TA/Arch - DEF/COR/Blaster

[CantgetRight]

So, I need some help. I wanted to make a TA/Arch toon, but after reading the Def and Cor forums has me a little worried that I'll basically just be useless baggage all the time.  They all seem to say the same thing, make a Blaster. I would rather be more of a DEbuffer/ Support type, but I would also like the be useful and bring stuff to a team. Is the DEF/Cor  "unplayable" or "useless?" Do they get better later on?If I'm just wasting my time with them can the Blaster be built to throw out some useful de-buffs and support a little while doing a lot  of damage? Cause the Blaster forums seem to love the sets they have. I don't really care to Min/Max perfectly, but I do want to enhance the team and not just be carried threw everything. I have a 28 Def right now and can't solo at all. I keep dieing constantly with the lowest setting, and it is frustrating. I solo more on the off hours cause of my time zone, but at night its all teaming when everyone wakes up (lol that sounds funny). Need some help and advice. I still don't have a  lvl 50, I have a few Lvl 45 AT's and even more in the 30's, but nothing I have stuck with. I don't know anything about procs, or Mid/Maxing builds or anything like that. I basically been reading and reading trying to figure it out or stealing builds to get by. 

 

P.S. I know my English isn't great please be nice. 

[Braddack]

Lets say it this Way, i have an Lvl 50+ Trick Arrow / Fire Defender, and i love him to Death.

The Debuffs i have makes Teams simply Steamroll trough Content, Avs going down in Seconds.

 

Sure i cant Buff, but in Endgame Buffs arent that usefull anyway.

 

I love the big AOE Debuffs i have and with Oilslick i provide solid AOE Damage beside my Fire Attacks.

 

Sure most People dont even recognice the Effort, all you hear is Stuff like "that was easy " " I never tought we woud do so good " etc.

 

But i Know that i did my Part and that i am worth the Spot i take on the Team.

 

As for Soloing, i solo most Content fairly normal and have no problems.

 

Start with Blind Arrow, follow by Glue Arrow, Freeze the Leut. Net one of the Minions, bast the last one to death, reaply the freeze, blast the second Minion , and then kill the Leut.

 

Later on apply Arrows as needed and usefull, Like Oilslick on large groups, Light it on Fire and see em burn hrhrhr.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Braddack

[Braddack]

here an Post from a Beginners Guide to Defenders:

 

 

 

 

Shadewe steps up to the podium, adjusts some papers, clears her throat, and looks at her audience with a calm, confident look of determination...

 

I'd like to take a moment to call to attention what I feel is the misunderstood nature of Trick Arrows.

 

I have seen now two people claim that it is "flawed", "broken", "tier 3"; I would like to say that I feel that this could not be further from the truth. Trick arrows does one thing, and one thing only; it debuffs. Dark miasma debuffs, but it also heals. Radiation debuffs, but it also resurrects. Trick Arrows does not heal, it does not buff, it does not resurrect; it debuffs, and it does it very very well.

 

Right out of the gates you have flash arrow. As soon as you start playing, you can neuter your enemies ability to hit anything, making the prized "healer" nigh-useless. Right around the corner is glue; if you don't think glue is useful, ask your blaster and sentinel friends if it's useful having 10+ people all in one tight little bundle that can't move, and then watch as your capstone AoE goes to town on some unsuspecting people.

 

You might then say, "But Shadewe, what about big nasty bosses, elites, AV's and GM's? You don't have -regen as well as some other skills, you can't possibly do anything useful!" Nay I say, your usefulness is just beginning!

 

First off is your bread and butter, EMP arrow. EMP a targeted AoE, not PBAoE (safety first!) to both hold nearby minions and -regen the AV, which will buy you a little time while your acid arrow and disruption arrow get added on (oh, the debuffs!), making the offending target as soft as a marshmallow. By then, your precious DPSers and tank should have things firmly under control, and the day is saved.

 

You might then say, "But Shadewe, Trick Arrows can't do everything, thus it must be bad!" Nay I say, for they whom specialize at everything specialize at nothing.

