between the different ATs.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Trickshooter said:

Why is a 'proper' trick arrow overhaul somehow mutually exclusive with an EMP arrow buff?

[Trickshooter]

6 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Why is a 'proper' trick arrow overhaul somehow mutually exclusive with an EMP arrow buff?

It’s not, it was a joke about the thread itself being exclusively about EMP Arrow.

 

But honestly, my opinion is that EMP Arrow is an awesome power and is not in need of any buffs.

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

They already are the same effect; unfortunately the AI doesn't care if it's blind or not because it already has aggro on you. The only way to make the AI act like it's been blinded by -Perception (as in, the way it affects players) is to make Flash Arrow like an AoE Placate, and that would be insane.

Not insane ... completely appropriate.

 

Flash Arrow ought to be something you can use in the middle of combat for an effect, not just something you have to use before combat starts (and then once you've initiated combat most of the usefulness of Flash Arrow just falls by the wayside).

[Replacement]

I think the bigger issue with giving it a Placate effect is the whole... "shouldn't this apply to everyone?" thing.  

 

Smoke Bomb and Misdirection are Single Player vs Multiple Enemies.  Flash Arrow, to stay in theme and to be considered Supportive, would need to be Multiple players vs Multiple Enemies.  Which would probably include a tank, unless you code it to be overridden by active taunts and... this is getting complicated.

[Trickshooter]

9 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Not insane ... completely appropriate.

 

Flash Arrow ought to be something you can use in the middle of combat for an effect, not just something you have to use before combat starts (and then once you've initiated combat most of the usefulness of Flash Arrow just falls by the wayside).

Insane because, in addition to being way too powerful solo, Placate only... well, placates enemies for the caster. You’d basically be siccing entire groups of enemies on your teammates. Neat on a team of Tankers or Brutes, problematic on a team of squishies.

[VileTerror]

UNLESS Flash Arrow's Placate effect actually has a large AoE and activates an auto-cast Placate AoE originating from each ally in range.

 

I'm also of the mind that we could use more Powers with Placate as a Secondary Effect / "Chance to Placate" Powers.  As it stands, it looks like every Power with a Placate effect is guaranteed to work, as long as it passes an Accuracy Check (assuming it's not Autohit anyway).  Then again, every Power with a Placate effect is also -primarily- a Placate Power . . . 

[Trickshooter]

2 hours ago, VileTerror said:

UNLESS Flash Arrow's Placate effect actually has a large AoE and activates an auto-cast Placate AoE originating from each ally in range.

It's not quite that simple. How something like this would probably need to work would be firing your arrow at an enemy, but the power actually just summons a pseudopet at the foot of allies within range of that enemy, and those pets radiate an AoE Placate. But even then, those pets have no idea what target you intended to placate, so they could placate enemies you didn't mean to, while not hitting the enemies you did want to affect. And if all pets don't hit all enemies, you end up with a similar problem as before; enemies that weren't placated by all allies now go after those allies that didn't placate them.

 

Edit: I don't know why I didn't even think of this before, but if psuedopets are the ones casting Placate, then enemies are only being placated from attacking the actual pseudopets.

 

Basically, if it were simple to make the enemies react to Flash Arrow/Smoke/Smoke Grenade similarly to the way players do, we'd probably already have it.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Trickshooter
ugh

[Redlynne]

Kind of begs the question about how Placate ACTUALLY functions.

 

If Placate cast by a Foe causes only that Foe to be removed from the Threat list ... might that mean that Placate cast ON SELF could perhaps remove EVERY FOE from the Threat list?

It's the latter functionality (wiping the entire Threat list, not just the caster from the Threat list) that is the desired functionality.

 

Alternatively, you could just add Sleep (which does not inherently draw aggro or create Threat) to Flash Arrow for a "fragile" sort of "stop attacking" type of use of the power (so not a Hold, but a Sleep).  Borrow the visual FX of the Illusion Controller power Flash (which is a Hold) for the "I'm Blinded!" appearance of the power, rather than using any kind of slumped over "I'm Asleep!" visual indicator and you'd be good to go ...

[Trickshooter]

33 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Alternatively, you could just add Sleep (which does not inherently draw aggro or create Threat) to Flash Arrow for a "fragile" sort of "stop attacking" type of use of the power (so not a Hold, but a Sleep).  Borrow the visual FX of the Illusion Controller power Flash (which is a Hold) for the "I'm Blinded!" appearance of the power, rather than using any kind of slumped over "I'm Asleep!" visual indicator and you'd be good to go ...

Sleep itself is not immune to aggro; I'm not sure any power is. Very few sleeps actually generate no aggro. Mass Hypnosis might be the only one, honestly. Even Confuse is not immune, but most Confuse powers are flagged not to notify mobs.

 

But anyway, this was a common suggestion years ago (specifically the graphics of the AoE Sleep effect of Illusion Control/Blind), and the likely reason it was never really considered is because it's adding another control, which makes it inherently better for Controllers, who: A) already get the most benefit out of the set and B) have long been considered the reason the set couldn't be buffed.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Trickshooter
I said "actually" like a hundred times and I don't wanna be that guy

[Cidri]

One major problem with Trick Arrow is that so many of the powers don't take sets. Just a change to this would make it more fun.

