Blackfeather's Mind Control Updates v1

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Blackfeather said:

Telekinesis Properties

• Remains an enemy targeted toggle, but is now controllable rather than a unidirectional Repel
  • Stay, GoTo, Follow commands, similar to a Mastermind pet

I have NO IDEA how this is even theoretical given the limitations of the underlying game engine and game mechanics.

[Blackfeather]

Just now, Redlynne said:

I have NO IDEA how this is even theoretical given the limitations of the underlying game engine and game mechanics.

Neither do I! It's why I'm suggesting it. 😄

[Redlynne]

Well, there's wishful thinking ... and then there's pie in the sky.

This is requiring pie in the hard vacuum of deep space.

Color me skeptical that it can be done.

[Blackfeather]

7 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Well, there's wishful thinking ... and then there's pie in the sky.

This is requiring pie in the hard vacuum of deep space.

Color me skeptical that it can be done.

That's fair! Personally I think it makes the most sense for Telekinesis to have this level of finesse - being able to deposit enemies around where desired (albeit at a slower pace than say Wormhole) sounds like the ideal for such a power.

 

What kind of engine limitations does this idea run up into, out of curiosity?

[AngriestGhost]

I like the idea of turning Levitate into a conditional AoE.  The cost of running TK (as it currently is) to do so is probably more endurance heavy than leveraging AoE immobilizes, but I am away from my computer and can't look at the numbers right now.  In my opinion, poor AoE damage is Mind's primary issue.  Using two powers to fix the issue isn't ideal, but it does preserve the spirit of the set. 

 

As for all the ideas surrounding TK,  I like many of them but I think simplicity is key.  The idea of a hold in place/repel on demand appeals to me for that reason. We know it can be done with the existing engine.  If the tech for push/pull becomes available that would be even better.   Adding variables into it like the number of targets and the use of  Levitate will look likely complicate things.  I imagine that as it checks with each tick, enemies that were initially held may have been jostled out of position and break free. 

[Tugzug]

Those Telekinesis changes are absolutely wild! You're a madman! Just think about how you'd be dooming me to only run Mind Control!

 

Jokes aside, I would honestly make like three new Mind characters if these changes went through--but they're very ambitious... Considering CoH's history of spaghetti on the menu, I'm not sure. But if this is possible, I'd be very interested.

 

Also, anything that makes Sleep relevant on teams is always gonna get my support.

[Blackfeather]

7 hours ago, Tugzug said:

Those Telekinesis changes are absolutely wild! You're a madman! Just think about how you'd be dooming me to only run Mind Control!

 

Jokes aside, I would honestly make like three new Mind characters if these changes went through--but they're very ambitious... Considering CoH's history of spaghetti on the menu, I'm not sure. But if this is possible, I'd be very interested.

 

Also, anything that makes Sleep relevant on teams is always gonna get my support.

Thanks! I'm aware that the changes do sound rather large, but I thought that they'd fit the way Mind Control works. At least for Telekinesis: I've heard that vectored knockback is now a thing - it's how that April Fool's Brawl power was able to knock enemies in different directions.

 

It made me wonder if a similar system were possible for dragging enemies around. If it is possible (not saying it'd be easy to do of course), then it'd be amazing if it were the case for sure. That being said, the only real way to get confirmation one way or another is to have a dev comment on it; if I can inspire any one of them to respond...well, that'd be absolutely amazing. 😄

 

And yeah! Sleeps are great solo, but they can be a bit harder to work with in fast paced groups - making enemies prone helps to provide a form of control in those kinds of teams. A short-lived stun when damaged by Mind Control's Terrify/Levitate also means that they can be strengthened on command, adapting to the situation.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Artex4232]

I have played a Mind/Empathy Controller since closed beta before live. Back in the yester-year sleep did not insta drop if damaged it went to stun or had a high chance for stun. Jack called it overpowered and it changed before even the jump start weekend. I have always struggled to find value with Sleep and Confuse in groups. I play MMOs to play with folks, not a fan of running about solo; however I can appreciate the need to allow for functionality with both play styles. My concerns with the set are as follows:

 

- Sleep - About two seconds into most group play it is rendered mostly without a purpose

- Confuse - I should have looked before typing this, it used to take XP and Influence away ergo most groups are not excited by this set

- Dominate - A great power, even its burlier sibling Total Domination work well in groups, sure it takes time to recharge but I could build with recharge in mind

- Telekinesis - Lots of fun and one I enjoy using as long as I am in the right map or area, makes it rather situational

 

All of the above lead me to build my toon both pre Issue 1 and now with none of the powers save Telekinesis in the build. I will admit when the villains came out I felt like their use of Mind Control was far superior to the hero side. All of that said when I started on Homecoming I still rolled my Mind/Emp hero. I would say play around with options, toss them on the test server and see what feedback comes in. I would love to see a refresh of the power set and a consideration for the degree of situational use each power has.

