A sincere request to take a look at the sentinel AT.

[Vulgaris]

I posted a thread in the sentinel forum itself (Listed here)

And largely the consensus seems to be something is missing, amiss, or tuned too low about the sentinel as a whole.  Many varying opinions and perspectives sure- And my poll is more of a "Getting a more concrete numerical figure for the general feel for sentinel" method than fishing for suggestions as they stand.

And I think a confirmed developer statement on taking a look or giving it another balance pass would do a lot to assuage the worries of the AT's playerbase and "Meh" reputation of the AT as it stands. 

[Pzn]

I would like to see the target cap on some of their AoEs raised.  The nukes are powerful enough as is(except full auto) but the other AoE attacks and cones feel really weak with lower target caps.  If you have any experience with the same blast sets on other archetypes then it feels like a downgrade to play it with lower target caps.  Even defenders and corruptors get higher target caps on the same powers.  The nukes function differently with a faster recharge and lower damage, so I understand having them at 10 targets.  But other AoEs/Cones have the same numbers as the Blaster/Corruptor/Defender versions except for the lower target caps.

 

[Black Zot]

Low range, low target caps, low damage numbers, low defense/resist numbers - literally everything about sentinels just feels gimped somehow.   The AT just doesn't do anything very well.  It's defender damage and stalker survivability, and basically nothing else.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Cant say I agree. My Dark/Regen sent feels extremely powerful. In fact I feel the Sent At basically undermines and obsoletes the unique nature of Peace Bringers. A energy/inv sent is basically a PB with access to epic/villain patron pools. Since we can take a travel power now at low level and without a prereq the advantage of starting with fly/tp as khelds to as also been heavily nerfed indirectly.

 

IMO before anything can be done to the sentinal AT as a whole, this issue of the Peace Bringer being made almost entirely obsolete by this hybrid ATs  creation, alongside the fact the kheldians still must suffer the existence of Quantum enemies needs to be recognized and addressed.

 

Sents can tank and they can nuke. Hell their villain patron pools give them in the games own words the strongest of the widows as their permable patron pet.

 

Hell a /bio sent is capable of some very real mass murder, so just broad brushing up sents dps as a whole only makes their strongest outliers truly OP.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

e, this issue of the Peace Bringer being made almost entirely obsolete by this hybrid ATs  creation, alongside the fact the kheldians still must suffer the existence of Quantum enemies needs to be recognized and addressed.

I run both. Sentinels do not make PBs "almost entirely obsolete" by a long shot.

 

And leave my Quants alone.

[Coyotedancer]

As someone who actually spends a fair bit of time playing Sentinels... I still say all they really need in general is a balance pass on their damage sets. Currently the various sets are very, VERY uneven and some are definitely better tuned than others. If Psi and Archery, for instance, handled as well as DP, Fire and Dark? That would go a long way towards improving things. 

 

AR is a different beast. That one needs more tinkering than the others... The reduced range and such really hit Assault Rifle harder than they hit most of the other primary sets, and it's going to take some more serious revamping as a result.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

29 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I run both. Sentinels do not make PBs "almost entirely obsolete" by a long shot.

 

And leave my Quants alone.

I frankly disagree as someone who has both. A PB is supposed to be unique by being a nuke capable tank. While with great investment blasters etc can reach this to some degree, a Sent does so right out of the box. Because you can make one with a better nuke set with more useful debuffing like dark etc they surpass a PB in the offense aspect. Because they can take far more adaptable sets like Bio or regen they surpass khelds in the survival aspect, all imo of course but in game play that is exactly what it feels like to me. Perma light form does have its advantages, but not as much as the diverse options Sents can choose from.

 

And then when you factor in Khelds not having any epic/patron pool access, and yes the bane of Qs which can make especially early solo play much harsher on khelds then anything any other AT has to deal with by and large, it becomes a why do sents need any buffing especially before khelds and PBs specifically?

 

I very much consider of fine tuned dark/regen sent to be leaps and bounds more tanky than my perma light form PB and possessed of greater utility and adaptability build wise. If a number cruncher wants to break down the baseline stat differences between the closest equiv a energy/inv sent and a PB and then factor in the things like a epic/patron pool the sent has access to on top of that I suspect the PB will not really seem like anything special.

