PSA: New set IOs Power Transfer: Chance to Heal Self

[Bopper]

Maybe it's checking AT modifiers

[Caulderone]

56 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Maybe it's checking AT modifiers

Yeah, looks like it is using the AT Heal Other modifier.  I added notes to that Bug thread linked a bit earlier.

 

Apparently, my memory of Panacea being a flat 7.5% base HP heal was just utterly faulty.  I added a Late Edit line to the original post:

"I thought Panacea's heal was a flat 7.5%, but it apparently isn't.  So, PT:Heal is actually better than it for HP recovery.  Panacea is still likely more valuable because of the additional End return."

[macskull]

On 4/7/2020 at 4:10 PM, Mr.Sinister said:

I was saying when you’re hit with a regen debuff, your regen will go down, reducing the benefit of the +regen procs.  This proc however, will be unaffected by that debuff.  Therefore, not only providing double the regenerated hp/s as the +regen uniques, but also circumventing a debuff that the +regen uniques are subject to.  

 

I’m not saying this IO is going to allow me to tank Recluse if I couldn’t already.  Possibly Hamidon though.  I am saying, why is regen tissue a unique and not this IO when it’s 2x as powerful.  It’s completely out of line with other IOs.  It’s existence as a non unique sets a bad precedence for future IOs.  

The big difference here is that while of course heals aren't affected by regen debuffs, it is only a chance for a heal which means it isn't consistent. Regen is a reliable, known value - even after factoring in debuffs you can see exactly what your regen rate is at any given moment and you know that you will get that much HP/sec back. The heal proc, while mathematically superior over time, isn't always going to give you that amount of HP/sec. Sometimes it'll proc more often, and sometimes it won't proc at all for a minute or two while your regen is returning hundreds of HP.

 

Re: tanking Hamidon, Hami does -regen and -heal so it won't make as much difference as you'd think.

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Caulderone said:

Yeah, looks like it is using the AT Heal Other modifier.  I added notes to that Bug thread linked a bit earlier.

 

Apparently, my memory of Panacea being a flat 7.5% base HP heal was just utterly faulty.  I added a Late Edit line to the original post:

"I thought Panacea's heal was a flat 7.5%, but it apparently isn't.  So, PT:Heal is actually better than it for HP recovery.  Panacea is still likely more valuable because of the additional End return."

Panacea's 7.5% endurance. The Superior Scourging Blast proc does a 7.5% heal though.

[SlimPickens]

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

Maybe it's checking AT modifiers

Yes, they do. Ive long noted that Panacea procced for more or less depending on what AT I have it slotted in.

 

Blaster tier was 65, doms and trollers were 79, and defender was 90, and my spider only ticks for 54.

[Werner]

On 4/4/2020 at 11:49 AM, Caulderone said:

...Yes, they are independent of each other...

That's unfortunately not what I'm seeing on my Brute. I have three of them in my build in auto powers, and I have never seen more than one proc at once, while I very frequently see them proc at the same time as my Panacea.

 

I counted 50 Power Transfer procs in 10 minutes total, for 5 PPM, where we'd expect 9 PPM if they were independent.

 

I suspect that what's happening is that the second proc only gets a chance to fire if the first didn't fire, and the third proc only gets a chance to fire if the first two didn't fire. If so, they're effectively 3 PPM, 1.5 PPM, and 0.75 PPM, for a total of 5.25 PPM, very close to the observed result. Perhaps it's a result of the code to prevent it from firing more than once when used in an AoE. Perhaps the three different autopowers are being treated as a single power with three targets. I would guess that's a bug if so.

[Caulderone]

Interesting.  You're likely correct about the AoE prevention mechanism.

 

I bet that it generates a lockout timer of sorts, which is probably not independent per slotted proc.

 

That definitely changes the math on more than one of them.

 

Edit:  I'm doing some testing on Beta right now and will add another post soon.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Caulderone

[Redlynne]

20 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

I bet that it generates a lockout timer of sorts, which is probably not independent per slotted proc.

If so, the mechanism would be via some sort of "does not stack from same caster" which then has a loophole on the Electrical Chain powers since the psudeopets that are doing the procs are technically "not the same caster" even though they're all "caused" by the same power(s).

