Give Trick Arrow ESD Arrow instead of EMP Arrow

[oedipus_tex]

Concept: Give Trick Arrow ESD Arrow from the Blaster Tactical Arrow set instead of EMP Arrow.

 

 

Here is EMP Arrow. It's a Mag 3 Hold on a 300s Recharge. 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is ESD Arrow, a Mag 3 Hold on 90 second recharge. The radius is smaller (20ft versus 35ft) and you lose the short duration -Regen of EMP Arrow that everyone pretty much ignores. But the endurance cost is lower (13 versus 24), it recharges much faster, and doesn't shut down your recovery. It's slightly less Accurate but that's fine.

 

Both powers have the same animation time, range, and take the same IOs.

 

Indeed, it seems someone looked at EMP Arrow and said, "Let's take that power and make it better." Why do Blasters have a better version of a buff/debuff power than the actual buff/debuff power? Shrug. Doesn't matter. Just make sure buff/debuff sets get access to it.

 

If you want to be extra nice, you can keep the name EMP Arrow, keep the -Regen in there, lower the radius, and lower the Recharge to 90 seconds. But all that isn't necessary if you want to just use ESD Arrow instead. It would be a straight improvement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[macskull]

Multiple post-shutdown Blaster secondaries have AoE crowd control that is the same as or outright better than the version in buff/debuff or control sets in terms of recharge time or magnitude. It's part of the reason the newer Blaster secondaries are so ridiculously good.

[Vanden]

ESD Arrow, and all blaster AoE holds for that matter, are going to get hit with the nerf bat eventually, you can bank on that.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

ESD Arrow, and all blaster AoE holds for that matter, are going to get hit with the nerf bat eventually, you can bank on that.

Good point.  But Trick Arrow still could use a buff.  

 

[ScarySai]

Why not just buff EMP to be better than the blaster version? Realistically, as a debuff/control set, it shouldn't have to beg for a blaster ability.

Edited February 24, 2020 by ScarySai

[Auroxis]

I agree that TA needs a buff but replacing existing functionality like -regen isn't the way to go. It's not about being "extra nice", just don't rock the boat when there's no need for it.

 

Buff what the set has or add stuff on top of it, don't remove features.

[ScarySai]

31 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

I agree that TA needs a buff but replacing existing functionality like -regen isn't the way to go. It's not about being "extra nice", just don't rock the boat when there's no need for it.

 

Buff what the set has or add stuff on top of it, don't remove features.

Honestly, a few changes to recharge, hold potency and endurance to match ESD, but with some added potency in EMP would be better than just copying ESD.

 

Trick arrow is probably in the running as one of the worst power sets in the entire game, if not THE worst. It could use some big buffs, and giving them a roided out EMP would work wonders.

Edited February 24, 2020 by ScarySai

[siolfir]

A minor nitpick: EMP also has the 50% chance for a mag 4 hold which doesn't appear to be present in ESD to go along with the -regen and larger radius. Sure it's not a guarantee, and the endurance cost is probably too high given what was assigned to ESD, but being able to one-shot hold bosses is a nice bonus.

 

[Super Homer]

19 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

giving them a roided out EMP would work wonders.

 

That would be, IMO, narrow sighted and extremely stupid. As soon as something is changed the set might go ignored for the rest of it's life. It's a damned buff/debuff set, not a control set, if I wanted an AoE hold I would roll a Controller.

 

EMP Arrow should be buffed to fit the set category. Reduce end cost, remove the crash, make its -Regen and -Recovery last longer.

[Trickshooter]

No, thank you. I like EMP Arrow as is for multiple reasons, but I'm also against making changes to Trick Arrow that focus on the controls, as these tend to only slightly improve the set for Defenders, Corruptors and Masterminds, while significantly improving it for Controllers who already perform the best with it.

 

Also, those Blaster AoE mezzes are not a good metric for balance because I'm 100% sure they're going to get nerfed at some point.

[SeraphimKensai]

9 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

If I wanted an AoE hold I would roll a Controller.