 

Im not saying there is no need to look at or further fine tune sents. I am saying that they should not be before kheldians get a serious fine tuning. Currently they simply do not stand out as anything special, and the old limits put on them like no epic pool, a built in bane, and a real lack of build diversity options makes me feel like they barely have a place beyond flavor builds. And I love my PB a whole lot and my sent a whole lot. I consider them the two most overlapping characters in my stable however as even among ATs there is far more variation in how they can approach things vs sent tank mage and pb tank mage.

[Burnt Toast]

2 hours ago, Black Zot said:

Low range, low target caps, low damage numbers, low defense/resist numbers - literally everything about sentinels just feels gimped somehow.   The AT just doesn't do anything very well.  It's defender damage and stalker survivability, and basically nothing else.

Defender damage? Uhhhh ok. 

 

Blaster: Fire Blast=84.72

Defender: Fire Blast=48.95

Sentinel: Fire Blast=75.79

 

Blaster: Blaze=170.5

Defender: Blaze=98.5

Sentinel: Blaze=128.4

 

Resistance Cap=75% - the exact same as a Scrapper

Ninjitsu, Energy, SR, and Ice Armor are all easy to get to the softcap of Defense. 

 

Range: Can be increase easily with both ATO sets by 20%. 72 feet is plenty "ranged" for a ranged character... heck 60 feet is as well - that keeps you out of melee and AoE attack range easily. 

 

While the target cap is reduced - most AoE attacks hit 10 targets... which is nothing to sneeze at. The reduction is either by 4 or 6 enemies in almost all the powers. 

 

If you want to dislike the AT... that's fine, but using hyperbolic reasoning to justify that dislike doesn't carry weight when the numbers show differently. 

 

What you have to take into account is survivability. There has to be SOME trade off. If Sentinels had increased damage, increased resistance, and increased target caps... why would people play Blasters at all? The role; in my opinion, of a Sentinel is someone on the team that doesn't need to be as closely monitored as a Blaster when it comes to buffs/health for survivability. Their role is to damage and be more self sustaining. 

 

With ALL that being said... I do think their inherent needs looked at because it seems rather lackluster. I would much rather see something akin to Corruptor Scourge on a Sentinel. 

 

[Black Zot]

4 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

 

 

While the target cap is reduced - most AoE attacks hit 10 targets... which is nothing to sneeze at. The reduction is either by 4 or 6 enemies in almost all the powers. 

 

 

 

This is the line that invalidates everything above it.  So long as the target cap is lower, sentinels could have higher damage per shot than blasters and still get out-dpsed because, in case you haven't noticed, CoH combat revolves around AOE damage.  Single target offense only matters for boss battles, which represent a small fraction of the game.  (Also, lower range is an additional - and severe - nerf to any cone attack; some powersets are hurt worse than others by this.)

 

I want to like the AT.  I have character concepts that a working version of the sentinel would be a great fit for.  But as it stands, sents are just plain inferior to every other ranged class where it matters most: the ability to quickly take down large groups.

[Greycat]

9 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

I frankly disagree as someone who has both. A PB is supposed to be unique by being a nuke capable tank.

No, a PB is supposed to be unique by being a shapeshifting AT that can change roles - or not, if you choose to skip one or both forms - given their own storyline (the "epic" in "epic AT.")

Quote

And then when you factor in Khelds not having any epic/patron pool access, and yes the bane of Qs which can make especially early solo play much harsher on khelds then anything any other AT has to deal with by and large,

 

Qs are one of the things I love about my Khelds, even early on. Unlike every other AT, the game world is *specifically reacting to my presence* by spawning them. I enjoy the additional challenge - something extra to look out for. Yes, even early on. As you get farther in, they're just less and less of a worry. Especially with them not doing what they used to do (unresistable "nictus" damage specifically to Khelds.)

 

For once, the player needs to sit up and *pay attention* to the environment.

 

Yes, I miss old style Cysts too. Especially when my Khelds could just say "Stand back. That's here for me. I'll clean it up" ... and do so.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Greycat

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Black Zot said:

This is the line that invalidates everything above it.  So long as the target cap is lower, sentinels could have higher damage per shot than blasters and still get out-dpsed because, in case you haven't noticed, CoH combat revolves around AOE damage.

Not to mention the fact that with the range reduction, Sentinels generally have to go inside a spawn's aggro range to use their AoEs, which means that the spawn aggros and gets their first shot off before the sentinel can, where a Blaster can sail up, drop an AoE, and be on their second attack by the time the spawn's response comes back. And even with the defenses to take the incoming, it's still annoying to have to give up control of the fight right at the start.

