Why is MIND CONTROL so weak?

[Coyote]

15 hours ago, SaddestGhost said:

We know that powers can have their function altered by checking for certain status, granted tokens, or modes (Hidden, InCombat, Grant_Combo_Level1, Swap Ammo, etc.).  We know status/tokens/modes can be granted after some delay (NoPhase after 30 seconds in Nebulous Form, Hibernate, etc).  We then make TK with a variety of modes (TK1: mag 3 hold, 1.0 endurance/sec, TK2: mag 4 hold, 2.0 endurance/sec,  TK3: mag 6 hold, 3.5 endurance/sec); the power itself will set each mode after a fixed amount of time and swap to the higher mag/endurance cost mode.

 

Do we know that this can be done? The details that I recall seeing on powers do have the ability to set up multiple Hold levels on a target, escalating with time.... but I don't recall seeing a way to CHANGE the base stats of the power regarding activation. Now, different powers CAN be activated from the same base power like fast snipe vs insta snipe, but that's checked at power activation. Is it really possible for a toggle to change its user-affecting statistics like the Endurance cost AFTER it has been activated? I don't know that it can't be done, but I don't recall seeing a power where this shows that it CAN be done.

[Redlynne]

 

For instance, if we up the target cap, does it infringe on the role of Total Domination?

Challenge accepted.

Let's do some napkin math comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges when comparing the two powers then, shall we?

 

 

 

Max Targets

Telekinesis: 5 (currently) ... 10 or 16 (proposed)

Total Domination: 16 (currently)

 

Radius

Telekinesis: 10 ft (currently) ... 15 ft (proposed)

Total Domination: 20 ft (currently)

 

Endurance Cost (comparison)

Telekinesis: 3.12 endurance per second toggle (currently) ... 2.08 endurance per second toggle (proposed with removal of Repel factor)

Total Domination: 15.6 endurance per click

Toggle duration of 5 seconds (currently) or 7.5 seconds (proposed) equals total endurance cost of using Total Domination

 

Duration and Magnitude

Telekinesis: 1.397s mag 3 Hold that does not stack with no chance of Overpower (currently)

Total Domination: 14.9s mag 3 Hold with 20% chance of 11.175s mag 1 Hold on Overpower (currently)

 

Invention Sets

Telekinesis: no (currently) ... Hold and Controller ATOs (proposed)

Total Domination: Hold and Controller ATOs (currently)

 

Recharge

Telekinesis: 60s

Total Domination: 240s

 

 

 

Total Domination advantages (Total Domination vs Telekinesis):

Max Targets (16 vs 10 or 16)

Radius (20f vs 10 ft or 15 ft)

Endurance Cost (15.6 for 14.9s vs 15.6 for 5s or 15.6 for 7.5s)

Duration (14.9s Click vs 1.397s Toggle)

Overpower (Yes vs No)

Invention Sets (Yes vs No or Yes)

 

 

 

So currently ... Total Domination:

• Hits 3.2x as many $Targets
• Has 2x the Radius
• Has 3x the Duration for the same Endurance Cost
• Recharges 0.25x as fast
• Can Overpower while Telekinesis cannot
• Can slot Inventions while Telekinesis cannot
  • 3.2 * 2 * 3 * 0.25 = 4.8x as powerful as Telekinesis ... not even including Overpower and Invention slotting advantages

 

With the more restricted proposed changes to Telekinesis ... Total Domination:

• Hits 1.6x as many $Targets (max 10 targets for Telekinesis)
• Has 2x the Radius (10ft radius for Telekinesis)
• Has 3x the Duration for the same Endurance Cost (2.08/s with Repel effect removed)
• Recharges 0.25x as fast
• Can Overpower while Telekinesis cannot
• Both can slot Inventions
  • 1.6 * 2 * 3 * 0.25 = 2.4x as powerful as Telekinesis ... not even including Overpower advantage

 

With the more expansive proposed changes to Telekinesis ... Total Domination:

• Hits 1x as many $Targets (max 16 targets for Telekinesis)
• Has 1.33x the Radius (15ft radius for Telekinesis)
• Has 2x the Duration for the same Endurance Cost (no change in endurance cost)
• Recharges 0.25x as fast
• Can Overpower while Telekinesis cannot
• Both can slot Inventions
  • 1 * 1.33 * 2 * 0.25 = 0.665x as powerful as Telekinesis ... not even including Overpower advantage

 

 

So clearly, there's going to be some sort of "happy middle ground" between those two options of restricted vs expansive proposed changes, relative to the "value" that Total Domination has.  The objective here is to move the "multiplier factor" for Total Domination to be closer to parity (nearer a 1x factor without going below a 1x factor) relative to Telekinesis.  That way Telekinesis "pays more" for similar performance as a lower tier power (Level 12 vs Level 18 required).  In which case, the way to bring Telekinesis "up to" Total Domination power levels without surpassing Total Domination power levels is to do the following to Telekinesis:

 

Max Targets changed from 5 to 10.

Radius remains 10 ft.