I would suggest a blaster with an AoE hold for the time being.

 

But I've always been in the camp that a base 240 second AoE mez is too long. It was only made that way before there were target caps as a means of balance.

[ScarySai]

16 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

43 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

giving them a roided out EMP would work wonders.

 

That would be, IMO, narrow sighted and extremely stupid.

17 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

EMP Arrow should be buffed

[Super Homer]

11 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

To clear your confusion about what is narrow minded and stupid, this is what I meant to quote:

56 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Honestly, a few changes to recharge, hold potency and endurance to match ESD, but with some added potency in EMP would be better than just copying ESD.

 

[ScarySai]

You mean the main things that make the dedicated debuff/control powerset's version of the power worse than the blaster variant? 

 

Trick arrow is one of the worst powersets in the game, buffing EMP arrow in that way wouldn't magically make the set god tier on it's own. It would, however, make the EMP arrow (Trick arrow's capstone, by the way.) much more appealing/useful.

Edited February 24, 2020 by ScarySai

[Super Homer]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

You mean the main things that make the dedicated debuff/control powerset's version of the power worse than the blaster's? 

 

Trick arrow is one of the worst powersets in the game, buffing EMP arrow in that way wouldn't magically make the set god tier on it's own.

 

36 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

It's a damned buff/debuff set, not a control set, if I wanted an AoE hold I would roll a Controller.

 

EMP Arrow should be buffed to fit the set category. Reduce end cost, remove the crash, make its -Regen and -Recovery last longer.

 

[ScarySai]

I know what you said earlier, I disagree with it. Quoting yourself isn't a convincing argument.

 

7/9 powers in the set are control-based in some form, I don't want to hear it's "Not a control set."

 

The entire gimmick is debuff+control. There's not a single 'buff' in the entire set.

 

Furthermore, even if it wasn't a control-themed powerset (which it is), EMP arrow is a control power, and should be good at it's job when it's both 1: The capstone, and 2: Not that good at the job it's supposed to do for the recharge tax it has.

Edited February 24, 2020 by ScarySai

[Bossk_Hogg]

Four of Trick Arrow's powers are straight up inferior to Tactical Arrow (Electrified Net Arrow, Ice Arrow, Glue Arrow and ESD Arrow) and Flash Arrow is essentially identical. The only thing TA has going for it is Oil Slick Arrow, and is that what we really want out of a support set?  It's the second least picked support set (after traps, which is really just a solo mastermind set), but if it wasn't a bow set it would be even lower. People will play archers no matter how much the set blows.

 

It's debuff numbers aren't great, as it takes TA four powers to do what Radiation does in two toggles. No -regen outside of EMP arrow and no -special. Meh soft control with far too long cooldowns. 

 

Cue the people defending it because "but muh procs!" because apparently the only thing a power needs to do now is have the right recharge/activation ratio and accept the right sets. I think powers need to be good on their own other than as a proc delivery vehicle.

[Rathulfr]

14 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I think powers need to be good on their own other than as a proc delivery vehicle.

Amen.  Preach!

[ScarySai]

41 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Four of Trick Arrow's powers are straight up inferior to Tactical Arrow (Electrified Net Arrow, Ice Arrow, Glue Arrow and ESD Arrow) and Flash Arrow is essentially identical. The only thing TA has going for it is Oil Slick Arrow, and is that what we really want out of a support set?  It's the second least picked support set (after traps, which is really just a solo mastermind set), but if it wasn't a bow set it would be even lower. People will play archers no matter how much the set blows.

 

It's debuff numbers aren't great, as it takes TA four powers to do what Radiation does in two toggles. No -regen outside of EMP arrow and no -special. Meh soft control with far too long cooldowns. 

 

Cue the people defending it because "but muh procs!" because apparently the only thing a power needs to do now is have the right recharge/activation ratio and accept the right sets. I think powers need to be good on their own other than as a proc delivery vehicle.

I'm in agreement, trick arrow needs a balance pass and a hefty amount of buffs.