[Burnt Toast]

38 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Not to mention the fact that with the range reduction, Sentinels generally have to go inside a spawn's aggro range to use their AoEs, which means that the spawn aggros and gets their first shot off before the sentinel can, where a Blaster can sail up, drop an AoE, and be on their second attack by the time the spawn's response comes back. And even with the defenses to take the incoming, it's still annoying to have to give up control of the fight right at the start.

Uhhh... Celerity +stealth proc?

On My fire/nin (Which has sleath/defense in Shinobi Iri)I just go into middle of mob... buildup+nuke...then FireBall..and then pick any stragglers off. 

 

 

[Burnt Toast]

4 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

This is the line that invalidates everything above it.  So long as the target cap is lower, sentinels could have higher damage per shot than blasters and still get out-dpsed because, in case you haven't noticed, CoH combat revolves around AOE damage.  Single target offense only matters for boss battles, which represent a small fraction of the game.  (Also, lower range is an additional - and severe - nerf to any cone attack; some powersets are hurt worse than others by this.)

 

I want to like the AT.  I have character concepts that a working version of the sentinel would be a great fit for.  But as it stands, sents are just plain inferior to every other ranged class where it matters most: the ability to quickly take down large groups.

Again... hyperbole. Defenders are a ranged class as are Corruptors... who both have to invest in mez protection through outside buffs or Clarion... with only a few sets offering any mez protection to the player themselves.

A lot of Defenders/Corruptors (TA/Sonic/Cold/Storm/FF/Poison/Traps) have no way to heal themselves and have lackluster "armor" choices. 

 

If you honestly think a level 50 Defender/Corruptor can outpace a Sentinel you are mistaken. When it comes to DPA due to buffs/debuffs/armor/heals/damage...etc... the Sentinel wins in the DPA race. The only ranged AT that can shell out more damage consistently is a blaster - IF they can survive. 

 

Again.. I am not saying that the Sentinel is perfect, but trying to color it as horrible is simply disingenuous and hyperbolic. 

[modest]

11 minutes ago, Burnt Toast said:

Again... hyperbole. Defenders are a ranged class as are Corruptors... who both have to invest in mez protection through outside buffs or Clarion... with only a few sets offering any mez protection to the player themselves.

A lot of Defenders/Corruptors (TA/Sonic/Cold/Storm/FF/Poison/Traps) have no way to heal themselves and have lackluster "armor" choices. 

 

If you honestly think a level 50 Defender/Corruptor can outpace a Sentinel you are mistaken. When it comes to DPA due to buffs/debuffs/armor/heals/damage...etc... the Sentinel wins in the DPA race. The only ranged AT that can shell out more damage consistently is a blaster - IF they can survive. 

 

Again.. I am not saying that the Sentinel is perfect, but trying to color it as horrible is simply disingenuous and hyperbolic. 

You're incorrect. Based on Pylon tests, Defenders that are focused on dealing damage (often referred to as offenders) out-damage all but two players' Sentinels. There's a thread in the Defender forum entitled "Proc Monsters - The New Offender" that has good information about this if you are interested in learning more.

 

Additionally, Defenders get the same Defense Buff modifier as Tankers. This means that a Defender can more easily cap their defenses and resistances as compared to other ranged classes.

 

The only objective measure that we currently have are Pylon times. I compiled a list of these times in a recent post.

 

As you can see, on average Sentinels have worse Pylon times than Defenders or Corruptors. Only two players have shared times that compete with Blaster Pylon times. By comparing averages, we can see that the average Blaster does close to double the damage of the average Sentinel. If you would like to contribute to this data set, then I invite you to post your Pylon times in the Pylon thread. More comparisons are always helpful for other players.

 

Based on Pylon, Dominators also significantly out-damage Sentinels on average. In fact, the player with the majority of the top Sentinel Pylon times also posted a Dominator Pylon time that is significantly better than his Sentinel's times.