Endurance Cost changed from 3.12/s to 2.08/s and the Repel effect is removed entirely.

Duration and Magnitude remain unchanged.

Telekinesis cannot Overpower (unchanged).

Telekinesis allowed to slot Hold and Controller ATO sets.

 

Using these parameters as a blended mix 'n' match of the restrictive and expansive changes options yields the following differential between Total Domination and Telekinesis:

• Hits 1.6x as many $Targets (max 10 targets for Telekinesis)
• Has 2x the Radius (10ft radius for Telekinesis)
• Has 2x the Duration for the same Endurance Cost (2.08/s with Repel effect removed on Telekinesis)
• Recharges 0.25x as fast
• Can Overpower while Telekinesis cannot
• Both can slot Inventions
  • 1.6 * 2 * 2 * 0.25 = 1.6x as powerful as Telekinesis ... not even including Overpower advantage

Which I look at and start thinking that's the Goldilocks Point for what you can do to improve Telekinesis without "overwhelming" Total Domination in the process.

 

 

 

However, doing this analysis right here has suggested another possibility for how to change Telekinesis which is DEFINITELY going to be "out of the box thinking" that I'll be writing up here at some point.  Just you wait ...  😎

[SaddestGhost]

43 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Do we know that this can be done? The details that I recall seeing on powers do have the ability to set up multiple Hold levels on a target, escalating with time.... but I don't recall seeing a way to CHANGE the base stats of the power regarding activation. Now, different powers CAN be activated from the same base power like fast snipe vs insta snipe, but that's checked at power activation. Is it really possible for a toggle to change its user-affecting statistics like the Endurance cost AFTER it has been activated? I don't know that it can't be done, but I don't recall seeing a power where this shows that it CAN be done.

I am making an assumption here that I'll admit requires more understanding of how things operate under the hood, but the thing to springs to mind for me is toggle suppression.  For instance, Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion remain active when the user is put to sleep.  They continue to apply other mez protection to the user, but no longer provides defense/resist.  Only part of the power cancels when held/stunned/slept and resumes when those effects expire.  It may be necessary to code it in such a way that tokens that suppress a portion of the power are granted upon activation and expire after a set period.

[Redlynne]

18 hours ago, SaddestGhost said:

Brainstorming is a vital part of creative problem solving work.  After you have a basket of ideas you weed out the good from the bad.

 

12 hours ago, AngriestGhost said:

For instance, if we up the target cap, does it infringe on the role of Total Domination? How do we address that?  How long should a player be able to sustain it?  How long is reasonable for it to be a positioning tool without replacing Total Domination?

 

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

However, doing this analysis right here has suggested another possibility for how to change Telekinesis which is DEFINITELY going to be "out of the box thinking"

 

So ... as promised (threatened?) ... how about trying this on for size?

 

Change Telekinesis from an anchored(!) Target AoE to an anchorless(!) Cone Facing power.

 

 

 

Okay, do I have everyone's attention?

After saying something like that, I would hope so ...  🤔

 

 

---

 

 

So the first thing to figure out is how large the Cone ought to be relative to the Target AoE.  Since the Range is going to remain fixed (at 50 ft, before and after), all that needs to be done is to figure out the area of a 10 ft radius circle and then solve for how much angle ought to be given to a 50 ft cone to achieve approximately the same area.

 

10² π = 314.159 ft²

50² π / 24 = 327.249 ft²

50² π / 25 = 314.159 ft²

360 / 24 = 15º

360 / 25 = 14.4º

 

So we're looking at either a 14.4º Cone to achieve EXACTLY the same area as the 10 ft 360º Circle Radius ... or allow a 15º Cone for an ever so slight upward bump in area (equivalent to a 10.2 ft 360º radius, basically).  In practice, the 0.6º difference between the two amounts to a mere 0.3º "widening" to either side which really isn't enough to fret over since it's 0.26ft worth of extra width on either side at 50ft range, so hardly game balance impacting.

 

I'm willing to say a 50 ft Range 15º Cone equates close enough to a 10 ft Radius 360º Target AoE for area coverage equivalence is good enough for our purposes here.

 

50 ft Range 15º Cone from a 10 ft Radius 360º Target AoE.

 

Everyone with me so far?

 

 

---

 

 

In order to get an anchorless Cone Facing power, we can look at the example of Regrowth in Nature Affinity to compare and contrast with a Ranged Cone power (that requires a $Target) such as Heavy Burst for Arachnos Soldiers.

 

Here are the differences between these two implementations.

 

Regrowth

• Entities Affected: Caster, Friend
• Entities Autohit: Caster, Friend
• Target: Caster

Heavy Burst

• Entities Affected: Foe
• Entities Autohit:
• Target: Foe

 

---

 

 

So in order to implement a change to Telekinesis in order to switch from anchored Target AoE to being an anchorless Cone power, here is how I would rewrite the parameters for Telekinesis, with the changes highlighted in font size increased bold text for ease of access and clarity and obviousness.

