Micro's Warshade wishlist

[Doomrider]

@MicrocosmWhat do you think about adding a taunt component to Black Dwarf Mire under your want list? I don't think its too much to ask given Bright Dwarf Flare has one and it would probably be  easy to add to the power. This could directly help pet management on top of whatever changes are made to the pets directly to improve their squishy-ness. 

[Microcosm]

4 hours ago, Doomrider said:

@MicrocosmWhat do you think about adding a taunt component to Black Dwarf Mire under your want list? I don't think its too much to ask given Bright Dwarf Flare has one and it would probably be  easy to add to the power. This could directly help pet management on top of whatever changes are made to the pets directly to improve their squishy-ness. 

Can do. I'm wary of any change to dwarf mire as it is pretty fantastic in its current state, but an aoe taunt makes sense for dwarf.

[Septipheran]

Against my better judgement I'd like to point out to @Redlynne something interesting I noticed in the beta patch notes:

 

Could it be that this will address the technical limitations you were alluding to in regards to knock-to mechanics? I guess time will tell. 🙂

 

[Redlynne]

15 minutes ago, Septipheran said:

Could it be that this will address the technical limitations you were alluding to in regards to knock-to mechanics?

Possibly.

Unlikely as all get out ...

... but possible.

 

We'd need more info to know though so ...

 

[PhoenixV117]

Yeah I’d play my PB more if the toggles didn’t need reckicking everytime I change form ...

or hell, keep both AT’s the same and just let them use toggles and other skills when form changed 🤷🏽‍♂️

Edited March 24, 2020 by PhoenixV117

[Septipheran]

1 minute ago, PhoenixV117 said:

Yeah I’d play my PB more if the toggles didn’t need reckicking everytime I change form 

The key is to construct your build in such a way that you don't use toggles. My tri-form Kheldian builds all have 32.5% s/l defense with no toggles, so regardless of my form I can softcap with a small purple. Warshades are who really suffer from the lack of toggle suppression due to inky aspect/orbiting death.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Septipheran

[Septipheran]

58 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Possibly.

Unlikely as all get out ...

... but possible.

 

We'd need more info to know though so ...

 

You should go ask Jimmy. Show him your spreadsheets! Maybe that will help. 😁

[chi1701]

11 hours ago, PhoenixV117 said:

Yeah I’d play my PB more if the toggles didn’t need reckicking everytime I change form ...

or hell, keep both AT’s the same and just let them use toggles and other skills when form changed 🤷🏽‍♂️

For me, i dont have toggles, but it what is annoying is all buffs and debuffs cant be used in forms, even temporary powers cant be used in forms. I have to time it right if im tanking to activate hasten, if im doing damage, its coming out of nova every 30 or so seconds for inner light as well as hasten etc.

[shigan5]

Love all the suggestions! Taunt included in dwarf mire, along with the drain protection sound like dreams come true

Can we also  get a fix for spawning our pets? Currently, unless the dead body stays spawned in the game for the whole animation, it will fail and we don't get a pet but we also get the full cooldown.

Edited March 31, 2020 by shigan5

[Cybot X-22]

The no pet bug on fading corpses is an oldie all right...

[Hyperstrike]

27 minutes ago, Cybot X-22 said:

The no pet bug on fading corpses is an oldie all right...

Question, would it be possible to add an immediate effect upon cast that resets the "corpse fade" duration or simply adds time?

This would/should eliminate the problem of corpse fade resulting in a wasted power activation.

[Microcosm]

2 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Question, would it be possible to add an immediate effect upon cast that resets the "corpse fade" duration or simply adds time?

This would/should eliminate the problem of corpse fade resulting in a wasted power activation.

Don't know, might be. Probably easier to just start a summon at the corpse's location immediately upon activation. Can keep the animation duration if necessary, just have the fluffy appear sooner (or start out invisible and affecting only self for x seconds for the same effect as current).

[ScarySai]

How do I like a post a hundred times? Pretty much nailed it on all counts.

 

IIRC, Powerhouse said at some point that orbiting death wouldn't be considered for suppression because it turns off when stunned? Personally don't see the reason in that, let the warshade worry about that.

[Microcosm]

12 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

How do I like a post a hundred times? Pretty much nailed it on all counts.

 

IIRC, Powerhouse said at some point that orbiting death wouldn't be considered for suppression because it turns off when stunned? Personally don't see the reason in that, let the warshade worry about that.

Right, that's inconsistent with Stalker offensive toggles which suppress in Hidden state. Kheldian forms are more like a 'Hidden' special status than being mezzed, so that logic doesn't seem right. Luckily CP seems pretty open-minded, so we'll see. If Inky Aspect and Orbiting Death don't get the toggle suppression thing those powers will remain all but useless to anyone other than a human form. Most of this list is just to try to make the powers stop actively fighting each other, not "make mai WS the OP, plz" so hopefully we can get it done.

[ScarySai]

Hopefully.

 

I had an idea for the essences as well I'd like to throw out there - on the off chance that for whatever reason we never get the AI, Dwarf Taunt or more robust pets - suppose they exploded very violently when killed, doing damage on par with an unchain?