[Vulgaris]

That and real talk since there's some real shade being thrown at defenders- A poison, sonic or rad- Hell even nature as they too get self heals, -res to targets, resists and things that affect themselves.  (Not to mention Kinetics- Aka all damage cap all the time) Any of those defenders or more with any investment in a damage rotation will typically smoke a sentinel by merit of simply having more -res and or buffs to capitalize on to empower themselves and a party while they're at it than going /bio /rad or /fire on their end. (Not to mention if we're talking solo- a defender with just assault to capitalize on their high buff scaling is hovering near +50 percent damage from their inherent with no other factors.) And often defender survivability comes from hamstringing the enemy's damage and accuracy as well  (Which works for everyone in the party- Not just yourself.) on top of access to pools/epics and IOs.  If anything using them to insist you can out damage a defender as though they're some sort of turbo gimped yardstick is probably more telling of the state of sentinels. Because on top of being able to keep pace with other people- They are providing other utilities to the group besides "I don't hit the floor as easily."

That and the base values aren't even that far off/disparate- And when you factor in the inherent damage bonus even with no other factors like -res, +damage buffs... That gap still closes quicker than you'd think.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Vulgaris

[siolfir]

10 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Resistance Cap=75% - the exact same as a Scrapper

It's also the exact same as a Stalker (and, for that matter, every non-epic AT that isn't a Tanker or Brute), whom they were directly compared to and have the same hit points as. I have no idea why you were bringing Scrappers into the mix other than to confuse the issue with an AT that gets more hit points.

 

I do agree that they do more damage than most (ie, non-proc'd) Defenders, though. But that's a fairly low bar to clear, and the person was likely looking at the pylon results (as mentioned earlier) to get their results.

Edited April 16, 2020 by siolfir

[Black Zot]

And there you have it.  Sentinels don't even measure up in a test that should play directly to their strengths - IE standing up and slugging it out with a single hard-hitting target.

 

So claiming they can in any way compete with other ranged classes in an AoE situation, where they are factually gimped, is absurd.  It's not hyperbole, just cold hard mathematical fact.

[nihilii]

7 hours ago, modest said:

Based on Pylon tests, Defenders that are focused on dealing damage (often referred to as offenders) out-damage all but two players' Sentinels.

A good half of Sentinel primaries can reach 250+ DPS. Probably more than that.

 

At least 6-7 different players have reported 300+ DPS numbers on their own Sentinels on the forums. Besides, why do we care how many people have high damage Sentinels? Is this a covert way to call people liars? CoH is deterministic, and Sentinels are largely condition agnostic. Performance can be replicated, if there's truly a will to do so. Copypaste the builds, hop on Test, whack on some Pylons.

 

Now: how many Defenders that aren't Storm or Poison will reach 250+ DPS? 300+ DPS?

 

How many of those Defenders won't have /Fire as a secondary?

 

How often can you translate Storm DPS to practical situations? In this very topic, we have people arguing Sentinels suck because they can't hit 16 targets at once. Yet we're also asked to believe at the same time Storm DPS that only applies when Tornado and LS have only a single target to attack is somehow equal to "situation agnostic" Sentinel DPS...

Even Poison, lovely as it is, requires significantly more effort than a Sentinel to push out the numbers it can do, due to having to stay in melee with no native defenses and apply debuffs.

Edited April 16, 2020 by nihilii

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Im sorry but why on earth shoulda  sent even come close to a blaster or offender in terms of DPS. They are more like ranged scrappers. That is the AT they should be most directly held up against outside of PBs who are the most obvious counterpart as the old tank mage AT.

 

Offenders are a special kind of thing and are not a standard but a outlier. Outliers are not the measure by which balance should be discussed. And blasters should and stalkers are the DPS kings and should pretty much have no one else even remotely close to them in blasters for aoe, and ranged ST, adn stalkers for melee ST obviously. These re the king of the hill ATs for DPS and everyone else should be down the hill closer to the base then the peak.

 

Sents have more then enough DPS to easily and rapidly clear base line dif at cap. A well developed one can easily handle high end dif scaling solo. Mine would regularly take alt paths solo in tf mishes to speed them up because X8 groups posed no threat to him and died plenty fast.

 

If people are struggling to make a good sent well I shudder to think what a scrapper or blaster performs like in their hands. Go makea  dark/regen or dark/bio and fine tune it and get back to me that its just too gimpy and in dire need of buffing.

[Zeraphia]

20 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Defender damage? Uhhhh ok. 

 

Blaster: Fire Blast=84.72

Defender: Fire Blast=48.95

Sentinel: Fire Blast=75.79

 

Blaster: Blaze=170.5

Defender: Blaze=98.5

Sentinel: Blaze=128.4

 

Resistance Cap=75% - the exact same as a Scrapper

Ninjitsu, Energy, SR, and Ice Armor are all easy to get to the softcap of Defense. 