[VileTerror]

Alright, I'm pretty sure the tech has improved on the backend to not -need- to use that pseudopet method . . . but instead of the pseudopet method, let's get a little jankier and smoosh two birds with one stone:

Flash Arrow grants all allies in the AoE's range a Temp Power for a few seconds, which they can then click on to apply an AoE Placate on a target of their choice.  This also allows players to Opt Out of Placating enemies if they're trying to maintain Aggro.

 

Not the most thematically appropriate, and definitely not the most direct . . . but I honestly like the gameplay solution this offers.

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

Sleep itself is not immune to aggro; I'm not sure any power is.

Trickshooter ... when handed a lemonade, you need to stop trying to make lemons out of it.

 

I'm well aware of the fact that Sleep is not inherently immune to aggro.  I've played a Mind Controller who used Mass Hypnosis and was always amazed by seeing foes affected by Sleep aggro onto my character WHILE ASLEEP just from mere proximity if I moved through them after putting them all to sleep.  The reason why that happened was because Sleep in and of itself does not debuff Perception ... meaning that Perception was not "impaired" while mezzed with Sleep from Mass Hypnosis.

 

Last time I checked ... Flash Arrow debuffs Perception by -90% for 60 seconds (on a Defender, other ATs will have different specifics).

 

What happens when you combine Sleep with Perception debuffing?

The combo isn't "immune" to aggro ... but it sure does help with letting you solo spawn groups 1 at a time!  If you can Sleep+Perception debuff from Flash Arrow you can "neutralize" a spawn group and then pull individual $Targets out of it one at time while keeping the rest in Sleep and with the Perception debuffing you might not even get aggro from all of them all at once (unless if they're too close together for the Perception debuff to prevent their aggro shout).

 

Is it a "perfect" solution?  No.

Is it a "good enough" solution?  For soloing ... it's fantastic.  In groups, the Sleep will no doubt be broken easily by stray (read: AoE) damage thrown into the mix, but that's fine.

 

Being able to use Flash Arrow to "defer" aggro from a spawn group when soloing so as to be able to defeat them sequentially, rather than in parallel, would seem to be a somewhat worthwhile upgrade to the power in terms of usefulness.  Do you disagree?

 

10 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

Very few sleeps actually generate no aggro.

Doing no damage helps with that ...

 

10 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

the likely reason it was never really considered is because it's adding another control, which makes it inherently better for Controllers

Then start thinking creatively already!

 

Here ... I'll start.

• 3s Sleep (mag 1)
• 6s Sleep (mag 1)
• 9s Sleep (mag 1)
• 12s Sleep (mag 1)
• 15s Sleep (mag 1)

This means:

A +0 Underling will Sleep for 15 sec

A +0 Minion will Sleep for 12 sec

A +0 Lieutenant will Sleep for 9 sec

A +0 Boss will Sleep for 6 sec

A +4 Boss will Sleep for 3 sec

 

Why?

MAG stacking and how long the MAG stacks remain "deep" enough for the Sleep to affect the $Targets.

 

Now, we can always quibble over how long the Sleep effect durations ought to be, what MAG they ought to have, how many of them ought to be allowed to stack per use of the power ... in other words the details are open to negotiation ... but I wanted to present you with an option that shows that there are possibilities for original thinking here that you seem to have been dismissing out of hand.

 

10 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

which makes it inherently better for Controllers

By the way, I looked at ...

Entangling Arrow for Controllers and I don't see any Overpower effect built into the power.

Flash Arrow for Controllers and I don't see any Overpower effect built into the power.

Glue Arrow for Controllers and I don't see any Overpower effect built into the power.

Ice Arrow for Controllers and I don't see any Overpower effect built into the power.

Poison Gas Arrow for Controllers and I don't see any Overpower effect built into the power.

Acid Arrow for Controllers and I don't see any Overpower effect built into the power.

Disruption Arrow for Controllers and I don't see any Overpower effect built into the power.

Oil Slick Arrow for Controllers and I don't see any Overpower effect built into the power.

EMP Arrow for Controllers and I don't any Overpower effect built into the power that's unique to Controllers.

 

So when you say that it's "inherently better for Controllers" to have Trick Arrow powers that incorporate control effects in them, that's only true in the sense that Controllers have other powers those controls can be stacked with ... but last I checked there isn't a tremendous amount of advantage to Controllers over other Archetypes by giving Flash Arrow the kind of "MAG decay" behavior I've outlined above for a Sleep, since unlike a Hold or an Immobilize or a Stun, Sleep can be broken.

 

At best you can argue that a Sleep power sets up Containment for a damaging mez power that does Hold or Immobilize or Stun (or whatever) for a Controller, but at best that's a ONE AND DONE advantage there where the Controller would only gain the advantage on the first hit (and a lot of $Targets require more than one hit, so...).

 

In other words, the "inherently better for Controllers" point is marginal AT BEST in my personal opinion, depending on how you structure the Sleep effect proposed for Flash Arrow (see example above).

[SeraphimKensai]

Enemies without eyes should be immune to flash arrow as well.

[VileTerror]

And enemies without lungs should be immune to Char and Cinders.

 

But then the game would be a colossal pain in the ass; first for the Devs to make all those changes, and then for the players who had various Powers suddenly become useless against whole swathes of enemies.

[Redlynne]

54 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Enemies without eyes should be immune to flash arrow as well.

Cosmetic costume options have NO IMPACT ON GAME MECHANICS for a reason...