 

I'd prefer the pets live longer and just not die that often, but figured I'd throw the idea out there on the off chance those ideas aren't considered for whatever reason.

[Microcosm]

Just now, ScarySai said:

Hopefully.

 

I had an idea for the essences as well I'd like to throw out there - on the off chance that for whatever reason we never get the AI, Dwarf Taunt or more robust pets - suppose they exploded very violently when killed, doing damage on par with an unchain?

 

I'd prefer the pets live longer and just not die that often, but figured I'd throw the idea out there on the off chance those ideas aren't considered for whatever reason.

Love it. That is actually very similar to my idea when Arbiter Hawk changed khelds for PB photon seekers: make them a clone of Ws pets that you can only summon one of but would periodically summon a classic seeker to explode on mobs. The current PB pet isn't a pet at all, it's a weird second nuke.

 

I would still prefer the other change for the WS pets if possible so they are more helpful in AV/GM etc fights, but an explosive desummon is cool and thematic.

[ScarySai]

25 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

Love it. That is actually very similar to my idea when Arbiter Hawk changed khelds for PB photon seekers: make them a clone of Ws pets that you can only summon one of but would periodically summon a classic seeker to explode on mobs. The current PB pet isn't a pet at all, it's a weird second nuke.

 

I would still prefer the other change for the WS pets if possible so they are more helpful in AV/GM etc fights, but an explosive desummon is cool and thematic.

I really liked the original idea that was documented regarding the photon seekers. It was basically orbiting death on steroids.

 

I get why it never made it in back then, but right now it'd be pretty badass.

 

Essences need something for sure, though. Even my various masterminds' T1 pets can handle +4 minions better than my shade pets can. All it takes is a single stray that isn't being targeted by them to destroy my army, and no matter how well I play and how much I alter my playstyle to help them survive, there's always one stray that hits them. Coincidentally, this is usually when my gravatic emanation decides to miss everything I want to hit with it.

Edited April 4, 2020 by ScarySai

[Redlynne]

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I really liked the original idea that was documented regarding the photon seekers. It was basically orbiting death on steroids.

I never saw the original idea documented for photon seekers, but could totally get behind a toggle that simply spawns photon seekers over time (like 1 every 10 seconds or so) up to a max limit of number you can have out simultaneously.  That way, they're just respawning for you in the background, and they just aggro/attack whatever is nearby, rather than being an explicit damage aura.

 

Of course, the other way to do it would be to take Orbiting Death (2s activation toggle) ... multiply the damage per activation by 5 and then multiply the activation time by 5 so it activates once per 10 seconds (Orbiting Death is once per 2 seconds.

 

Alternatively, take Orbiting Death (2s activation toggle) ... multiply the damage per activation by 5 and then have the power suppress for 9 seconds whenever the power deals damage, so it hits for 5x damage once per 10s, but is more readily ready hit/hurt things on faster timing than the above version with a 10s activation period.

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

I never saw the original idea documented for photon seekers, but could totally get behind a toggle that simply spawns photon seekers over time (like 1 every 10 seconds or so) up to a max limit of number you can have out simultaneously.  That way, they're just respawning for you in the background, and they just aggro/attack whatever is nearby, rather than being an explicit damage aura.

That's basically what it was, I don't remember what the limit for it was, though.

 

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

Of course, the other way to do it would be to take Orbiting Death (2s activation toggle) ... multiply the damage per activation by 5 and then multiply the activation time by 5 so it activates once per 10 seconds (Orbiting Death is once per 2 seconds.

I'd like to see it get the leadership treatment and have it's activation shortened, personally. Honestly, that and suppression would be enough for me in 90% of situations, especially if single target got looked at.

[Redlynne]

Cast time is what got changed on Leadership toggles, not the activation interval times.

[ScarySai]

5 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Cast time is what got changed on Leadership toggles, not the activation interval times.

I'm referring to cast time, I didn't mean to imply I was referring to intervals.

Edited April 4, 2020 by ScarySai

[Septipheran]

I'm linking the lore doc that Sai referenced with the original concept for Photon Seekers.

 

Quote

 

Energy Drones - Summons 5 energy balls (pets) next to the caster, each with varying movement speed.  The energy balls follow the caster until they detect a target. Then they rush to the target and explode on impact, destroying themselves and doing a small AoE damage.  This could possible be a toggle, periodically summoning a new energy ball every 30 seconds or so, each with a timer so no more than 5 can be alive at one time) 
 

 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XroAWgGCTcrqSzP5Ea_OPENsHFDNMkJdWVI-0Nmmnrc/edit

 

Adding a side note: This doc is a great read and has more to offer than just the Photon Seekers concept I referenced. I recommend reading through it in its' entirety if you're a fellow Kheld superfan.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Septipheran

[GetRidOfWires]

I think PBS and WSs would benefit a great deal just changing the Human form shields from Typed Res to Typed Def. 

[Cybot X-22]

Holy cow that design document. Where on Earth did we manage to find that? Regardless, kudos on mentioning it.

