Weaken Resolve from Force of Will power pool

[Peacemoon]

Has this been nerfed or is Mids wrong?

 

For Dominators it lists as -12.98% res and -8.03% def, but in game it is -7.5% for both (tested on my level 19 Dominator). Its a shame because it makes it a lot less useful than I hoped.

 

I'm running mine with an Achilles Heel -res proc, which is pretty much carrying the power! 

 

Anyone know anything about this power? I'm guessing all the other ATs have different numbers than on Mids as well? 

[tidge]

I believe that Weaken Resolve's effectiveness was reduced as part of the general patch for Tanker updates, with the idea being that such an early Power Pool pick shouldn't be more powerful than the inherent bonus given to an entire AT.

[Peacemoon]

21 minutes ago, tidge said:

I believe that Weaken Resolve's effectiveness was reduced as part of the general patch for Tanker updates, with the idea being that such an early Power Pool pick shouldn't be more powerful than the inherent bonus given to an entire AT.

I'm not sure I follow you on this, but appreciate the response!

 

Defender debuffs are usually around -30% res, Controllers -22.5% res, so a pool power doing -12%~ on a Dom, and single target not AoE, didn't seem too excessive to me. Just glad it allows for Achilles Hee and so still find it useful for taking down tough targets, but otherwise we're not far off it being more effective to just attack then spend 2s casting the debuff. 

[ZeeHero]

I've never used force of will, it seems like a very weak pool with not much reason to take it.

[Peacemoon]

23 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

I've never used force of will, it seems like a very weak pool with not much reason to take it.

I have it as it tends to suit Peacemoon who is a psychic themed hero. As a travel its fine and more interesting than fly. Plus I thought I'd give weaken resolve a try so it made sense to take my travel from the same pool. Despite the above, it actually works quite well on my Dom, who otherwise lacks the debuffs I'm used to on my controllers. 

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Defender debuffs are usually around

 

They aren't.  All powers, including debuffs, rely on several modifiers.  Archetype modifiers, individual power scales, character levels, whether a power is from a powerset or a pool, all alter the final value, for example.  There is no average value for anything, though there may be a consistently used modifier for some powers, which implies, on initial observation, an average weighting.  Some powers also use modifiers from different tables than expected.  Pool powers always use lower modifiers than powerset powers.

 

Also, Mids' has always had some erroneous entries, and the latest version has been moved into the hands of a new team, so it may be best to ask for collaboration in testing and verification of the entry, in the official thread.  

 

 

[Peacemoon]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

They aren't.  All powers, including debuffs, rely on several modifiers.  Archetype modifiers, individual power scales, character levels, whether a power is from a powerset or a pool, all alter the final value, for example.  There is no average value for anything, though there may be a consistently used modifier for some powers, which implies, on initial observation, an average weighting.  Some powers also use modifiers from different tables than expected.  Pool powers always use lower modifiers than powerset powers.

 

Also, Mids' has always had some erroneous entries, and the latest version has been moved into the hands of a new team, so it may be best to ask for collaboration in testing and verification of the entry, in the official thread.  

 

 

Actually -30% res IS pretty much the standard -res for Defenders. Sleet/Tar Patch/Freezing Rain/Enervating Field/Melt Armour/Slowed Response. I get that AT's have modifiers, which is why I said Controllers are -22.5% in the above example.

So on that basis I didn't think Weaken Resolve felt overpowered at -12% on a single target, for a Dom. But to be honest Weaken Resolve does other things as well, so I'm pretty cool with it.

 

It'll take a look at the Mids' Reborn thread. I wish I had the skills to assist them more than I can. 

[Mezmera]

Yeah they did lower it.  Don't mind it since I can still drop an Achilles into it and bring this out on those AV fights, it's quite effective in that way.  Unleash Potential is the whole reason to go Force of Will and as a side benefit you get a nice little debuff and the most useful travel imo.  

[Peacemoon]

I have thought about getting unleashed potential, especially as I’m already 2 powers in. It’s just the long recharge that puts me off, but I do like the idea of going super powerful for a minute! Ah my Mind/Psy build is already so tight.. 🥺

[Vulgaris]

I always thought the hardline fear of pool powers being "Too good" While hasten exists is silly.

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, Vulgaris said:

I always thought the hardline fear of pool powers being "Too good" While hasten exists is silly.

I think around issue 3 or 4 I created a huge thread on the official forums about nerfing Hasten because it was too good. As a Controller it felt mandatory so it was annoying. Builds were much tighter then (having to take 3 powers for Stamina), and also you couldn't hide the effects, which meant everyone had glowie fists. I was stubbornly refusing to take it due to the feel of giving my character super speed powers, and of course it does restrict the amount of pools you pick from.