 

Those who think TA needs to be nerfed so people can pretend that Trick isn't one of the worst sets in the game are completely off base, though.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

I'm in agreement, trick arrow needs a balance pass and a hefty amount of buffs.

 

Those who think TA needs to be nerfed so people can pretend that Trick isn't one of the worst sets in the game are completely off base, though.

Its more a case if someone doing bad math when they did the newer Blaster Secondaries. 

 

They messed up some melee recharge/damage numbers.

 

And they messed up some of the AOE control numbers.  

 

 

[SeraphimKensai]

Ideas for Trick Arrow:

1. 20% buff to current debuff values? Not sure how balanced that would be, but seems like it might be closer to where Trick Arrow should be.

 

2. Replace Entangling Arrow with Electric Net Arrow. Replace EMP Arrow with ESD Arrow.

 

3. Revamp Poison Gas Arrow to act like the poison from Poison Trap. Revamp Ice Arrow with Detonation Arrow (similar to Detonate, using fire damage to trigger Oil Slick Arrow from the same set whoa...)

 

Reasoning: The majority feel Trick Arrow's debuffs are under tuned. Electric Net Arrow gives us a little extra damage and could ignite Oil Slick Arrow as well. ESD Arrow is just superior to EMP Arrow and the recharge allows you to use it fairly often. Poison Gas Arrow sucks, the sleep is pretty meh, but everyone loves Poison Trap, why can't we have a ranged version, maybe at a slightly lower debuff value than Poison Trap to be fair to Traps users. Ice arrow I think.could be better served turning it into a fire based Detonate like power. Imagine shooting a target with an arrow and after a short fuse, boom. I think people would have fun with it.

 

What do you think?

[ScarySai]

10 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Its more a case if someone doing bad math when they did the newer Blaster Secondaries. 

 

They messed up some melee recharge/damage numbers.

 

And they messed up some of the AOE control numbers.  

 

 

The sets were made with a small scale private server in mind, I bet. Regard for the standard formula was ignored for this experiment.

 

That being said, they switch up the norm for blasters, and CoH has plenty of imbalances not really worth nerfing. I don't mind them.

 

I prefer buffing up underperformers over nerfing outliers, so I think Trick Arrow should get a significant pass to make it a force to be reckoned with.

[Bossk_Hogg]

If we're looking for an in-set way to ignite Oil Slick, it should be by adding a minor energy damage to Disruption Arrow, which currently cannot take any sets. Electrified Net Arrow would still require you to futz around with targeting the slick and wasting animation time, rather than have it occur easier off of something you do anyways. 

 

Net Arrow needs something, but damage will just end up making it a crappier version of the blaster power, as their damage scales are higher. The only reason it and Web Grenade got damage is to let all blasters have another power to use while mezzed. However a single target immob is undeniably ass tier in current COH, and it is one of the more skipped powers for Defenders. Increasing the control just helps controllers out disproportionately to defenders/corrupters. I still stand by making it "Marking Arrow". Keep the immob but add a party wide damage/to-hit buff. This allows for AT scaling, provides a useful effect and helps masterminds who are otherwise saddled with a trash power.

 

Flash should go up to 10% on defenders, w appropriate scaling, and apply -range. Poison Gas needs -regen and -special, and to reapply the sleep effect. Glue needs something else as well, in addition to the recharge being cut. 

 

TA is hard to balance, because people are so damn resistant to it getting any buffs, but adding to its control just helps controllers more than defenders/corrs/mm's. And most debuffs simply aren't useful at end stages due to how the purple patch disproportionately affects debuffs over buffs. Anything you actually want to hit with a slow/-to hit/etc is barely effected. Only -resistance and to a lesser extent - damage/regen really matter. Its a bad hook to hang your hat on entirely. 

[Trickshooter]

[SeraphimKensai]

I like the idea of a Marking or Tracer Arrow to help damage on a primary target, when I read that I thought similar to Opportunity to a degree.

 

Flash Arrow could use Night Widow like blind as well, which would actually I think would significantly increase the usefulness of the powerset.