[Caulderone]

1 hour ago, Werner said:

I counted 50 Power Transfer procs in 10 minutes total, for 5 PPM, where we'd expect 9 PPM if they were independent.

Made a /Regen brute on beta.  Picked all 4 powers that can take PT:Heal (qr, stam, pp, sc).  I made a tab and added only Healing Received.  Doing 2 minutes periods, adding and removing HR to start and stop the tab, using clearchat between, I did 4 runs.

 

Run 1 = 29

Run 2 = 24

Run 3 = 23

Run 4 = 28

 

Expected at 12 PPM from 4 is 24.  So, I'm seeing independent procs like I expected.  At one point, I had 3 +75 green fly texts on screen at once, and 2 +75 many times.  So, I'm not seeing a lockout of more than a fraction of a second if any.

 

I'm going to run some more 2 minute trials after a re-log, and will update again with more tests.

 

Edit1:  Removed the PT:Heal from SC, leaving 3 slotted, so expected 9PPM.  2 minute runs.

Run 1 = 12

Run 2 = 10

So, getting 5-6ppm results there.  Very odd.

 

Edit2:  Removed the PT:Heal from PP, so 1 in QR and 1 in Stam.  6 PPM expected.

Run 1 = 8

Run 2 = 10

Result of 4.5 PPM.

 

Edit3:  1 PT:H in Stam, 1 PT:H in PP, 6 ppm expected

Run 1 = 7

Run 2 = 7

Result of 3.5 PPM

 

Edit4:  1 PT:Heal in SC ( to see if it was giving the bonus with 4 slotted), 3ppm expected

Run 1 = 4

Run 2 = 6

Result with expected deviation of 3ppm, so SC didn't cause the spike in 4 proc numbers.

 

Edit4: 1 PT:Heal in PP to check it.  3ppm expected

Run 1 = 3

Run 2 = 7

Result within expected 3ppm, same as SC.

 

Edit4:  All 4 PT:H slotted again.  1 minute runs.

Run 1 = 11

Run 2 = 8

Run 3 = 10

Within expected deviation of 12 PPM again.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Caulderone

[Werner]

I wonder if it's different on beta. I have literally never seen more than 1 +75 show up at a time. I have them in Stamina, Superior Conditioning, and Physical Perfection.

 

[Caulderone]

39 minutes ago, Werner said:

I wonder if it's different on beta. I have literally never seen more than 1 +75 show up at a time. I have them in Stamina, Superior Conditioning, and Physical Perfection.

I don't think it is.  My 2 and 3 slotted PPM match up with your results.  The 4 slotted is where the oddity occurs.

 

That makes me think that there is indeed some kind of very, very short lockout to prevent AoE multi-heal that is causing this.

With 4 auto-powers checking, they are likely rolling over a server tick and rolling past the lockout?

[Cutter]

Is this less-than-expected PPM behaviour likely to be the same when slotting into click powers, or is it more likely an autopower thing? I'm building a Shield/Elec Tank with the intent to eventually have 5 sets of PT slotted (Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch, Chain Induction, Electrifying Fences and Ball Lightning) to cover the self-heal gap somewhat, but if I'm not going to see independent proc checks on all of those powers I may have to rethink.

[Funkenstein]

@Cutter:

It seems to work fine on clicky powers :

I tried it on a elec blast sent (2 heal proc per blast with Entropic Chaos). They both proc reguraly  + the passive in stamina/gamma boost

 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Funkenstein

[Caulderone]

9 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Is this less-than-expected PPM behaviour likely to be the same when slotting into click powers, or is it more likely an autopower thing? I'm building a Shield/Elec Tank with the intent to eventually have 5 sets of PT slotted (Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch, Chain Induction, Electrifying Fences and Ball Lightning) to cover the self-heal gap somewhat, but if I'm not going to see independent proc checks on all of those powers I may have to rethink.

If what we are seeing is a lockout timer, it is very, very short in duration.  Individual click powers like those should not be affected in any way.

 

[Caulderone]

Ok, so this alters the conclusions for more than 1 PT:Heal.  I'm trying to come up with a way to present this and edit into the first post.