 

Range: Can be increase easily with both ATO sets by 20%. 72 feet is plenty "ranged" for a ranged character... heck 60 feet is as well - that keeps you out of melee and AoE attack range easily. 

 

While the target cap is reduced - most AoE attacks hit 10 targets... which is nothing to sneeze at. The reduction is either by 4 or 6 enemies in almost all the powers. 

 

If you want to dislike the AT... that's fine, but using hyperbolic reasoning to justify that dislike doesn't carry weight when the numbers show differently. 

 

What you have to take into account is survivability. There has to be SOME trade off. If Sentinels had increased damage, increased resistance, and increased target caps... why would people play Blasters at all? The role; in my opinion, of a Sentinel is someone on the team that doesn't need to be as closely monitored as a Blaster when it comes to buffs/health for survivability. Their role is to damage and be more self sustaining. 

 

With ALL that being said... I do think their inherent needs looked at because it seems rather lackluster. I would much rather see something akin to Corruptor Scourge on a Sentinel. 

 

By basic blast powers it would seem that way, but that doesn't tell you the full story.

 

The T1/T2 favor the Sentinel once DPA is factored, this is IMO because of the fact that they tie directly into opportunity, where you fail to state is the fact that the Sentinel does not have access to a Sniper power (OUCH!) and that significantly impacts their DPS and chunking ability. Blaze for Defender is much closer in damage to Sentinel than the Blaster version... that divide MAJORLY worsens once you factor in that you lost your SNIPER power. 

 

Further, Defenders in many cases get access to a damage buff of some sort through buffing/debuffing (Overgrowth, Fulcrum Shift, Freezing Rain) that push them beyond Sentinel's damage with just aim. The divide worsens when you consider the AoE target caps with hitting 10 enemies versus 16, a pretty big damage hit if it could've hit that many targets.

 

The same can be said for any AT with a blast set really. +% range in ATO or set bonuses is definitely not unique to Sentinels, and because those ATs start at even higher bases with Sniper powers, it becomes even more impactful for them. 

 

The poster saying they do around Defender damage is not a stretch or hyperbolic in the way the game functions/works. 

 

Sentinels have a long way to go before they even slowly start to encroach on Blaster's DPS territory. Blasters have Aim and build up, a higher damaging nuke, higher target caps, and a SNIPER power. Blasters quite firmly have their place and always will.

 

I would support the change on the inherent, but it would probably have to do *more* than just scourge for chance at below 50% health. 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Zeraphia]

17 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Im sorry but why on earth shoulda  sent even come close to a blaster or offender in terms of DPS. They are more like ranged scrappers. That is the AT they should be most directly held up against outside of PBs who are the most obvious counterpart as the old tank mage AT.

 

Offenders are a special kind of thing and are not a standard but a outlier. Outliers are not the measure by which balance should be discussed. And blasters should and stalkers are the DPS kings and should pretty much have no one else even remotely close to them in blasters for aoe, and ranged ST, adn stalkers for melee ST obviously. These re the king of the hill ATs for DPS and everyone else should be down the hill closer to the base then the peak.

 

Sents have more then enough DPS to easily and rapidly clear base line dif at cap. A well developed one can easily handle high end dif scaling solo. Mine would regularly take alt paths solo in tf mishes to speed them up because X8 groups posed no threat to him and died plenty fast.

 

If people are struggling to make a good sent well I shudder to think what a scrapper or blaster performs like in their hands. Go makea  dark/regen or dark/bio and fine tune it and get back to me that its just too gimpy and in dire need of buffing.

This assumes that Blasters > Scrappers at DPS... Which, they're really not... This is a huge misconception.

 

A Scrapper pretty regularly will out-DPS a Blaster in a lot of cases... In fact, there are a number of Scrapper combinations now that will legitimately out-DPS even the most damaging Blaster. 

 

Stalkers are actually behind Scrappers in terms of DPS in a lot of cases too and well most of the time have traded up AoE/defenses in some category to gain this.

 

Single target:

I've made Fire/Bio the most damaging Sentinel (technically Elec Blast can inconsistently get higher... that's still not going to change the outcome)... How does it compare to the most damaging Scrapper? Half its actual DPS, not even joking. Even though TW/Bio is broken and so high of an outlier, a lot of regular combos will out-damage it by the hundreds. 