 

Also a lot of powers were getting balanced around people expected to have Hasten. I'm pretty sure Accelerating Metabolism for Rad had its recharge lengthened due to this, just so it couldn't be made perma (before IO set enhancements). Which is why it has the very odd recharge of 422 seconds, which is absurdly long compared to other similar buffs in the modern meta, but done back in the day for Hasten reasons (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinctively remember that being part of the equation!)

 

Needless to say, everyone liked their hasten too much, and the devs didn't side with me. So here we are! 😉 I'm just glad they made the fitness pool baseline, and that with the ability to remove the visual effect, it has removed some of the drawbacks, so I won't be revisiting that fight! The ship has sailed, and traveled the world, and embarked again.. plus I'm older and not in a fighting mood anymore! With Homecoming I feel like I'm just enjoying a peaceful sail on calm waters... to continue the metaphor.. so I'm just here for the ride and do whatever I can to help.

[ABlueThingy]

On 4/15/2020 at 3:21 AM, Peacemoon said:

I think around issue 3 or 4 I created a huge thread on the official forums about nerfing Hasten because it was too good. As a Controller it felt mandatory so it was annoying. Builds were much tighter then (having to take 3 powers for Stamina), and also you couldn't hide the effects, which meant everyone had glowie fists. I was stubbornly refusing to take it due to the feel of giving my character super speed powers, and of course it does restrict the amount of pools you pick from.

 

Also a lot of powers were getting balanced around people expected to have Hasten. I'm pretty sure Accelerating Metabolism for Rad had its recharge lengthened due to this, just so it couldn't be made perma (before IO set enhancements). Which is why it has the very odd recharge of 422 seconds, which is absurdly long compared to other similar buffs in the modern meta, but done back in the day for Hasten reasons (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinctively remember that being part of the equation!)

 

Needless to say, everyone liked their hasten too much, and the devs didn't side with me. So here we are! 😉 I'm just glad they made the fitness pool baseline, and that with the ability to remove the visual effect, it has removed some of the drawbacks, so I won't be revisiting that fight! The ship has sailed, and traveled the world, and embarked again.. plus I'm older and not in a fighting mood anymore! With Homecoming I feel like I'm just enjoying a peaceful sail on calm waters... to continue the metaphor.. so I'm just here for the ride and do whatever I can to help.

I remember that fight, we had it many many times.  I also remember arguing that adding so much +rech into IOs was going to end poorly.

 

I still say the answer is to give Hasten a drawback or condition and add in more +rech powers into new pools with their own conditions/drawbacks.  If we have to have Hasten then at least give us some other flavors of Hasten.

[Chance Jackson]

On 4/14/2020 at 9:14 AM, tidge said:

I believe that Weaken Resolve's effectiveness was reduced as part of the general patch for Tanker updates, with the idea being that such an early Power Pool pick shouldn't be more powerful than the inherent bonus given to an entire AT.

it needs it's own separate tohit check & doesn't do dmg I think balancing it based on tankers was wrong

[Peacemoon]

18 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

it needs it's own separate tohit check & doesn't do dmg I think balancing it based on tankers was wrong

To be honest I tried my best to enjoy this power and make it work, I thought on a Dominator without normal debuffs (and coming from a Controller background with plenty) it would be right up my street. But it is just simply not effective enough to be worth casting. It has a really long cast time (over 2s), and if the Achilles heel proc doesn’t fire its bonus is negligible. In almost all cases you would have been better off simply attacking rather than debuffing - because the extra damage gained  from the debuff is less than the damage you could have produced from attacks in the time it takes to cast. Or similar enough that it hardly warrants a power slot choice.

 

In teams it is worse - it is a slow power more akin to my Rad’s Radiation Infection cast time - but only effects one target, and in a fast moving team it feels like an amazingly poor use of time where I’m not contributing anything.

 

Basically, the bonuses are negligible, the cast time is long, it only effects one target, it needs to be armed with a proc and for that proc to fire to be effective. 
 

My suggestion would be reduce the cast time to 1.5s max (preferably lower). If it’s going to remain single target and with these numbers it needs to something fast you can weave in quickly at the very least, and then maybe it might be worth revisiting. 
 

Disappointed because I really liked the flavour, but there’s only so far im willing to stretch for nice flavour!

[Sir Myshkin]

On 4/22/2020 at 12:15 PM, Peacemoon said:

Basically, the bonuses are negligible, the cast time is long, it only effects one target, it needs to be armed with a proc and for that proc to fire to be effective. 
 

My suggestion would be reduce the cast time to 1.5s max (preferably lower). If it’s going to remain single target and with these numbers it needs to something fast you can weave in quickly at the very least, and then maybe it might be worth revisiting. 

For what it's worth:

 

From a solo stand point the power is less effective for most high-damage-capable AT's, but benefits support roles fairly well if it gets a full investment suite of procs and absolutely no recharge adjustment. If you get some accuracy into it, the Shield Breaker, Lady Gray, and Cloud Senses damage procs, and the Achilles' Heel backed by enough global recharge to reduce it down to 13-14/s (minimum effectiveness, 10/s would be ideal, but harder), then the ability will have a high (relatively close to its cap probability) chance to fire off the full assortment every time making it on-average a better "attack" than most support role early abilities. If I recall correctly its average in that circumstance is like 86 DPA and is self-improving by applying the -Res debuffs that boost proc performance.