 

Telekinesis

Level: 12

Type: Toggle

PvE damage scale: 0.000000

Accuracy: 1

Modes required:

Modes disallowed: Disable_All, Defiant

Range: 50 feet

Activate period: 0.5 seconds

Interrupt Time: -

Cast time: 1.13 seconds

Recharge time: 60 seconds

Endurance cost: 1.56

Attack types:

Effect Area: Cone

Radius: 50 feet

Arc: 15 degrees

Max targets hit: 10

Entities affected: Foe

Entities autohit: Foe

Target: Caster

Target visibility: Line of Sight

Notify mobs: Always

 

Enhancements allowed: Endurance, Hold, Range, Recharge Reduction

Invention Sets allowed: Hold, ATO

 

Self:

• Grant power: Temporary_Powers.Temporary_Powers.KillTk

Target:

• 1.397s Held (mag 3)
• 1 Repel for 0.75s
• 0.75s Held (mag 3)

 

---

 

 

Note that the endurance cost remains unchanged and the Repel factor remains unchanged.  All that gets changed is increasing the number of max targets from the insulting 5 to a reasonable 10 along with converting the power from a 10 ft radius Target AoE (that requires a $Target) into being a 50 ft 15º Cone (that does not require a $Target) ... and adding Hold enhancement and Hold sets and Controller ATO sets to the slotting.

 

That's it.

That's all that needs to be edited and changed.

A mere 8 changes ... and 3 of those changes are on the enhancement slotting allowed.

 

Yes, Hold enhancement (proper/singular) does "absolutely nothing" for Telekinesis due to the "does not stack from same caster" factor on the Hold effect, so the duration is longer but the mag still cannot stack deeper to greater mag ... hence why Telekinesis did not have Hold enhancement as an option pre-Inventions (which makes sense) when all you had were TO/DO/SO/HO enhancements.  But as soon as you put set procs (particularly damage and +2 mag Hold and Absorb procs!) and ATO sets (Controller and Dominator for the respective archetypes) into the mix, that calculus changes dramatically.  Preventing the slotting of those enhancements, especially the procs and ATO sets, flat out ROBS Telekinesis of not only potential but also differentiation and personalization options between builds and strategies ... hence why it is time to allow for Hold enhancements as well as Hold and ATO sets to be slotted into Telekinesis.

 

 

 

Now, one really HUGE change that this would make to the power is that you'd be able to toggle it on and leave it on full time, even without a $Target around to be affected by it (at a ruinous cost to your endurance, mind you, since it would still be a base 3.12/s cost).  Also, it will be quite possible to Repel affected $Targets beyond the Cone range/radius if there isn't intercepting terrain around to "push back" against the Repel effect because the Cone has a limited range originating from the caster.  This means that unlike the previous Target AoE implementation, affected $Target(s) do not Repel away "forever" past draw distance until they drop targeting due to sheer distance.  In order to maintain the Hold Cone on $Target(s), the Mind Controller needs to stay close(-ish) to the affected $Target(s) AND ALSO needs to maintain their facing towards the $Targets in order to keep them Held.  That's because the Cone is a 15º wide forward facing that turns when the caster avatar turns ... so while Telekinesis (Cone) is toggled on, you can't spin around and buff someone beside/behind you without also spinning the orientation of the Cone off into a different direction.

 

And just to be clear, the Cone is aimed by the avatar facing ... NOT by the camera angle/facing.  So you can keep your avatar stationary and slew your camera angle around (so camera look but not mouse look, to be specific of the distinction here) and not upset the direction you're aiming the Cone.  But as soon as your character avatar changes facing, the Telekinesis (Cone) will change aiming with them, potentially dropping $Targets out of the Cone.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that converting Telekinesis into an anchorless Cone over an anchored Target AoE while retaining all other parameters "as is" (aside from the expansion in slotting options) simply makes TOO MUCH SENSE™ in part because of how the Repel mechanic works.  Since the Repel is pushing $Targets away from the Caster (still) with the Cone configuration those $Targets do not inherently "spread out of the AoE" all on their own.  If the Cone is redirected/aimed elsewhere then they'll drop out of the effect, but so long as the Cone remains on them they won't "push out of the area" to the sides (although they could be Repelled beyond the range distance of the Cone).

 

Additionally, by converting Telekinesis into a Cone power, the ability to slot Range enhancements into Telekinesis suddenly gains incredible value(!) since the Range of Cones CAN BE enhanced, increasing their area.  An increase of 1.5x Range will effectively DOUBLE the area of effect held at risk by the power.  At +60% Range enhancement (the ED limit for Schedule B enhancements like Range) this increases the Cone radius from 50 ft out to 80 ft ... which just so happens to be the stock 'n' standard distance for ranged attacks (80 ft), so even that lines up well.

 

Essentially you wind up trading "unlimited reach" (once toggled on as a Target AoE) for a more "limited reach" (once toggled on as a Cone) in exchange for a 2x increase in the max targets (from the insulting 5 to a more reasonable 10) in which the Repel "spread" becomes more of a non-issue (so long as the caster remains stationary).

