It's time to recognize Domination is bad.

[SlimPickens]

16 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Going to give this one a hard no.

 

Domination is fine as a ridiculously powerful ability. People can build it to be perma and that's incredibly rewarding.

 

IOs are more accessible than they have ever been. 

 

Don't fix what isn't broken.

I have to agree.

 

Pay the IO tax to be super powered, or just play it out as an occasional mushroom power up.

 

Every build in the game is vastly improved with proper IOs, a basic dominator without perma is no weaker than a basic blaster without capped def or any AT that relies on SO effectiveness. You can pay the IO/build tax to be meta level, or you can choose not to, it doesnt make the AT unplayable not to have the over 9000 power level.

[Solarverse]

@Replacement

 

Basically, I am saying that I don't care either way. They can do whatever they like with it as far as I am concerned. A lot of people like it as is though, so I honestly don't see that changing anytime in the near future, if ever.

[Galaxy Brain]

30 minutes ago, SlimPickens said:

I have to agree.

 

Pay the IO tax to be super powered, or just play it out as an occasional mushroom power up.

 

Every build in the game is vastly improved with proper IOs, a basic dominator without perma is no weaker than a basic blaster without capped def or any AT that relies on SO effectiveness. You can pay the IO/build tax to be meta level, or you can choose not to, it doesnt make the AT unplayable not to have the over 9000 power level.

It doesn't make it unplayable, but nobody else has a great big "wall" to get to that 9000 lvl. A blaster can get by and be good without being specifically capped, a Dominator needs to pass that perma benchmark or its essentially wasting its time.  

 

Why are people against keeping permadom, but making it less "Strict" on how it is achieved while keeping the same goal?

[kenlon]

34 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Why are people against keeping permadom, but making it less "Strict" on how it is achieved while keeping the same goal?

Honestly? I think the largest thing is how Replacement phrased things in the opening post. If he'd avoided saying anything about permadom having (or being) a problem, and instead focused on the issue of the cliff in Domination uptime outside of permadom, it would have been better recieved.

 

Personally, I've been duoing a Grav/Psi dom with one of my wife's characters, and the idea of being able to build bar while the buff is active instead of having to wait until it's worn off would be great. I'm nowhere near permadom (he's only 27), but anything to smooth out Domination availability would be very welcome.

[Infinitum]

What's a Dominator?  😄

[skoryy]

14 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

What's a Dominator?  😄

A class that needs more powersets than it does a nerf.

 

I'm still trying to find a dom concept that works, from my limited experience the class is fun but I need a hero/villain not just a powerset with a costume.

[Galaxy Brain]

7 minutes ago, skoryy said:

A class that needs more powersets than it does a nerf.

 

I'm still trying to find a dom concept that works, from my limited experience the class is fun but I need a hero/villain not just a powerset with a costume.

This is not a nerf thread

[Greycat]

8 hours ago, Replacement said:

I'm glad you enjoy it, and I don't mind you expressing this sentiment one bit!  But consider this: what if you really liked an MMO class despite it being weak?

I find it hard to call an AT weak whose playstyle is "Lock you down and walk up with a damage secondary to smack you around in perfect safety."

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Going to give this one a hard no.

 

Domination is fine as a ridiculously powerful ability. People can build it to be perma and that's incredibly rewarding.

 

IOs are more accessible than they have ever been. 

 

Don't fix what isn't broken.

What, exactly, are you giving a hard no?

 

If it's a ridiculously powerful ability, then you would logically need to acknowledge that not having that means your entire AT is missing that ridiculous power.

 

If Permadom is expected, then I shouldn't ever see you backing SO-only players, or RPers, or any other non-elitist opinion.  And yet, you are not an elitist, from my observations, so this is a weird line to draw in the sand.

 

I know you and I disagree... every 18 minutes, and I'm sad to see that continue.  But this is a very strange premise for keeping normal-dom builds so far into subpar.

[ScarySai]

36 minutes ago, Replacement said:

What, exactly, are you giving a hard no?

Your ideas for domination and your rationalization for changing it.