 

Yes, there are sets that have more options than trick arrows; I'd argue that ALL primaries have at least as many options as Trick Arrows, for Trick Arrows does only one thing, but it does it very, very well; it debuffs. While others will argue that Trick Arrows is Tier 3 because it does not have multiple options, I counter that it is Tier 1 as its focus is unparalleled.

 

To further add, Trick Arrows is also the only (as far as I know) power set that gives you extra tricks up your sleeve! Do you like your Fulcrum Shift? One Oil Slick, divided a dozen times or so, and you have targets galore! Do you like extra damage? One Oil Slick with a fireball and you have damage galore! It even acts like a mini-dominatrix, mini-dominator, with Ice arrow and EMP keeping things nice and safe for your group so a silly empath doesn't have to!

 

I am not expecting this message to sway the masses; keep your Time, Empath, Dark Miasma, your Nature and Thermal! I send this message out to those whom keep an open mind that there is a better way! There are options out there besides "you must have healing in your group" (which, if I remember correctly, was the original point of this thread to begin with)!

 

If you're watching this thread and feel afraid to try Trick Arrows because others label it Tier 3, I will stand up and proudly say that I am playing Trick Arrows and that I love Trick Arrows! If you want to follow the crowd, your Empath or Time defender awaits. If you want to be different, to have fun, and to bring justice/terror to the world, a Trick Arrows build might be just what you're looking for!

 

Shadewe collects herself, nods to the crowd, and steps down from podium. She doesn't know if anyone will hear her words, but if even just one person might break out of their shell and try TA, then it will be worth it...

[Psyonico]

Here's my TA/A build, it solos +1x2, but that's about it.  TA is not the greatest soloer, but it can do.  note enhancement levels are just what mids was set at when I was building and are not necessarily what I have in the powers.  As usual, I expect my build to be gutted for not having enough defense, but I can keep 2 Disruption arrows up perma, so there's that.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Secondary Power Set: Archery
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Flash Arrow -- DmpSpr-ToHitDeb(A), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/Rchg(46), ToHitDeb(48)
Level 1: Snap Shot -- Dcm-Acc/Dmg(A), Dcm-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Dcm-Dmg/Rchg(25), Dcm-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Dcm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 2: Aimed Shot -- Dcm-Acc/Dmg(A), Dcm-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Dcm-Dmg/Rchg(5), Dcm-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Dcm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 4: Glue Arrow -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(5), RechRdx(15)
Level 6: Fistful of Arrows -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(7), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(15), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(31), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37)
Level 8: Poison Gas Arrow -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(9), RechRdx(9)
Level 10: Blazing Arrow -- Dcm-Acc/Dmg(A), Dcm-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Dcm-Dmg/Rchg(11), Dcm-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Dcm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 12: Acid Arrow -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(13), AchHee-ResDeb%(48)
Level 14: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Krm-ResKB(43)
Level 16: Aim -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(17), RechRdx(23)
Level 18: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(19), RechRdx(19)
Level 20: Explosive Arrow -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(21), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(21), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(31), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(43)
Level 22: Ice Arrow -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(23), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(25), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(31), Lck-Rchg/Hold(43), Lck-%Hold(45)
Level 24: Entangling Arrow -- TraoftheH-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A), TraoftheH-EndRdx/Immob(40)
Level 26: Oil Slick Arrow -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Dmg-I(29), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 28: Aid Other -- Heal-I(A)
Level 30: Aid Self -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(40), HrmHln-Heal/Rchg(45), Mrc-Heal/Rchg(46), IntRdx(50), IntRdx(50)
Level 32: EMP Arrow -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(33), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(33), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(33), Lck-Rchg/Hold(34), Lck-%Hold(34)
Level 35: Maneuvers -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff-I(48), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(50)
Level 38: Rain of Arrows -- Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(39), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Rgn-Dmg(40)
Level 41: Power Build Up -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(42), RechRdx(42)
Level 44: Tactics -- EndRdx(A)
Level 47: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Field Medic -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(7), EndMod(17)
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 50: Spiritual Radial Paragon 
------------

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[Hjarki]

There are two power sets involved here.