 

To put it mildly ... with such a change there is (in my not so humble opinion) almost no reasonable objections that can be made along the lines of Telekinesis (as a toggle Cone without an anchor) being put in direct competition with Total Domination (a click Target AoE that requires a $Target) ... even though both are Hold powers.

 

YES ... you could potential toggle on Telekinesis and leave it toggled on indefinitely (effectively making the power "perma" as far as that goes) ... but the endurance cost for doing so would quite literally be the highest in the game (3.12/s base) for the privilege of doing so (the word I'm looking for is "ruinously expensive").  However, Telekinesis would be UNIQUE and still "finicky" to manage but would be more predictable/learnable for Players to master and control ... so Win, Win, Win from my perspective.

 

 

---

 

 

I now yield back the floor on to the topic of discussion after the whole WALL OF TEXT CRITS YOU!!! performance above.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Redlynne

[The_Cheeseman]

Okay, so toggle powers check every few seconds to see if they are active to reapply their effects for the duration of the check window. Say a toggle checks every second, it applies a 1.1 second effect if the check returns true. Otherwise it stops checking and the effect expires. So that’s how toggles normally work.

 

We could have a toggle power that checks every second to see if it is active on the target, then apply a permanent effect, say hold magnitude, if it is active, and then remove all copies of that effect if it is no longer active. You could do the same thing on the power’s source character, applying an end drain effect, instead.

 

I’m not going to claim that this is a perfect implementation of such a power, but it doesn’t seem wildly outside the realm of possibility, either.

 

By the way, Redlynne, I’m just going to ask you directly: can we perhaps have a pleasant discussion without all the snark? It really makes the conversation feel less collaborative and more competitive.

[noogens2]

This suggestion may be off the wall but what about TK being a toggle anchor that pulls mobs to that location within a certain radius and holds them. That would give the a power different flavor from anything else in the game. The radius can be medium to smallish side for balance purposes. It would be sort of a reverse repel.

Edited April 17, 2020 by noogens2

[Redlynne]

9 minutes ago, noogens2 said:

what about TK being a toggle anchor that pulls mobs to that location within a certain radius and holds them. That would give the a power different flavor from anything else in the game. The radius can be medium to smallish side for balance purposes. It would be sort of a reverse repel.

For the dozenth plus two times ... because the game engine does not support "reverse repel" ... no matter how much we wish it did (and believe me, we wish it did!).

Reverse repel is one of those things that is easy to say in a forum post and which is intuitively obvious when said ... but which the game engine completely fails to allow for or support.

 

You know what happens when you apply negative Repel to something?

You give it protection against Repel ... rather than causing it to move in an opposite vector so as to "negative repel towards" a location.

 

Easy to say.

Doesn't work with the codebase we have.

[SaddestGhost]

8 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Challenge accepted.

Let's do some napkin math comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges when comparing the two powers then, shall we?

[Many maths later...]

Which I look at and start thinking that's the Goldilocks Point for what you can do to improve Telekinesis without "overwhelming" Total Domination in the process.

 

However, doing this analysis right here has suggested another possibility for how to change Telekinesis which is DEFINITELY going to be "out of the box thinking" that I'll be writing up here at some point.  Just you wait ...  😎

This analysis is a good starting point for comparison, but I think its somewhat flawed because of the diminishing returns we encounter in regard to shorter recharges and longer durations.  I'm not certain how to weight those factors, but I do feel the scales wouldn't be linear.  It does put us in the ball park where the numbers can be tweaked after some game play though.

 

4 hours ago, Redlynne said:

 

 

 

So ... as promised (threatened?) ... how about trying this on for size?

 

Change Telekinesis from an anchored(!) Target AoE to an anchorless(!) Cone Facing power.

 

 

 

Okay, do I have everyone's attention?

After saying something like that, I would hope so ...  🤔

 

 

---

[Many details later...]

 

---

Note that the endurance cost remains unchanged and the Repel factor remains unchanged.  All that gets changed is increasing the number of max targets from the insulting 5 to a reasonable 10 along with converting the power from a 10 ft radius Target AoE (that requires a $Target) into being a 50 ft 15º Cone (that does not require a $Target) ... and adding Hold enhancement and Hold sets and Controller ATO sets to the slotting.

 

That's it.

That's all that needs to be edited and changed.

A mere 8 changes ... and 3 of those changes are on the enhancement slotting allowed.

 

Yes, Hold enhancement (proper/singular) does "absolutely nothing" for Telekinesis due to the "does not stack from same caster" factor on the Hold effect, so the duration is longer but the mag still cannot stack deeper to greater mag ... hence why Telekinesis did not have Hold enhancement as an option pre-Inventions (which makes sense) when all you had were TO/DO/SO/HO enhancements.  But as soon as you put set procs (particularly damage and +2 mag Hold and Absorb procs!) and ATO sets (Controller and Dominator for the respective archetypes) into the mix, that calculus changes dramatically.  Preventing the slotting of those enhancements, especially the procs and ATO sets, flat out ROBS Telekinesis of not only potential but also differentiation and personalization options between builds and strategies ... hence why it is time to allow for Hold enhancements as well as Hold and ATO sets to be slotted into Telekinesis.