 

36 minutes ago, Replacement said:

If it's a ridiculously powerful ability, then you would logically need to acknowledge that not having that means your entire AT is missing that ridiculous power.

All dominators have it, so logically, you have to admit that the entire AT is not missing that ridiculous power. Permadom is a massive bonus to performance, but the AT is hardly what I would call crippled without it.

 

36 minutes ago, Replacement said:

If Permadom is expected, then I shouldn't ever see you backing SO-only players, or RPers, or any other non-elitist opinion.  And yet, you are not an elitist, from my observations, so this is a weird line to draw in the sand.

I didn't really say it's expected, but I'll humor you: It's 'expected' because it's honestly one of the easier things you can build for in the game. Even a slightly io'd build can get decent uptime on domination. It's a pretty great boon while solo to have permadom, yet in groups it's not only likely going to be easier due to recharge buffs, but that domination bar is going to be easier to fill because you have seven other bodies taking hits that would otherwise be intended for you.

 

I don't see how this is a weird line to draw into the sand: Dominator players like domination , I like domination, you are trying to drastically change domination to be nothing like how it currently is. This is not an issue of being elitist, despite your attempt to frame it that way - this is an issue of "What we have is fine and works well, I don't like your ideas or the motivations behind them."

Edited April 16, 2020 by ScarySai

[Galaxy Brain]

17 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I didn't really say it's expected, but I'll humor you: It's 'expected' because it's honestly one of the easier things you can build for in the game. Even a slightly io'd build can get decent uptime on domination. It's a pretty great boon while solo to have permadom, yet in groups it's not only likely going to be easier due to recharge buffs, but that domination bar is going to be easier to fill because you have seven other bodies taking hits that would otherwise be intended for you.

I wanna reiterate this in response here:

 

Lets assume it takes 30 seconds to fill domiantion, what we see is the following:

 

Other long duration / long recharge powers follow more towards that blue line where they have an expected power increase as you invest. The red line shows where Domination can be used. It does not seem fair that Dominators are the one exception to the "rule" and have a stat-wall behind which they are either incredibly powerful at all times or they simply aren't as powerful. This is not to say they are bad without it, but they are certainly not as strong.

 

Is the wall that high? No. In fact, it is one of the easier "big recharge" powers to perma:

 

 

Seen here, it is the 16th easiest out of the powers that cannot be "perma'd out of the box", of which I counted well over 100. Technically 12th if you group powers that need the same amount of recharge to perma. If you don't count the powers that require under 100% recharge, that even drops to 10th or 6th with the same criteria.

 

The "Wall" is short enough for any Dominator build to reasonably achieve. The question though is one of "Is this fair?"

 

In my opinion, no it is not.

 

Lets compare building for Defense. Adding 10% Def is nice, adding 20% is good, adding 30% is great, adding 40% is fantastic! And so on. For Dominators, it is like they can either build for 0% or 40% with no in betweens since there exists a recharge wall between Normal and Perma that does not close linearly.

 

I think it would be a net benefit to everyone if this were addressed in some way.

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The "Wall" is short enough for any Dominator build to reasonably achieve. The question though is one of "Is this fair?"

 

In my opinion, no it is not.

This is where I'll have to disagree with you. It's absolutely fair.

 

Why?

 

Because it's easily obtainable by those who wish to obtain it. It is a dramatic leap in performance and consistency. Could it have been implemented better by Paragon? Sure, many of the ATs are the product of absolutely horrible design choices being improved upon over time, especially stalkers and dominators.  You can fund a permadom build without a single purple in your build. How is that 'unfair'? Is it 'unfair' for a dual blades scrapper to be unable to run the maximum DPS chain without building for it? Is it 'unfair' that scrappers with the ATO will significantly outperform those that don't? I suppose it is, but does it warrant massive change when the remedy is effectively "work on your build for like five minutes" and (at risk of sounding elitist) "learn to play"? No.

[XaoGarrent]

There is a lot of really awkward design surrounding Dominators, and Domination itself is the absolute last item on the list of things that should be looked at. This thread is a defacto example of putting the cart before the horse.