 

In auto powers (quick recovery, stamina, superior conditioning, physical perfection):

1 PT:Heal is better than a RT:Regen

4 PT:Heal is great

2 PT:Heal is better than 1PT:Heal and 1 RT:Regen until you have about +20% increased MaxHP, but 1 PT:Heal and 1 RT:Regen is better past that

3 PT:Heal doesn't work out well, the third one isn't doing much

 

Does that look like a reasonable way to put that?  Any alternate suggestions?

 

Edit:  See Bopper's post below.  These suggestions are wrong.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Caulderone

[Caulderone]

On 4/4/2020 at 1:42 PM, twozerofoxtrot said:

Questions for the collective:

 

1) Is there any limit to how much these can collectively proc? I am assuming no.

2) Can two of them proc at once?

3) Is this a great idea, or the greatest idea?

Following up on this again, as my prior answer has proven to be wrong.  Several posts above this one go into details.

[Bopper]

Horrible quality of life thing, but if you log in all 4 will be synced. If you unslot and reslot, you might get all 4 asynchronous and independent. Lame to do every time you log in though haha

Edited April 11, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

I reloaded in with 4 slotted, I have yet to see more than 1 proc

[Bopper]

So for a 3 PPM proc that can't stack you will see the following performance in autos:

 

1 PT Heal: 3 PPM (50% chance at a proc every 10 seconds) | +15% HP per minute

2 PT Heal: 4.5 PPM (2.25 PPM each, 75% chance to proc every 10 seconds) | +22.5% HP per minute

3 PT Heal: 5.25 PPM (1.75 PPM each, 87.5% chance to proc every 10 seconds) | +26.5% HP per minute

4 PT Heal: 5.9375 PPM (1.4375 PPM each, 93.75% chance to proc every 10 seconds) | +29.6875% HP per minute

[Caulderone]

16 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If you unslot and reslot, you might get all 4 asynchronous and independent.

16 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I reloaded in with 4 slotted, I have yet to see more than 1 proc

Ugh.  You are correct.  The act of slotting them desyncs them.  On the same character as I last tested all 4, upon logging in, they were synced and the proc rate dropped a ton.  Your numbers look correct for the results.

 

I'll edit this into the original post.  Basically, unlike expected, the PT:Heal isn't worth it past 1 once you have the +HP accolades.

 

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Caulderone said:

Ugh.  You are correct.  The act of slotting them desyncs them.  On the same character as I last tested all 4, upon logging in, they were synced and the proc rate dropped a ton.  Your numbers look correct for the results.

 

I'll edit this into the original post.  Basically, unlike expected, the PT:Heal isn't worth it past 1 once you have the +HP accolades.

 

As much as it is disappointing, it actually feels like a pretty good mechanic. With 1, it is the best single enhancement for +HP/sec (even better than Panacea). But after that, diminishing returns.

[Caulderone]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

As much as it is disappointing, it actually feels like a pretty good mechanic. With 1, it is the best single enhancement for +HP/sec (even better than Panacea). But after that, diminishing returns.

Yeah, you are correct.  I just feel like a big dope for the OP now.

[Werner]

13 minutes ago, Bopper said:

As much as it is disappointing, it actually feels like a pretty good mechanic. With 1, it is the best single enhancement for +HP/sec (even better than Panacea). But after that, diminishing returns.

Interesting! I don't know if it's the intended behavior, but I guess it's kinda cool. It seemed a little overpowered for it to not be unique, but this lets you slot more without it seeming overpowered. I'll probably respec out of one or two of them when I can be bothered to make such a minor tweak. Thank you for the additional testing, all!

[Bopper]

12 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

Yeah, you are correct.  I just feel like a big dope for the OP now.

Honestly, it feels like it's even better now. Not only do you show it is a must have, but the cost of not being a unique results in diminished returns. You also educate folks on how to game it with unslotting. There is one more thing I want to test that might game it, I'll let you know ....

 

... ok, if you exemplar to where you lose access to the power, then un-exemplar, it will unsync them. However, as soon as you zone, you will re-sync. So no matter what, unslotting/exemplar is very temporary workarounds that ultimately will not be worth it.

[Bopper]

Ultimately, I think Electric Armor wins with its Lightning Field. You can asynchronize by simply detoggle/retoggle. And it's a PBAoE so it can do multiple checks per 10 seconds in mobs.