 

 

 

Now, one really HUGE change that this would make to the power is that you'd be able to toggle it on and leave it on full time, even without a $Target around to be affected by it (at a ruinous cost to your endurance, mind you, since it would still be a base 3.12/s cost).  Also, it will be quite possible to Repel affected $Targets beyond the Cone range/radius if there isn't intercepting terrain around to "push back" against the Repel effect because the Cone has a limited range originating from the caster.  This means that unlike the previous Target AoE implementation, affected $Target(s) do not Repel away "forever" past draw distance until they drop targeting due to sheer distance.  In order to maintain the Hold Cone on $Target(s), the Mind Controller needs to stay close(-ish) to the affected $Target(s) AND ALSO needs to maintain their facing towards the $Targets in order to keep them Held.  That's because the Cone is a 15º wide forward facing that turns when the caster avatar turns ... so while Telekinesis (Cone) is toggled on, you can't spin around and buff someone beside/behind you without also spinning the orientation of the Cone off into a different direction.

 

And just to be clear, the Cone is aimed by the avatar facing ... NOT by the camera angle/facing.  So you can keep your avatar stationary and slew your camera angle around (so camera look but not mouse look, to be specific of the distinction here) and not upset the direction you're aiming the Cone.  But as soon as your character avatar changes facing, the Telekinesis (Cone) will change aiming with them, potentially dropping $Targets out of the Cone.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that converting Telekinesis into an anchorless Cone over an anchored Target AoE while retaining all other parameters "as is" (aside from the expansion in slotting options) simply makes TOO MUCH SENSE™ in part because of how the Repel mechanic works.  Since the Repel is pushing $Targets away from the Caster (still) with the Cone configuration those $Targets do not inherently "spread out of the AoE" all on their own.  If the Cone is redirected/aimed elsewhere then they'll drop out of the effect, but so long as the Cone remains on them they won't "push out of the area" to the sides (although they could be Repelled beyond the range distance of the Cone).

 

Additionally, by converting Telekinesis into a Cone power, the ability to slot Range enhancements into Telekinesis suddenly gains incredible value(!) since the Range of Cones CAN BE enhanced, increasing their area.  An increase of 1.5x Range will effectively DOUBLE the area of effect held at risk by the power.  At +60% Range enhancement (the ED limit for Schedule B enhancements like Range) this increases the Cone radius from 50 ft out to 80 ft ... which just so happens to be the stock 'n' standard distance for ranged attacks (80 ft), so even that lines up well.

 

Essentially you wind up trading "unlimited reach" (once toggled on as a Target AoE) for a more "limited reach" (once toggled on as a Cone) in exchange for a 2x increase in the max targets (from the insulting 5 to a more reasonable 10) in which the Repel "spread" becomes more of a non-issue (so long as the caster remains stationary).

 

To put it mildly ... with such a change there is (in my not so humble opinion) almost no reasonable objections that can be made along the lines of Telekinesis (as a toggle Cone without an anchor) being put in direct competition with Total Domination (a click Target AoE that requires a $Target) ... even though both are Hold powers.

 

YES ... you could potential toggle on Telekinesis and leave it toggled on indefinitely (effectively making the power "perma" as far as that goes) ... but the endurance cost for doing so would quite literally be the highest in the game (3.12/s base) for the privilege of doing so (the word I'm looking for is "ruinously expensive").  However, Telekinesis would be UNIQUE and still "finicky" to manage but would be more predictable/learnable for Players to master and control ... so Win, Win, Win from my perspective.

 

 

---

 

 

I now yield back the floor on to the topic of discussion after the whole WALL OF TEXT CRITS YOU!!! performance above.

I'd really have to get my hands on a working power to see how this suggestion feels.  I imagine it would feel similar to Herdicaning, but significantly easier since you could circle strafe to pick up foes that fell out of the repel area without all of Hurricane's radial repel.  Playing around with TK and Detention Field a long, long time ago, I stumbled upon a trick that reflects this idea a little bit.  Once you've isolated your TK anchor with Detention Field, you could move around the target to direct your TK.  If I recall correctly, moving near or far the anchor didn't do much because the range was considered from the user to anchor.  If Detention Field wasn't a fixed duration it would have been a useful trick, but otherwise it didn't bear fruit.

 

One other thing I would consider is upping the hold duration so that foes that reach the end of the cone don't immediately break free. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by SaddestGhost

[Redlynne]

7 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

This analysis is a good starting point for comparison, but I think its somewhat flawed because of the diminishing returns we encounter in regard to shorter recharges and longer durations.  I'm not certain how to weight those factors, but I do feel the scales wouldn't be linear.  It does put us in the ball park where the numbers can be tweaked after some game play though.

No argument, since it was totally napkin math in which each factor is weighted 1:1 when making cross comparisons.  So not exactly definitive, but useful as a starting point for calculating when "Too Much Is Too Much" in the buffing department for Telekinesis, relative to the performance of Total Domination.