 

Thanks 

[Blackfeather]

23 hours ago, Artex4232 said:

I have played a Mind/Empathy Controller since closed beta before live. Back in the yester-year sleep did not insta drop if damaged it went to stun or had a high chance for stun. Jack called it overpowered and it changed before even the jump start weekend. I have always struggled to find value with Sleep and Confuse in groups. I play MMOs to play with folks, not a fan of running about solo; however I can appreciate the need to allow for functionality with both play styles. My concerns with the set are as follows:

 

- Sleep - About two seconds into most group play it is rendered mostly without a purpose

- Confuse - I should have looked before typing this, it used to take XP and Influence away ergo most groups are not excited by this set

- Dominate - A great power, even its burlier sibling Total Domination work well in groups, sure it takes time to recharge but I could build with recharge in mind

- Telekinesis - Lots of fun and one I enjoy using as long as I am in the right map or area, makes it rather situational

 

All of the above lead me to build my toon both pre Issue 1 and now with none of the powers save Telekinesis in the build. I will admit when the villains came out I felt like their use of Mind Control was far superior to the hero side. All of that said when I started on Homecoming I still rolled my Mind/Emp hero. I would say play around with options, toss them on the test server and see what feedback comes in. I would love to see a refresh of the power set and a consideration for the degree of situational use each power has.

 

Thanks 

Welcome to the forums! Hopefully you liked the proposed updates - the Sleep-inflicting powers were one of the aspects I focused on here, amongst other powers such as Telekinesis. If you've any other suggestions about Mind Control from experience, do post them!

[Burnt Toast]

Three Mind Control topics started within 24 hours of one another.......

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Three Mind Control topics started within 24 hours of one another.......

Mine was inspired by @Blackfeather, so ... go figure?

I just didn't want to muddle conversation over here with my ideas, so I posted my own thread.

[Blackfeather]

2 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Three Mind Control topics started within 24 hours of one another.......

Ideas inspire ideas that inspire ideas that inspire ideas...it's definitely great that there's a lot of people who want to improve the powerset, and that they have their own ideas on how to get there! 😄

[Burnt Toast]

12 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Ideas inspire ideas that inspire ideas that inspire ideas...it's definitely great that there's a lot of people who want to improve the powerset, and that they have their own ideas on how to get there! 😄

Or you could have just posted in those threads....

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Burnt Toast said:

Or you could have just posted in those threads....

[Bopper]

16 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Three Mind Control topics started within 24 hours of one another.......

For what its worth, my PPM Guide didnt start as a PPM guide. I was one of 3 different threads created on the topic within 24 hours or so, and someone commented that a dev should consolidate them, or close them, or something like that. Either way, glad they didn't.

 

There were so many similar threads because so many people had questions on PPM and nobody had answers. In time, the thread evolved into a test thread for those who might take time to get numbers and reverse engineer the correct mechanics, and those findings was the basis of what the guide would eventually become.

 

Long story short, you never know what can happen.

[Blackfeather]

8 minutes ago, Burnt Toast said:

Or you could have just posted in those threads....

Cheer up! At least it's not as bad as all those Force Field forum posts. 😉

[SaddestGhost]

Steering this conversation back to something constructive... of all the alterations people have suggested what are the favorites/priorities for people?

 

• The first is reducing Mass Confusion's recharge.  90-120 sec is the range I'd like to see.  This would provide Mind with a solid every mob hard control.
• The second is a global change to Sleep powers.  My preference is for a chance to reapply sleep after some period, a lingering drowsy effect, though it doesn't fit Salt Crystals thematically.  Barring that I would support a chance for stun upon waking (unenhancable, 3-4 seconds duration).
• Telekinesis... In this order: up the target cap, reduce the endurance cost (possibly an additional cost per target similar to Repel), implement some control over the repel.
• Levitate synergizing with TK for some AoE damage.  Perhaps a small AoE with a cap of 5 or so.

[Blackfeather]

50 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

The second is a global change to Sleep powers.  My preference is for a chance to reapply sleep after some period, a lingering drowsy effect, though it doesn't fit Salt Crystals thematically.  Barring that I would support a chance for stun upon waking (unenhancable, 3-4 seconds duration).