 

Consider this a big fat /jranger from me.

[Galaxy Brain]

8 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

This is where I'll have to disagree with you. It's absolutely fair.

 

Why?

 

Because it's easily obtainable by those who wish to obtain it. It is a dramatic leap in performance and consistency. Could it have been implemented better by Paragon? Sure, many of the ATs are the product of absolutely horrible design choices being improved upon over time, especially stalkers and dominators.  You can fund a permadom build without a single purple in your build. How is that 'unfair'? Is it 'unfair' for a dual blades scrapper to be unable to run the maximum DPS chain without building for it? Is it 'unfair' that scrappers with the ATO will significantly outperform those that don't? I suppose it is, but does it warrant massive change when the remedy is effectively "work on your build for like five minutes" and (at risk of sounding elitist) "learn to play"? No.

What is not fair is that in all the other examples you cited the shift in performace is not as drastic nor locked behind as many resources. A Scrapper on SO's can get merits and just slap their ATO in and be marginally better, but still have to play well and utilize the proc as it occurs, same with even the  Stalker ones. 

 

A dom cannot do the same thing with as much fluidity, needing on average at least 5 LotG's, and on average the recharge bonus is found on the 5th slot of an IO set and gives between 5-8% recharge, so they need multiple sets of IOs to stack together and as I showed earlier even with Hasten there are gaps until a certain point. If there weren't such an awkward gap to getting just decent Domination up-time, let along perma, Dominators could have a much smoother range of build options not just at the high end but while leveling and learning the game for everyone.

 

What is the solution to that? I'm not sure.

 

Should it break current permadom set ups? Hell no.

 

Would the game be better if this one oddity was ironed out to work "as expected" compared to most every other like power? I believe it 100% would be.

[kenlon]

16 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

How is that 'unfair'?

The difference between having 122% recharge and 123% recharge is thirty seconds of downtime on Domination. The difference between 121% and 122% is miniscule, and anything 124% and beyond is irrelevant. 

 

How is it fair that that one percent makes such a large difference? People who build for permadom will still have it, under these proposed changes, and those who don't will have a better, less inconsistent time, especially during leveling. How would it harm you if other people could come closer to what permadom gives you?

Edited April 17, 2020 by kenlon

[ScarySai]

6 minutes ago, kenlon said:

How is it fair that that one percent makes such a large difference?

How is it fair that an entire AT's core ability should be nerfed because some hypothetical build came up short on recharge because it was either unfinished or was built improperly? It's no different than other goals in the game centered around IO builds. Domination is binary: You can maintain it with permadom, or that bar goes down if you come up a second short, heck, sometimes you can hit it just before it goes down.

 

6 minutes ago, kenlon said:

How would it harm you if other people could come closer to what permadom gives you?

I do not support fundamentally changing how a very, very, very important power works in the name of 'accessibility' when it is already a very accessible. If you are leveling, domination is pretty consistent with just a bit of recharge. Hypothetical new player probably isn't soloing +4x8 where permadom starts becoming necessary to not die horribly, otherwise they'll pop it plenty of times, and if they want to perma it, they can look up how, ask how to do it, and people like me will help guide them to that awesome goal.

 

Unless it is to 'bring up' an often skipped, under-performing powerset, I am generally against changing what Paragon left behind for us. I am against domination being changed, I am against Hasten being changed, but if HC wanted to take a look at something like regen, energy melee or DB's combo system? I'd be interested in that.

Edited April 17, 2020 by ScarySai

[Galaxy Brain]

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

How is it fair that an entire AT's core ability should be nerfed because some hypothetical build came up short on recharge because it was either unfinished or was built improperly? It's no different than other goals in the game centered around IO builds. Domination is binary: You can maintain it with permadom, or that bar goes down if you come up a second short, heck, sometimes you can hit it just before it goes down.

This is not a nerf thread

 

I have not once said to nerf Domination, what has been bounced around is removing the barrier to get to permadom or at least smoothing it out.

 

That is a buff my friend. 