21 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

I'd really have to get my hands on a working power to see how this suggestion feels.

AGREED.

You have to playtest it to get a good sense of how it changes "the game" (so to speak), in large part because HOW the power gets used as a Cone Facing power will determine how effective the power can be.  Strategy and Tactics and relative Positioning would all become factors with how the power "plays" in real time ... all of which are the province of Player Skill.

26 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

I imagine it would feel similar to Herdicaning, but significantly easier since you could circle strafe to pick up foes that fell out of the repel area without all of Hurricane's radial repel.

Similar but different, for sure.

26 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

One other thing I would consider is upping the hold duration so that foes that reach the end of the cone don't immediately break free.

I'm trying to be as conservative as possible with the changes, so as to make the fewest changes that yield the most amount of leverage from those minimal changes (5 to the power parameters, 3 to the enhancements, zero to the power's effects).  That then gives you something to springboard from if additional changes need to be made above and beyond that (later) to account for the differences in Player behaviors and how they tend to "use" the power in its new configuration.

 

Of course, the solution to the "push beyond the Cone range" problem is just to advance your avatar fowards as the affected $Targets get repelled away from you so as to keep the relative distance between you comparable (if not constant) so that you move forwards as they repel backwards away from you.  There will be other little tricks of movement control that could be used on top of that which would have VERY interesting implications for skillful gameplay though ... which I'll leave up to your imagination on how to take advantage of those.  😎

[Redlynne]

On 4/17/2020 at 12:09 PM, Redlynne said:

To put it mildly ... with such a change there is (in my not so humble opinion) almost no reasonable objections that can be made along the lines of Telekinesis (as a toggle Cone without an anchor) being put in direct competition with Total Domination (a click Target AoE that requires a $Target) ... even though both are Hold powers.

NAILED IT.

[Heavysuit]

I've read about 4 pages of this thread and wanted to put my 2 cents in as a fresh Mind/Time Controller and foolishly grabbed TK as soon as it was available.

 

The power is still super helpful in duo missions with my friend, if we get an extra pack or the pack is too dense I would click TK and turn the corner to rest while my stalker duo would keep dpsing the mobs I had slept/held with other powers. TK has this weird effect where when you rest it stays toggled on but drops the enemies until you stand back up then they get sent backwards again (if the anchor is still alive) between mass sleep+mass confuse and the single target ones as well we can que up a TON of assassin strikes. The one thing I wish the power did over anything else, however, is just a dot. Doesn't even need to be particularly large, but in my head if it had a dot wouldn't it proc containment off itself and give some decent dmg+not give dominators too big a buff from the power? We all agree that TK is hot garbage and that Mind/ needs some kind of damage, is there any reason why adding a dot would be bad/unreasonable? It really doesnt even need to be a big dot, because we could then in theory slot in damage IOs and get procs into TK, right? 

[Darkneblade]

Technically Mind Control is psi right? How about insight mechanic? Instead of insight though we could renamed it foresight.

[Golden Azrael]

On 4/9/2020 at 5:43 AM, r0y said:

The powers LOOK like they would be amazing, it covers a lot of control areas... but actual performance is lack-luster.

 

I'm guessing it's the lack of an AoE containment spam (e.g. immob) so building containment one at a time is just tedious and mind-numbing (pun intended).  That coupled with some not-so-fast cast times (Domination being the exception).  Everything takes too long to do for the damage you get, is what it feels like for me.

 

It's pretty universally accepted that Telekenisis (TK) is so BAD that it's an "auto-skip" power.  OK, fine... but where's the "great" power?  I mean, an AoE confuse is pretty cool, but why not go Plant Control and have a better version (albeit a cone)?

 

I'd love to see Telekinesis worked into an AoE immob to help build containment.  Maybe a cone or TAoE version of Levitate, with a immob at the end?  Mass Levitate!  

 

I don't know, one would think that a PSI damage would be great in the early/mid game, like it seems to be for other psi damage sets, but it sure feels very weak (I'm early 30's but have slotted out the three single-target powers with damage sets).  It's just not as "blasty" as gravity, nor as "controllery" as Earth.

 

Earth is so "controllery" that I get there's very little damage it does.  That's a fair trade.  Gravity isn't very controllery, so it does damage; again, seems fine.  Mind does neither control nor damage (yes, yes, it has all those AoE control powers).  Problem with Mind is the AoE's that do no damage have far too long a recharge.  Make them mini-nukes (the hold, at least) or something.  If the recharge was lowered on the SLEEP, that would be something.  Ghetto AoE containment (for a millisecond, as your team ruins it by attacking with all their damaging AoE's).

 

It's just a frustrating set for me.  Maybe I play the game too fast, as it reminds me of traps... slow and boring, but at least traps ended up doing awesome things...

 

I'll keep at it, fully slot up the AoE's (the Fear Cone is the only really decent power, but it's recharge is so long!).

 

Why does it have such horribly long recharges all over?