How does it compare to the highest damaging Blaster (Fire/Fire)? It comes close (still about 130 DPS off) with a ton of procs and tweaking, but if it didn't have its mandatory Psionic epic pool, I'm afraid the Blaster would have about legitimately 200-300 damage over the Sentinel just due to the fact that Blaze and Blazing Blast by themselves very mediocre damage. The Blaster is only using attacks out of its primary and secondary pool, did not have to use the Epic pool to gain more DPS whatsoever.

 

That's an issue that the only way to get them to competitive DPS levels is through procing out the living hell out of their epic pools. Now, I still like my Sentinel, but my Blaster and especially Scrapper are just in totally different leagues in terms of damage and DPS to the point where buffing the Sentinel absolutely does not encroach on either AT.

[srmalloy]

11 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Uhhh... Celerity +stealth proc?

On My fire/nin (Which has sleath/defense in Shinobi Iri)I just go into middle of mob... buildup+nuke...then FireBall..and then pick any stragglers off.

I noticed the range vs. aggro distance around level 6 with my Fire/Rad Sentinel Termoyaderniy ('Thermonuclear' in Russian), long before getting Build Up or her tier-9 nuke. And the Celerity global just patches over the problem; it doesn't stop mobs from spotting you at close range. And, like the statement that you can fix their range problems with the ATO sets, just tries to hide the fact that the casual player is still getting jerked around, just because they don't have 100M+ inf to throw into the ATO sets that they won't have the slots to use until at least mid- to late-game.

[modest]

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

A good half of Sentinel primaries can reach 250+ DPS. Probably more than that.

 

At least 6-7 different players have reported 300+ DPS numbers on their own Sentinels on the forums. Besides, why do we care how many people have high damage Sentinels? Is this a covert way to call people liars? CoH is deterministic, and Sentinels are largely condition agnostic. Performance can be replicated, if there's truly a will to do so. Copypaste the builds, hop on Test, whack on some Pylons.

 

Now: how many Defenders that aren't Storm or Poison will reach 250+ DPS? 300+ DPS?

 

How many of those Defenders won't have /Fire as a secondary?

 

How often can you translate Storm DPS to practical situations? In this very topic, we have people arguing Sentinels suck because they can't hit 16 targets at once. Yet we're also asked to believe at the same time Storm DPS that only applies when Tornado and LS have only a single target to attack is somehow equal to "situation agnostic" Sentinel DPS...

Even Poison, lovely as it is, requires significantly more effort than a Sentinel to push out the numbers it can do, due to having to stay in melee with no native defenses and apply debuffs.

The reason that it is important to consider the number of people who have reported high damage Sentinels is that this helps us consider whether those high damage builds are an accurate representation of the archetype's damage output. If a very small number of players are able to produce results that are wildly outside of the norm, then those players are not an accurate measurement of the performance of the archetype.

 

I will point out that the Pylon time that you posted for your Fire/Radiation Sentinel in June of 2019 was 215DPS (436 seconds). This was when you were using the Sentinel's blast set as your primary attacks. I would argue that this number is more indicative of the innate damage output of the archetype.

 

Defenders are able to reach the numbers that you quoted using Dark Blast, Rad Blast, Fire Blast, and Ice Blast when paired with Cold Domination, Storm Summoning, Poison, and Time Manipulation. It is possible that they can reach these numbers with other sets as well.

 

Defenders have a defense buff modifier of 0.100. This is the same modifier that Tankers have. As a result, it is quite possible to cap the majority of typed or positional defenses and have a good amount of resistance (typically S/L capped) simply by running tough, weave, maneuvers, and an epic shield.

[nihilii]

3 hours ago, modest said:

The reason that it is important to consider the number of people who have reported high damage Sentinels is that this helps us consider whether those high damage builds are an accurate representation of the archetype's damage output. If a very small number of players are able to produce results that are wildly outside of the norm, then those players are not an accurate measurement of the performance of the archetype.

That might make sense if you divided the number of players reporting high damage by the total number of players reporting damage, as well as by the number of players active on the subforum, and did that for all ATs. An absolute amount in a vacuum isn't relevant.

 

But in any case, I disagree with the idea. The performance of any AT is defined by its upper bounds. In this thread you spend half of the time arguing Defenders geared for ST damage specifically against a Pylon by some of the best minmaxers outdamage Sentinels, and the other half insinuating any posted proof of high damage Sentinels is invalid because an edge case. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either they're both edge cases or they're appropriate as comparison points.