[kenlon]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

How is it fair that an entire AT's core ability should be nerfed because some hypothetical build came up short on recharge because it was either unfinished or was built improperly? 

I'm not aware of any other AT in the game that has the same behavior - adding enhancements, up to the ED limits of course, results in an increase in capability in a roughly linear way. IO set bonuses are the same way: 5% resist is always 5% resist, whether you're at 0 or 70.

 

Are there any other ATs with this sort of situation? I'm genuinely curious now.

 

EDIT: And how is it a nerf, anyway? No one is suggesting taking away permadom, though would have to either a) actively play the game or b) turn off autocasting Domination when you plan to be afk for a while. 

 

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Unless it is to 'bring up' an often skipped, under-performing powerset, I am generally against changing what Paragon left behind for us.

I strongly disagree - the HC devs have made significant changes since they went live, and they have all been for the better, as far as I can tell. This is no longer a static shrine to a long-past glory day, but a live game again. And it's great. (Also, they're looking at Energy Melee soon, according to the good Captain.)

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by kenlon

[Galaxy Brain]

5 minutes ago, kenlon said:

And how is it a nerf, anyway? No one is suggesting taking away permadom, though would have to either a) actively play the game or b) turn off autocasting Domination when you plan to be afk for a while. 

Strictly speaking, it would be a nerf as the mentioned idea would take away the ability to do that, as trivial to performance it may be in the grand scheme.

 

Nobody here I think wants to nerf perma dom, but just not make it as arbitrary a wall.

[kenlon]

Enh, I can't view having to be, you know, playing the game as something worth considering a nerf. Especially since it opens up build possibilities and makes the AT better for players who don't have the build knowledge and free inf* lying around to get permadom. (Huh. I wonder how low level you can squeeze into permadom? TO MID'S!)

[ScarySai]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is not a nerf thread

 

I have not once said to nerf Domination, what has been bounced around is removing the barrier to get to permadom or at least smoothing it out.

 

That is a buff my friend. 

I'm not speaking of you there. I agree with your intentions, but don't see a solution that wouldn't compromise the viability of existing permadom builds, and I see doing that as unacceptable.

 

Also, sorry I missed your reply, must have scrolled past it.

 

15 minutes ago, kenlon said:

I'm not aware of any other AT in the game that has the same behavior

Every AT has a recharge requirement to use their "max DPS chain", a notably difficult one being dual blades, which is pretty much impossible to run solo if you don't specifically use a secondary with +recharge.

 

Most ATs require building for some defense/resistance in order to not get thrown through the wall the minute they get tapped, this goes double for squishies, like defenders, blasters, controllers, dominators, some masterminds. Is it unfair that those who build for this are able to survive longer? I suppose you could argue it, but I wouldn't call it unfair. They put in the effort and got rewarded for making a good build. To me, this is no different.

15 minutes ago, kenlon said:

I strongly disagree - the HC devs have made significant changes since they went live, and they have all been for the better, as far as I can tell.

I love the mastermind AI changes, I love the snipe changes (once they listened and added the tohit bit, especially.) and I love what they did for beam rifle and devices. They handle system changes and slight tuning pretty well, I've seen.

 

When it comes to redesigning powers, or balancing powers? I think they've done an awful job with a few, as well. Rage, the cornerstone of super strength was unceremoniously destroyed and is on the shelf indefinitely. Gun drone was given a taunt for god knows what  poorly rationalized reason and the ability is even more worthless than it already was as a result. Dark melee had a fantastic change to dark consumption on the table and was altered before becoming yet another shelf decoration, because a mini nuke killing +0 minions was just too powerful I guess.

 

Notice, how the good changes involve things I support: Bringing up under-performers, adjusting the clunky garbage to be reliable, making bad sets good. I am 100% for that, but am not for altering core abilities that are fine as they are.

 

Of course, the reply to that is "They aren't fine as they are", to which I vehemently disagree, but you know, that's an argument that could go on forever.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by ScarySai

[kenlon]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Every AT has a recharge requirement to use their "max DPS chain", a notably difficult one being dual blades, which is pretty much impossible to run solo if you don't specifically use a secondary with +recharge.