 

The first is Trick/Tactical Arrow. Now, there are some good uses for Trick Arrow. But the lack of recharge or defense-boosting abilities tends to make those uses very limited. With the right pairing, Trick Arrow can work - but it really needs that right pairing. Tactical Arrow tends to be a more generally strong set. It's probably the best Blaster secondary for a purely ranged Blaster build.

 

The second is the various forms of Archery. Of the forms, the Corruptor set - with its 1.188s tier two attack - is probably the best. However, the set as a whole tends to emphasize slotting more like a Blaster than a Defender. It is not a 'proc monster' set and you'll generally use Explosive Arrow as part of your single target rotation (which means you're emphasizing its basic damage rather than procs in it).

 

Ultimately, I don't think Archery/Archery is a particularly strong choice for any of the AT. I probably wouldn't play either Archery set as a Defender. If I played it as a Corruptor, I'd pair Archery with something other than Trick Arrow. If I played it as a Blaster, I'd pair Tactical Arrow with something other than Archery.

[SeraphimKensai]

Trick Arrow has so many useful proc applications. If you're going that route, proc it out you won't be disappointed.

 

Tactical Arrow is just a great secondary for blasters. Mind you it's mostly about upshot, eagle eye, agility, and gymnastics.

 

Both are fun to play

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Ultimately, I don't think Archery/Archery is a particularly strong choice for any of the AT. I probably wouldn't play either Archery set as a Defender. If I played it as a Corruptor, I'd pair Archery with something other than Trick Arrow. If I played it as a Blaster, I'd pair Tactical Arrow with something other than Archery.

My Archery/Tactical Blaster (50+3) is quite good and fun to play: I think it's quite a viable combination.  Any problems (such as highly-resisted damage types) come from the Archery primary, not the pairing with Tactical secondary.  So this would apply to any Archery/* Blaster build, not just Archery/Tactical.

 

Archery/TA Corruptor, on the other hand, not so much (as you point out).  Here the problem is the Trick Arrow secondary, which while thematically consistent, isn't really synergistic with Archery (go figure).  So this would apply to any */TA Corruptor build, not just Archery/TA.  Yes, there are proc gimmicks you can use with TA to improve the situation (as others have pointed out).  However, they're just that: gimmicks.  Trick Arrow needs -- and from what I hear, will soon get -- a serious buffing effort.  So the problems with Trick Arrow might just be going away soon.

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Tactical Arrow is just a great secondary for blasters. Mind you it's mostly about upshot, eagle eye, agility, and gymnastics.

Truth.  I have a handful of Blasters with Tactical Arrow simply because the auto/toggle powers are too good to pass up.  The only time they ever draw the bow is to get a pesky hover-mob out of their face with E-Net Arrow (the unavoidable T1).

[Hjarki]

21 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

My Archery/Tactical Blaster (50+3) is quite good and fun to play: I think it's quite a viable combination.  Any problems (such as highly-resisted damage types) come from the Archery primary, not the pairing with Tactical secondary.  So this would apply to any Archery/* Blaster build, not just Archery/Tactical.

 

Archery/TA Corruptor, on the other hand, not so much (as you point out).  Here the problem is the Trick Arrow secondary, which while thematically consistent, isn't really synergistic with Archery (go figure).  So this would apply to any */TA Corruptor build, not just Archery/TA.  Yes, there are proc gimmicks you can use with TA to improve the situation (as others have pointed out).  However, they're just that: gimmicks.  Trick Arrow needs -- and from what I hear, will soon get -- a serious buffing effort.  So the problems with Trick Arrow might just be going away soon.

 

I don't think Archery/TA is utterly dysfunctional. I just think it tends to be inferior to other approaches.