3 hours ago, modest said:

I will point out that the Pylon time that you posted for your Fire/Radiation Sentinel in June of 2019 was 215DPS (436 seconds). This was when you were using the Sentinel's blast set as your primary attacks. I would argue that this number is more indicative of the innate damage output of the archetype.

This was when I didn't understand the new proc system, didn't use any epics, had Cardiac as an Alpha, Reactive as an Interface, didn't use Ageless, and when Blazing Blast had bugged damage, dealing as little as Fire Blast, a Tier 2 blast available at level 1!!

 

This was also only one attempt, and in that very same post you linked a second run with Degen T4 is posted dealing 247 DPS...

Merely adding Alpha and replicating the same suboptimal attack chain and build would force you to be above 250 DPS. The Blazing Blast fix alone doubled its damage.

 

It's amazing: you dismiss my numbers when they spell a positive story about Sentinels, then suddenly if it seems like some of these numbers can be used to say Sentinels suck, you pounce on it like a fire farmer on a thread about nerfing AE. While also ignoring the latter half of the post not going along with your narrative.

3 hours ago, modest said:

Defenders are able to reach the numbers that you quoted using Dark Blast, Rad Blast, Fire Blast, and Ice Blast when paired with Cold Domination, Storm Summoning, Poison, and Time Manipulation. It is possible that they can reach these numbers with other sets as well.

Time/Dark, Cold/Rad dealing 300+ DPS? Where are you getting this from? The Defender proc thread you linked from above has very few Pylon times that I could see at a quick skim/reread, most of which are above 5 minutes. 5 minutes to kill a Pylon = 255 DPS. You need to get the timer down to 3:40 or below.

As for the Scrapper Pylon thread, I don't recall even 250+ DPS times posted from non-Storm defenders. I could be wrong, but I don't feel like going through 28 pages of it on the offchance you're right, given that I know you've been wrong and twisted data about other things...

 

I'm not even saying it's impossible, but I'd like to see attack chains, builds, details.

Also once again pointing out you can't argue on one hand Sentinels must have no procs and no epics to accurately represent AT performance, and also argue Defenders can be fully procced out and use all the powers they want! For any comparison the scale used has to be the same.

3 hours ago, modest said:

Defenders have a defense buff modifier of 0.100. This is the same modifier that Tankers have. As a result, it is quite possible to cap the majority of typed or positional defenses and have a good amount of resistance (typically S/L capped) simply by running tough, weave, maneuvers, and an epic shield.

High DPS build examples of this, please? Time/ can softcap all 3, but I'm doubtful of 300+ DPS claims from this primary in particular.

 

High DPS builds typically must use Ageless as well, which implies either you consume amplifiers permanently (an option, but one I would argue is *significantly* less representative of AT performance than any shenanigans any Sentinel can get up to), carry a tray of breakfrees (then you get no lucks for extra defense against defense debuffs, no oranges for extra resistance, no rages for extra damage), or enjoy mezzes.

The point of Pylon tests isn't "can a Defender survive a Pylon". Pylons are more or less the bottom tier of damage you'll have to survive if you want to take on situations where high DPS is actually useful. All Defenders can take on all +4/x8 factions solo, just like all Sentinels can do the same, the question is how easy it is for each AT, and how does any extra effort required to survive play into the ability to do damage.

I have a Poison/Fire (all credit to Frosticus). I love the character. She dishes out fantastic damage competitive with my Sentinels, and improves the offensive output of her teammates significantly. At the same time, she is MUCH harder to play and dies more often as a result. The gap is so wide there is simply no comparison.

This ugly debate rears its head every now and then on the Sentinel forum, with people arguing a Blaster softcapped for range defense is all you need. Look, if you want to play in a team all the time and always have someone else take the aggro, that may be true. If you're an elite speedrunner emailing yourself 100 T3 insps before any 20 minutes run, that may also be true. Play a Blaster and be happy for the extra damage.

 

In any other situation, the survivability gap between Sentinels and traditional squishies is massive, and that extra survivability is useful - anytime you don't have to manage staying alive, you can deal more damage.

Edited April 16, 2020 by nihilii

[modest]

12 minutes ago, nihilii said:

It's amazing: you dismiss my numbers when they spell a positive story about Sentinels, then suddenly if it seems like some of these numbers can be used to say Sentinels suck, you pounce on it like a fire farmer on a thread about nerfing AE. While also ignoring the latter half of the post not going along with your narrative.