 

/rant

 

Please look at helping this set.  I understand it's awesome on a Dominator (I've heard), but on a Controller, it kind of sucks.

Define 'Weak.'  Every AT or Power set has it's 'weak spot.'  If Damage throughput is your idea of 'power' then roll a fire blaster?  But true power is in the control sets of Controller and Domi and locking down huge mobs. 

 

Sure, it may take a while to 'do them' but it's fundamentally about: Blast dead 1 sec vs artfully pulling the legs off the spider.  It's like driving 'slower' vs fast.  It's a mind set kind of thing.  Pun intended.

 

Do you like squashing spiders or pulling their legs off?  Discuss.

 

Sleep is one of the most powerful powers in the game.  (As long as you don't have people on your team spamming AoEs...)

 

You can put mobs into a deep sleep and take...them...out....one by one.

 

And on Domi?  Godly.

 

Azrael.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[KelvinKole]

On 4/17/2020 at 2:38 PM, Redlynne said:

For the dozenth plus two times ... because the game engine does not support "reverse repel" ... no matter how much we wish it did (and believe me, we wish it did!).

Reverse repel is one of those things that is easy to say in a forum post and which is intuitively obvious when said ... but which the game engine completely fails to allow for or support.

 

You know what happens when you apply negative Repel to something?

You give it protection against Repel ... rather than causing it to move in an opposite vector so as to "negative repel towards" a location.

 

Easy to say.

Doesn't work with the codebase we have.

While reverse repel can't be done, maybe there's a substitute effect that would yield the same results? I'm thinking a taunt and range debuff that would force mobs in a radius to run to the target. Could cast on an ally tank, if the aggro cap could be ignored, to force more mobs to run to them. Or, cast on an enemy target and force mobs to run to that location. 

 

Sorry, I know your post is 2 months old but the thread was bumped and I just saw it. Got me thinking. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by KelvinKole

[r0y]

3 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

While reverse repel can't be done, maybe there's a substitute effect that would yield the same results? I'm thinking a taunt and range debuff that would force mobs in a radius to run to the target. Could cast on an ally tank, if the aggro cap could be ignored, to force more mobs to run to them. Or, cast on an enemy target and force mobs to run to that location. 

 

Sorry, I know your post is 2 months old but the thread was bumped and I just saw it. Got me thinking. 

Are you describing the Crab Spider Soldier's Omega Maneuver?  That is far too slow to be anything but a curiosity in quick 8-man teams.  The best use of them is when the player runs ahead (as most all players like to do) so they can use their powers and not see them unneeded because everyone is too tricked out.

 

So, mechanically speaking (from limited knowledge), it seems the omega maneuver is the "reverse repel" that cheeses it with a pet who taunts (I believe).

[KelvinKole]

49 minutes ago, r0y said:

Are you describing the Crab Spider Soldier's Omega Maneuver?  That is far too slow to be anything but a curiosity in quick 8-man teams.  The best use of them is when the player runs ahead (as most all players like to do) so they can use their powers and not see them unneeded because everyone is too tricked out.

 

So, mechanically speaking (from limited knowledge), it seems the omega maneuver is the "reverse repel" that cheeses it with a pet who taunts (I believe).

Something like that, yes. But actually I know the water control set over on the streamers server as a forced movement ability that works better, now that I think about it. 

[Carnifax]

10 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

While reverse repel can't be done, maybe there's a substitute effect that would yield the same results? I'm thinking a taunt and range debuff that would force mobs in a radius to run to the target. Could cast on an ally tank, if the aggro cap could be ignored, to force more mobs to run to them. Or, cast on an enemy target and force mobs to run to that location. 

 

Sorry, I know your post is 2 months old but the thread was bumped and I just saw it. Got me thinking. 

I wonder what would happen if you combined "huge taunt" with the "only affecting self" flag things like Afterburner apply. Would the mobs be attracted to the taunt spot, or would the pet AI instead cause them to run away like idiots?

 

Im betting its be the sort of "run, change my mind. No, ill run. No, but its so pretty" you see with Tank taunt auras sometimes.

[Peacemoon]

On 5/5/2020 at 2:10 PM, Heavysuit said:

I've read about 4 pages of this thread and wanted to put my 2 cents in as a fresh Mind/Time Controller and foolishly grabbed TK as soon as it was available.

 

The power is still super helpful in duo missions with my friend, if we get an extra pack or the pack is too dense I would click TK and turn the corner to rest while my stalker duo would keep dpsing the mobs I had slept/held with other powers. TK has this weird effect where when you rest it stays toggled on but drops the enemies until you stand back up then they get sent backwards again (if the anchor is still alive) between mass sleep+mass confuse and the single target ones as well we can que up a TON of assassin strikes. The one thing I wish the power did over anything else, however, is just a dot. Doesn't even need to be particularly large, but in my head if it had a dot wouldn't it proc containment off itself and give some decent dmg+not give dominators too big a buff from the power? We all agree that TK is hot garbage and that Mind/ needs some kind of damage, is there any reason why adding a dot would be bad/unreasonable? It really doesnt even need to be a big dot, because we could then in theory slot in damage IOs and get procs into TK, right? 