 

Consider Dark/TA vs. Archery/TA. They've got a very similar structure. However, Dark permits you to:

• Replace the low damage basic attack from Archery with the high damage Gloom
• Replace the low damage/fast recharge Rain of Arrows with the high damage/slow recharge Blackstar (this also gives you certain advantages in slotting)
• Replace the low damage Ice Arrow with the higher damage Abyssal Gaze.
• Also debuffs the target(s) with -hit.

The rest of the core functionality is pretty much the same. Moonbeam and Ranged Shot are both equivalent Sniper attacks. Aim is Aim. Umbral Torrent and Explosive Arrow are fast-activating 80 range target AE.

[plainguy]

Range cap hover blaster..

Doing 3/8 setting.

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Science Defender
Primary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Secondary Power Set: Archery
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- TraoftheH-Acc/Rchg(A), TraoftheH-EndRdx/Immob(3), TraoftheH-Acc/EndRdx(3), TraoftheH-Immob/Acc(5), TraoftheH-Acc/Immob/Rchg(5), TraoftheH-Dam%(7)
Level 1: Snap Shot -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(9), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 2: Flash Arrow -- CldSns-ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(13), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(33), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(43), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(45), CldSns-%Dam(46)
Level 4: Glue Arrow -- Slow-I(A)
Level 6: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 8: Ice Arrow -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(13), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(34), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(40)
Level 10: Poison Gas Arrow -- LthRps-Acc/Rchg(A), LthRps-EndRdx/Sleep(15), LthRps-Acc/EndRdx(36)
Level 12: Acid Arrow -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A), TchofLadG-DefDeb/Rchg(15), TchofLadG-%Dam(48)
Level 14: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(45)
Level 16: Fistful of Arrows -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(17), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(19), Rgn-Knock%(19)
Level 18: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 20: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(21)
Level 22: Blazing Arrow -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(23), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Apc-Acc/Rchg(25), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(25)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42)
Level 26: Oil Slick Arrow -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(34)
Level 28: Explosive Arrow -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(29), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(29), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(31), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(36)
Level 30: Ranged Shot -- StnoftheM-Acc/Dmg(A), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx(36), StnoftheM-Acc/ActRdx/Rng(37), StnoftheM-Dam%(37), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 32: Hover -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(33), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(33)
Level 35: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 38: Rain of Arrows -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(39), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(40)
Level 41: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(42), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(43), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(43), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(48), GssSynFr--Build%(46)
Level 44: Super Speed -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 47: EMP Arrow -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), Lck-%Hold(48), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(50), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(50), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(50)
Level 49: Power Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(45)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(46)
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon 
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface 
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 1: Quick Form 
------------

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[LordScrod]

So, I'm much more of a lurker than a commenter, but having played since Beta in 2003, I can say with some authority that the TA/Archer Defender (or Archer/TA Corruptor or Anything/TA MM) is entirely viable for top-tier content, even solo. Let me address some points:

 

1 - Archery's "Low Damage"

It's not low. It's higher than everything but Fire, Beam Rifle, and Radiation in its Damage/Cast Cycle. It's also the highest inherent accuracy of any set. You hit more often, so you deal damage more often. Look at Snap Shot vs Dark Blast:

 

	Snap Shot	Dark Blast
Average Damage	6.32	9.30
Dmg/Activation	6.32	9.30
Dmg/Cast Cycle	2.11	1.86
Activation	1 Second	1 Second
Recharge	2 Seconds	4 Seconds
End Cost	3.54	5.2
Accuracy	1.15x	1.00x

 

That 1.86 Damage Per Activation is seen a lot in other sets. Three sets do slightly better in the D/Act department, but no one has the inherent accuracy of Archery, not even Assault Rifle. Accuracy increases damage. Archery attacks hit 15% more often than equivalent attacks from most other sets. A miss is zero DPS. So, even if your snap shot just does one point, it's still more than the Dark Blast that whiffed.