I have shown you nothing but respect. If you are unable to have a polite conversation, then we can simply agree to disagree and I will cease to reply to your posts. I understand that you are emotionally invested in this topic because the Sentinel archetype is one that you enjoy playing, and I am trying to respect that while also suggesting that improvements can be made to the damage output of the archetype.

 

I have not said "Sentinels suck".

15 minutes ago, nihilii said:

That might make sense if you divided the number of players reporting high damage by the total number of players reporting damage, as well as by the number of players active on the subforum, and did that for all ATs. An absolute amount in a vacuum isn't relevant.

The Pylon thread in the Scrapper forum includes submissions from all classes. More data would provide a broader perspective. Perhaps you could encourage people from the Sentinel forums to post their Pylon times in the Pylon thread. I think that players in that thread would enjoy seeing more submissions from an underrepresented archetype.

 

17 minutes ago, nihilii said:

But in any case, I disagree with the idea. The performance of any AT is defined by its upper bounds. In this thread you spend half of the time arguing Defenders geared for ST damage specifically against a Pylon by some of the best minmaxers outdamage Sentinels, and the other half insinuating any posted proof of high damage Sentinels is invalid because an edge case. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either they're both edge cases or they're appropriate as comparison points.

I have not insinuated that "any posted proof of high damage sentinels is invalid because an edge case". I have stated that the majority of Sentinel Pylon times that we have are sub-250DPS. This compares unfavorably to Scrappers, Blasters, and Stalkers, the three primary damage dealing archetypes. The fact that it also compares poorly to Defender Pylon times illustrates a further divide between the archetypes.

 

20 minutes ago, nihilii said:

As for the Scrapper Pylon thread, I don't recall even 250+ DPS times posted from non-Storm defenders. I could be wrong, but I don't feel like going through 28 pages of it on the offchance you're right, given that I know you've been wrong and twisted data about other things...

 

I'm not even saying it's impossible, but I'd like to see attack chains, builds, details.

I would be happy to send you my Poison/Fire or Cold/Fire Mid's file for you to Pylon test. Because you already have a Poison/Fire, your build might outperform mine. It is likely to do so since you outperform me in Pylon testing.

 

In response to your personal attack, I've shared all of my Pylon builds on the forums and on the HC Discord. The DPS numbers that I post, which are much lower than the numbers that you have achieved, are based on Pylon kill times. I build a character on the test server and kill Pylons repeatedly until I have a good idea about what a build can achieve. There are a group of players on the HC Discord that do this regularly. We share times and compare builds. The numbers that we share are very consistent with very few outliers.

 

26 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Also once again pointing out you can't argue on one hand Sentinels must have no procs and no epics to accurately represent AT performance, and also argue Defenders can be fully procced out and use all the powers they want! For any comparison the scale used has to be the same.

High DPS build examples of this, please? Time/ can softcap all 3, but I'm doubtful of 300+ DPS claims from this primary in particular.

Please quote where I said that Sentinels must have no procs, and that Defenders can be fully procced out and use all the powers that they want. I have pointed out that Sentinels must use the Psychic epic tree to achieve top DPS times. Would you disagree?

 

I am not as familiar with Time Manipulation as other posters in the Defender Proc thread. I refer you to that thread for examples of Time Manipulation builds. I also cannot confirm that they are able to deal 300+dps. I would estimate that most min-maxed Defenders are in the ~230-250DPS range, which is above most min-maxed Sentinels based on Pylon times.

31 minutes ago, nihilii said:

High DPS builds typically must use Ageless as well, which implies either you consume amplifiers permanently (an option, but one I would argue is *significantly* less representative of AT performance than any shenanigans any Sentinel can get up to), carry a tray of breakfrees (then you get no lucks for extra defense against defense debuffs, no oranges for extra resistance, no rages for extra damage), or enjoy mezzes.

Builds that slot for high global recharge do not require Ageless, but I agree with you that it does improve most builds. I take Clarion on most of my builds for the reason that you stated.

 

Again, I understand that you are very passionate about the Sentinel archetype, and therefore you feel a need to defend any perceived slight against the archetype. Please try to understand that I am not criticizing the archetype in an attempt to insult it. My criticisms are motivated by a desire to see the archetype improved. I am also not attempting to insult you.

 

You appear to believe that you are being personally attacked by suggestions to improve the archetype. You are not. In fact, the reason that I used your Pylon times is because they provide a good, helpful reference. If I did not think that they were helpful, I would not have posted them.