Personally I think it makes sense to make any secondary effects of Sleeps customised depending on the effect it's abstracted as, per the suggestions in this thread. For example, Salt Crystals would be better being more durable, its duration shortening with every attack a slept enemy takes, due to them being trapped in a fragile prison.

 

In comparison, a power that actually causes an enemy to fall asleep (such as Mesmerize and Mass Hypnosis) would make sense to be flavoured as going prone, and being forced to get up, hence the suggestion of it in the original post.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, SaddestGhost said:

The first is reducing Mass Confusion's recharge.  90-120 sec is the range I'd like to see.

I would be satisfied with 180s base recharge on Mass Confusion with no change in duration.

 

The most hilarious alternative I can think of is to remake Mass Consfusion in the mold of Telekinesis, rather than as a copy of Total Domination ... thereby making Mass Confusion an anchored toggle with a 60s recharge once toggled off.  It would basically amount to "World of Confusion at a distance" for Mind Control and would in effect "move around" with the anchored $Target as they turn on their former allies (and their former allies do the same when the anchor $Target gets close enough to them).  To be honest, now that I've even thought of this one, I kind of want to see Mass Confusion remade in this fashion, so it doesn't suffer the possibility of becoming a perma lockdown via Confuse rather than Hold.

5 hours ago, SaddestGhost said:

The second is a global change to Sleep powers.

I'm actually okay with how Mass Hypnosis works right now.  The only thing I'd want to add to it is an enormous -Perception debuff (ideally with an aggro wipe of anyone outside the debuffed Perception range upon casting taking effect), that way you can get close to sleeping $Targets without them aggro-ing upon you while they're asleep.

5 hours ago, SaddestGhost said:

Telekinesis... In this order: up the target cap, reduce the endurance cost (possibly an additional cost per target similar to Repel), implement some control over the repel.

At this point, I'd be happy with increasing the Max Targets cap, reducing the endurance cost to something SANE ... and just simply ELIMINATING the Repel factor in its entirety.  If you want to move $Targets around, use Teleport Foe for the job, not Telekinesis.  The Repel element of the legacy formulation is so self-gimping/self-defeating that it's a travesty it's still around.  Get rid of Repel on Telekinesis already!!!!

[Blackfeather]

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'm actually okay with how Mass Hypnosis works right now.  The only thing I'd want to add to it is an enormous -Perception debuff (ideally with an aggro wipe of anyone outside the debuffed Perception range upon casting taking effect), that way you can get close to sleeping $Targets without them aggro-ing upon you while they're asleep.

Hmm...on the one hand, it does make sense, but on the other, it does make you wonder what Fortunata Hypnosis' proc of placating is supposed to do, if anything, hahah.

[SaddestGhost]

30 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Hmm...on the one hand, it does make sense, but on the other, it does make you wonder what Fortunata Hypnosis' proc of placating is supposed to do, if anything, hahah.

To my knowledge, it doesn't work.  I've tried it against some Nemesis Jaegers and never saw a break in their attacks.

[Redlynne]

3 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

it does make you wonder what Fortunata Hypnosis' proc of placating is supposed to do, if anything, hahah.

Waste another slot that could have been useful (in Mass Hypnosis).

I wonder if it even works in Static Field, where it ought to be doing something to keep $Targets suppressed.

[Blackfeather]

8 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Waste another slot that could have been useful (in Mass Hypnosis).

I wonder if it even works in Static Field, where it ought to be doing something to keep $Targets suppressed.

Might be a good idea for the devs to look into getting the proc working properly first in that case - I do think that the Sleep powers would be better off doing different things from Fortunata Hypnosis myself. I think the idea behind it is to stop aggro? I know it describes itself as a Placate, but those are broken by attacks anyway to my knowledge, which sounds...not helpful.

[Blackfeather]

On 4/5/2020 at 8:55 AM, SaddestGhost said:

Telekinesis... In this order: up the target cap, reduce the endurance cost (possibly an additional cost per target similar to Repel), implement some control over the repel.

Any thoughts on the implementations I proposed in the original post along with the one I made some time afterwards after some feedback?

[Chirikiti]

Lleave Mind alone. It's fine the way it is. People should play to it's strengths not try to make it closer to other sets they are used to. I just freakin knew people couldn't leave well enough alone and would start fiddling.

 

 

 

-Number-Six Level 1240 Mind/Psi Dominator