And if you don't have enough recharge to use the absolutely most optimal attack chain, how much of a loss in damage is it? Is it linear based on how short you are of the needed recharge or does it drop off a cliff? (Assuming a situation where you keep trying to use the optimal, as opposed to subbing in some other power, simply to make the point.)

 

5 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Rage, the cornerstone of super strength was unceremoniously destroyed and is on the shelf indefinitely. Gun drone was given a taunt for god knows what  poorly rationalized reason and the ability is even more worthless than it already was as a result. Dark melee had a fantastic change to dark consumption on the table and was altered before becoming yet another shelf decoration, because a mini nuke killing +0 minions was just too powerful I guess.

 

The fact that the devs are fixing bugs is a good thing, even if it inconveniences a set. I distinctly disagree with you on it destroying the set, though SS is fundamentally badly designed and needs fixing. (Leaning on an overpowered stacking Build Up to make up for the powers being undertuned garbage is bad.) The gun drone thing I dunno anything about, so I'll refrain from comment. And the Dark Consumption change was removed because people didn't like it in the feedback threads, which I will admit was baffling. I'm not sure why you'd hold them not making a change to something against them, given that you've said you'd prefer to leave it in the state Paragon left things. . . 

(The Shadow Maul changes have been great, though, and it's not like Dark was a bad melee set to begin with.)

 

[Galaxy Brain]

I take responsibility for that dark melee change. That was more an issue for how the power works and scaled being inheritley a disaster to leverage.

 

As for Domination, let's step away from changing that power itself then and look towards making it work more...

 

Change or add a Dominator ATO that specifically adds duration to Domination, or reduces Domination recharge significantly. 

 

Add +rech to the self buffs you get in Dom secondaries. 

 

Etc

[kenlon]

That feels like an attempt to stick a bandaid on something with fundamental design problems to begin with, though. Needing an ATO to 'fix' an inherent makes baby Jesus sad. Think of the baby Jesuses.

 

If we want to keep Domination as something that can be kept up all the time without needing ongoing damage, then I'd say just remove the need to fill the bar at all. At level 1, you'd have 90 seconds of uptime with a 200s recharge, scaling smoothly with +recharge buffs until you get to perma status. 

 

Would that cover your problems with the idea, ScarySai?

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, kenlon said:

And if you don't have enough recharge to use the absolutely most optimal attack chain, how much of a loss in damage is it?

Can often be bigger than you'd think.

 

7 minutes ago, kenlon said:

The fact that the devs are fixing bugs is a good thing, even if it inconveniences a set. I distinctly disagree with you on it destroying the set, though SS is fundamentally badly designed and needs fixing.

I'm okay with fixing bugs, though I think they often use the 'bug' thing as an excuse to nerf something, like what I suspect is what they did with tar patch. Fact of the matter is that SS as it is was balanced with double rage's nonsense in mind. Taking that away without compensation was a bad move, and delaying urgent fixes the way they did wasn't a good look. Tar patch was the way it was since the very beginning of the game's lifespan. I'm pretty sure it didn't need to be 'fixed', and even granting that it was unintended and simply let alone due to deadlines, I figure it should be left alone just by virtue of it being that way since the dawn of time.

 

7 minutes ago, kenlon said:

And the Dark Consumption change was removed because people didn't like it in the feedback threads

No, people really liked the first version, it was a bit crazy powerful because dark melee can buff it's own damage by a lot, because soul drain, but nothing I'd call out of line. The second version was okay mechanically, but way over-nerfed. People didn't like the third version because the idea of a fifteen second DoT was just stupid and very unpopular even to people who disagreed with me about the first version and considered it too powerful.

 

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I take responsibility for that dark melee change. That was more an issue for how the power works and scaled being inheritley a disaster to leverage.

You're one of the few people who provided data instead of trying to inject their awful ideas into the thread, I have some reservations about the testing methodology, but you did fine.

Edited April 17, 2020 by ScarySai