[Iron Alex]

On 3/21/2020 at 2:39 PM, Microcosm said:

Hi all, I've been thinking this over as I've struggled with challenges of Warshades in the current game. We often talk about Peacebringers needing changes, but I honestly think they are better off right now than Warshades. I'm also pretty careful about buffing to the point of overpowering classes, as I feel the power creep has gotten out of hand in most of the game. To that end, here is the list of things I would like changed without going overboard. Feel free to flame.

 

Need

Dark Melee improvements applied.

In Issue 13, the then under-performing Dark Melee set was given tweaks to smooth out its attacks and improve its single-target abilities. These consisted of

1. Changing Soul Drain (map to Sunless Mire) to front-load its buffs with smaller buffs for more targets hit. This was so that against a single-target you would get a buff more similar to a build up effect, and fully saturated you would get the same buffs as originally
2. Siphon Life (map to Essence Drain) recharge reduced and damage increased
3. Midnight's Grasp (partial map to Gravity Well) initial damage increased and DoT shortened

These changes were proliferated everywhere these powers existed... except to the Warshade clones. Warshades are ridiculously bad at single-target damage currently (possibly the worst in the game), and this is part of why. We don't have to apply the change to Gravity Well, but the other two absolutely should be.

 

Toggle suppression.

The biggest and most agreed upon QoL change requested. The code exists at least in part already (Stalker offensive toggles suppress when Hidden), we just need it applied for Kheldian forms. 'Nuff said.

 

Pets.

Warshade pets make up a significant chunk of their damage, both single-target and AoE. They are also fun, unique and challenging in their use. As it stands though, they are almost worthless in the current game. They like to kamikaze enemies even though they have no melee attacks at all, and they die to a stiff breeze because they have no native resistance or defense. Even fire imps get some resistance to fire damage. Most other pets get some resist/defense, and are also paired with a class that can buff or heal them to keep them alive, unlike Warshades who cannot. There was a time on live where they would inherit their owner's Eclipse buffs and get good resistance values for at least a small amount of their life span, but that was apparently removed at some point; currently they will inherit Sunless Mire buffs but not Eclipse.

How to fix: 1) make them not close to melee like the recent mm changes, 2) let them inherit Eclipse buffs again.

 

Pets...2

shigan5 noted something here that most the rest of us just got used to being painful over so long. If you use the Dark Extraction power on a defeated enemy and that enemy disappears before the (longish) animation is complete, you will have "used" the power, but you get no pet. This is just a silly thing that punishes people for no reason. As soon as you kick off the power against a defeated enemy it should guarantee a resulting pet.

 

Want (very badly)

Status protection from shields.

The human shields are largely useless on both Kheldians because of no toggle suppression and because Eclipse/Lightform, well, eclipse them. Warshades also have 0 mez protection (Pbs get some in Lightform) on a class that is designed to operate mostly in melee range. I would like to add a single point of mez protection against Hold, Sleep, Stun and Fear to Absorption and each of the toggle shields. (Pbs I would do the same except Confuse protection instead of Fear, seems more thematic for the two). This makes the shields no longer worthless, but not overpowered, and does not step on the toes of Dwarf as the magnitude is small even if you take and run all of the shields.

 

Knock-to instead of Knock-back.

Warshades pay a knockback tax on many of their powers. This is not at all thematic, as their powers are mostly based on Gravity... Why do we hit enemies with Gravitic Emanation and have them fly away from us? These powers should be changed to a new, unique mechanic of knock toward the player. This fits the theme, works better with the Warshade's powers which actually require enemies near them, not scattered, and would make them uniquely valuable on teams as a class that can actively cluster small groups of enemies.

Edit: Redlynne pointed out another option is to use the wormhole group teleports to mimic this behavior without additional code. Whatever works to make it happen I say.

 

Want (less badly)

End drain protection in Dwarf.

Dwarf form is the turtle shell, oh crap, protection form. You can, however, easily be detoggled from Dwarf form by end drain attacks. Normal tanking characters can run toggles, either from their powersets or pools, to avoid end drain attacks or have built in end drain protection. Since Dwarf cannot run any defense toggles, I think a small amount of end drain protection would be in order to allow you to keep tanking a little in -end situations.

 

Damage cap increase.

For both Kheldians. They are built with low base damage and the ability to buff themselves fairly well. This works ok-ish solo, but on teams means they top out in performance way before anyone else does, and actively makes their current inherent less valuable.

 

Addition: Dwarf Mire Taunt.

Request from Doom that seems reasonable. Simply put, PB Dwarf gets a taunt in their AoE attack to help with off-tanking, but WS Dwarf does not. This seems needlessly inconsistent, and makes WS Dwarf an inferior off-tank.

 

That's it. Flame away.

all great points.. some changes i would like is make:

 

Siphon Life  into the dark blast heal so we can use it at range.

 

Pets release 2 pets at a time

 

yeah mez protection is a must in the shields at least mag 2 for each.

 

Damage CAP should be increased. And also modifiers raised to at least the sentinal if not SOA lvls in human form.

 

 

And the last thing i whole hearlty agree with and been saying from live days the toggle suppression.. is a MUST FIX. that would improve khelds tremendously. Being able to form change with ease without having to retoggle would be the best thing ever.