 

So awesome on Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, and Masterminds, questionable on Dominators and Sentinels, negative value (solo) for everyone else.

[SuperPlyx]

16 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

If you get some accuracy into it, the Shield Breaker, Lady Gray, and Cloud Senses damage procs, and the Achilles' Heel backed by enough global recharge to reduce it down to 13-14/s (minimum effectiveness, 10/s would be ideal, but harder), then the ability will have a high (relatively close to its cap probability) chance to fire off the full assortment every time making it on-average a better "attack" than most support role early abilities.

This is what I did, and it hit hard on my controller and defender. But it's a melee power and I personally play those ATs at range, so I rarely used it. And finally respecced out of it

[Crysis]

On 4/14/2020 at 10:04 AM, ZeeHero said:

I've never used force of will, it seems like a very weak pool with not much reason to take it.

You’ve obviously not tried Unleash Potental on a squishy with high recharge.  It’s a Scrapper/Brute level T9.  Damn near Incarnate Barrier T3 by level 40.

[Mezmera]

On 4/22/2020 at 10:15 AM, Peacemoon said:

To be honest I tried my best to enjoy this power and make it work, I thought on a Dominator without normal debuffs (and coming from a Controller background with plenty) it would be right up my street. But it is just simply not effective enough to be worth casting. It has a really long cast time (over 2s), and if the Achilles heel proc doesn’t fire its bonus is negligible. In almost all cases you would have been better off simply attacking rather than debuffing - because the extra damage gained  from the debuff is less than the damage you could have produced from attacks in the time it takes to cast. Or similar enough that it hardly warrants a power slot choice.

 

In teams it is worse - it is a slow power more akin to my Rad’s Radiation Infection cast time - but only effects one target, and in a fast moving team it feels like an amazingly poor use of time where I’m not contributing anything.

 

Basically, the bonuses are negligible, the cast time is long, it only effects one target, it needs to be armed with a proc and for that proc to fire to be effective. 
 

My suggestion would be reduce the cast time to 1.5s max (preferably lower). If it’s going to remain single target and with these numbers it needs to something fast you can weave in quickly at the very least, and then maybe it might be worth revisiting. 
 

Disappointed because I really liked the flavour, but there’s only so far im willing to stretch for nice flavour!

The goal is to get Unleash Potential but I like to pick up this debuff along the way too.  It's not something I would use in a fight with a random mob as right you are the cast time is too long to be useful just to kill a boss.  But I do have it stashed on the side for the tougher fights, I don't slot anything else into it other than the achilles and just let my internal accuracy bonuses help this one so to keep the proc firing at 90% of the time.  

 

I have to disagree with your assessment though.  With the proc firing it'll give your target almost 30% -resist.  On my energy dom before the debuff wears off I can chain up a Total Focus, Snipe and Burst all that normally do 500 pts of damage each so add about a third more damage to that chain, you're going from 1500 damage to almost 2k damage, that's very noticeable, and I've play tested it to see how functional it is.  Also have to disagree about the teaming part, yes it slows your attack chain a little but in those AV fights Weaken Resolve procing achilles 90% of the time magnifies your teams damage potential.  You are enhancing your teams damage by 30% 8 fold.  It's a very solid power for AV fights.  

Edited May 20, 2020 by Mezmera

[ILIWAPCT]

So far it's working great on my stalker. As a melee class it gives me some ranged options and IO's are good too.

[MTeague]

None of the biggies in the new power pools are perma-able though correct?  10 minute cooldowns, 60 or 90 second durations?

Though I guess with enough recharge you can avoid the "Too Cool to Use" trap of wanting to always keep it available and then never actually USING the fool thing, because your'e too afraid of wasting it.  As long as teh recharge isn't suuuper long.

Edited May 22, 2020 by MTeague

[Mezmera]

8 hours ago, MTeague said:

None of the biggies in the new power pools are perma-able though correct?  10 minute cooldowns, 60 or 90 second durations?

Though I guess with enough recharge you can avoid the "Too Cool to Use" trap of wanting to always keep it available and then never actually USING the fool thing, because your'e too afraid of wasting it.  As long as teh recharge isn't suuuper long.

Yeah Rune nor Unleash are perma-able, by default my doms shoot for high recharge so I get these down to where Unleash Potential is active for a minute and down for a bit over a minute before it recharges.  In the meantime I cycle Barrier plus I have built in some sturdy defenses already so by the time what I need from Barrier wears off Unleash Potential is back.  If you add in Demonic to the mix which I never use but rarely I can get 6 minutes straight of capped defenses.  Not too shabby.