 

The second part of the 'low damage' argument is that Archery is mostly Lethal damage. Even Blazing Arrow is a lethal attack with a fire DOT on it. Explosive arrow is smash/lethal. Lethal is one of the most common resistances in the game. Even by level 15 or so, you're running into groups that have mobs with some inherent resistance. By level 50, most everyone has at least a little lethal resistance under their belt. Make no mistake: that is indeed a factor! And if it was the only factor in a Trick Arrow/Archery build, then, yes Virginia, Archery needs a little love. Even with the accuracy bonus, a mob with 50% lethal resistance but 10% dark resistance is going to hurt more from dark attacks, even with the occasional whiff.

 

Fortunately: Trick Arrow has some solutions for you.

 

2 - Trick Arrow Is 'Extra Baggage'

 

Nonsense. In fact, it's nonsense and balderdash. Trick Arrow just isn't as flashy as other sets. It doesn't make your allies glow, it doesn't create an idyllic glade on the battlefield, and it doesn't come with thunderstorms and rain. As was pointed out in the excellent post above: Trick Arrow is a debuff set. It does all debuffs, all the time, and it does them very, very well. I echo Shadewe's experience of being in groups where they said 'Wow, that was easy!' and stand around patting the blasters and brutes on the back while I'm leaning against the wall with a raised eyebrow and faint smirk. Of course it was easy. You know why? The enemies you were fighting were suffering a few issues:

 

A : -30% Accuracy from three Flash Arrows.

B : Slowed by 90% and nicely grouped up from the Glue Arrow.

C : Damage Debuffed by -31.25% when they weren't choking (slept) from the Gas Arrow.

D : Defense Debuffed by a base of -25% and taking 20% more damage from the Acid Arrow that sprayed all over them.

E : Taking another extra 20% damage from the Disruption Arrow playing bongos on their atoms.

F : Falling on their asses over and over (plus possibly being on fire) from the Oil Slick Arrow.

G : Mass-held from the EMP Arrow (which lets that Ice Arrow hold a boss quite nicely, thank you).

 

That's not 'extra baggage', and anyone who thinks Trick Arrow is 'Tier 3' (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) probably just doesn't know everything we bring to the table. Being able to rapidly evaluate the current situation and use the right arrow is vital to playing effectively. Not every arrow is used in every single fight. Really, I wish it had been called 'Tactical Arrow' (though it's a great name for the blaster set, which is a lot of this in a lite beer version). You will use some arrows in nearly every fight, and you'll save at least one of them for the Oh Shit button.

 

And, remember that problem with Archery dealing only lethal damage? As a solo Defender you get +30% inherent, and Acid plus Disruption boost it by another 40% through reducing enemy resistance. Tack on Assault for another 18% for you, and suddenly the baddies' high resistances ain't so high. Yes, it is true that if you were dealing Energy you'd be doing more, but the thread is about Trick Arrow/Archery being viable, not raw optimization. The two sets work very well together thanks to those resistance debuffs, and when you combine it with everything else Trick Arrow brings to the table, you can solo quite well.

 

3 - Your Arrows And When To Use Them

 

A : Entangling Arrow

A simple 'I didn't say you could leave' arrow. You know when your Rad or Dark using buddies leave their Infection/Darkest Night toggled on the minion that's now running full-tilt to aggro the other group? That's when you use it. Also it brings down flying enemies. Scrappers will thank you for the consideration.

 

B : Flash Arrow

This makes sure your overzealous Brute doesn't aggro the neighboring group while lining up his perfect AE ground-stomp. If that neighboring group is close, it doesn't hurt to drop this on them. In the immediate fight, that -ACC debuff stacks. Just a couple of slots to increase its effectiveness will let you apply a -10% accuracy debuff to them. Each application falls off after a full minute, and your base recharge is 15 seconds. Usually this'll be down around 7 seconds by the time you've slotted a few set IOs. And if you opt for Hasten, 5 seconds or better. It's no Hurricane, but it builds up to be better than Hurricane if you spam it, or if you want to spend a little time prepping the next group for your attack. That's not so viable in groups, but solo, psh! Spend thirty seconds cutting their accuracy in half and then don't even worry about getting hit. I use this several times every fight.