Adding damage to TK is an interesting idea that I hadn’t thought of. Great suggestion and yes, would then allow the slotting of damage IOs! (Ranged or AoE)

[Redlynne]

3 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Adding damage to TK is an interesting idea that I hadn’t thought of. Great suggestion and yes, would then allow the slotting of damage IOs! (Ranged or AoE)

If you add damage to Telekinesis (a DoT Crush like effect) you'd be adding Target AoE sets to the slotting.

[Peacemoon]

6 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

If you add damage to Telekinesis (a DoT Crush like effect) you'd be adding Target AoE sets to the slotting.

Yes that would be good... and some awesome crushing damage for robots!

[Redlynne]

32 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Yes that would be good... and some awesome crushing damage for robots!

True.  Adding a source of Smashing Damage to Mind Control, even if it's a "light DoT" akin to Crushing Field (which is like single digits per damage tick) would add up over time to "useful" amounts.  Instead of being a PBAoE Damage Aura, it would be a Target AoE Damage Aura kind of thing.  Of course, once you open up Target AoE set slotting, that means a delicious pile o' procs ... including Energy, Lethal, Smashing, Fire and -Resistance debuffing becomes available from Target AoE Damage sets ... to say nothing of what you'd have available to you from Hold sets or even Controller/Dominator ATOs (if those are ever allowed to be slotted into Telekinesis).

 

Another point to consider would be removing the restriction on stacking Hold Mag using Telekinesis.  If you allow the Hold Mag to stack, not only can the Mag stack "deeper" than a mere Mag 3 but also enable slotting of Hold enhancements and sets so as to make that Hold stack deeper.  It wouldn't stack to Mag 6/9/12/15 instantly ... but it could with enough Hold duration enhancement(!).  Only restriction I'd want to put on Telekinesis if doing that to it would be to make Domination NOT apply extra Mag on Telekinesis for Dominators (so at most they'd see the same amount of Mag stack increase as Controllers, rather than double, using this paradigm).

Mischief Managed.

[capricorpse]

Mind Control needs some love for sure.  But it's also cool in its own way. 

 

I will say, I love telekinesis.  I think it's such a cool and unique power, and I worry about all the sets being balanced to a point of becoming generic.  As someone said earlier, becoming only cosmetically different but functionally identical.  

 

That said, it definitely could use some tweaking!  One thing i see not being discussed as much is, TK is amazing in short doses.  I love to just pick em up and wait 2 seconds so the bunch goes back onto the Ice Patch/Rain of Fire/Whirlpool, etc.  This is also a common use of telekinetic powers in comics.  I think the recharge should be reduced, to encourage this approach with the power.   Yes, it's also great for pinning enemies in a corner for the whole fight, but that may not come up as often as you'd like.  I also like the idea of giving it a DoT effect, or what about some smashing damage whenever they bump into something on the map, becoming DoT when pinned?  That would make the most sense to me. 

 

OR, to make the Repel more interesting, what if it worked like this - You activate Telekinesis, and for the duration, you get a click-target circle (like Teleport) and that becomes the source of the repel? Instead of moving yourself around, is it possible to just click around every couple of seconds to move them (or keep them stationary), in true telekinetic fashion?  I understand from earlier responses that the "implosion/reverse-repel" doesn't work with the way the game is coded, but could this?

 

what I love about CoH is how many different types of powers there are.  I think it'd be kinda lame to replace TK with a target AoE disorient or something that's found in other sets.

 

However, the only thing that's been brought up to replace it that made me excited was a targeted AoE version of Levitate.  That doesn't exist yet (outside of the close ranged Psi Melee one) and would be hilarious.  I love the Levitate/Lift powers.  This would be a great way to add damage to a mind controller, but then there's the issue of setting up containment.  Why doesn't it just happen on confused or afraid enemies?  that's always puzzled me. seems like an easier fix instead of reworking a bunch of specific powers.  containment off of Fear/Confuse doesn't seem gamebreaking. 

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, capricorpse said:

However, the only thing that's been brought up to replace it that made me excited was a targeted AoE version of Levitate.  That doesn't exist yet (outside of the close ranged Psi Melee one) and would be hilarious.  I love the Levitate/Lift powers.

 

Psionic Tornado does that, but only with a 50% knockup chance.

[capricorpse]

4 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Psionic Tornado does that, but only with a 50% knockup chance.

whoops!  i forgot about that one.  it totally does exactly this lol

[Zanthyna]

Mass Hypnosis:

Either make mobs currently sleeping be extra vulnerable when attacked (take extra damage or other effects last longer) or make it convert to a terrorized effect if they take damage while asleep (thematically the sleep would be a nightmare).

 

Telekinesis:

Don't change the mechanics of this power. It's iconic and one of the few where skill actually matters. Just walk-back the ED nerf.  Allow it to target 16. Thematically, it totally fits with Mind. Telekinesis means moving things with your mind.

 

Mass Confusion:

Reduce the recharge like many have already suggested.