 

C : Glue Arrow

The Bread, as I call it, because it lays the foundation for all the horrible things you're going to do to the baddies. Slot it with three slows (and maybe a recharge), and it'll come with its own Chariots of Fire soundtrack for slow-motion running. By itself it cannot slow Elite Bosses or things like Warwolves down to the absolute minimum, but it does make a dent. Plenty for you to keep away from a mean solo fighter like that. It holds the bad guys in your Disruption and Poison fields quite nicely, and a little bit of -Recharge never hurts. I use this every fight.

 

D : Ice Arrow

Single-target hold with a long duration. That annoying Medic or Empath lieutenant can't do their job encased in ice, now can they? Also, when stacked with literally any other hold effect will hold a boss. And by the way, you do have another hold in your quiver. More on that later.

 

E : Poison Gas Arrow

The Butter, as I call it. 31.25% damage reduction for all enemy attacks across the board. Oh look! I have 'psionic resistance' as a Defender! No, not quite, but it's more than that Invulnerability tanker has. On top of which, it's a sleep with a 24 second baseline. It's not 100% sleep, but any enemy not shooting is doing zero damage. I use this every fight, sometimes more than once since Elites and AVs will take a while to take down.

 

F : Acid Arrow

Share the love. Give your team an even better accuracy bonus (and make your own shots hit that much more). Plus, let them inflict 20% more damage across the board. The only problem with Acid Arrows is that ticking 1 point of damage. It wakes up baddies who are choking on your gas. But, that said, the splash on the Acid Arrow is not huge. Mostly I use it to soften the Boss, because he wasn't slept by the gas anyway. Duration on the acid is 20 seconds, and the base recharge is 20 seconds, which means that you'll eventually get it down to 10-ish or better. The effects stack, so that 20% damage resistance debuff can get down to 60% if you push it, and 40% without trying. That lethal damage is getting more lethal all the time! I use this in nearly every fight.

 

G : Disruption Arrow

Pick a spot to throw a party, usually right in the middle of your glue field. The radius on the Disruption effect is huge, and it's a 20% resistance debuff. It lasts 31.5 seconds with a one minute recharge. By mid to late 30's you'll be able to have two down for a short time. It's easy to use at least one every fight, and you'll have two stacking for brief periods during Elite/AV fights. You can eventually get this to two at almost all times with the right build.

 

H : Oil Slick Arrow

Jam for the Bread & Butter. This is your damage power. Yes, you heard right: Damage Power. It's an Ice Sheet you can set ablaze, a sleet storm that does more than just knock them over. Enemies on the slick are always falling down. They try to run off it, but can't because they're falling down (and probably slowed by glue, right?). It lasts a good long while, and then you can set it on fire! It's what your Fire Arrow was made for. Slot it like a damage power, apply the resistance debuffs from your other arrows, and if you're solo, it's like a Burn / Inferno over a very wide radius that the baddies can't escape. The damage is ridiculous. Minions are melted, LTs are cooked, and Bosses are a crispy, golden brown. If nothing else, everything is now nice and softened for your incoming Rain of Arrows. Cooldown is 3 minutes, so it's not every single fight until top levels, but plenty fast enough to use it on a new mob.

 

I : EMP Arrow

The Oh Shit button. It's a 3 magnitude hold, which combines with anything else to hold a Boss. At a 5 minute baseline recycle I admit I don't use it as often as I should, but I like having it handy for when the Brute pulls that other team by accident, or an MM minion goes running off to the restroom guarded by 20 Malta Sappers. That -1000% to regen rate is great for a big push to put a dent in (or finish off) Elites/AVs, and if someone on the team is playing the Endurance game, this'll drain a whole group by over half. I slot it like a Hold since that's the effect I need most often.

 

So, that's a lot going on. And it's no wonder folks look at it all these options and go 'Lol! Chrono Shift go brrrr!'. This is not a face-roll set. (Neither are any of the others, not purely, but there are easier sets to play.)

 

3 - But I'm Not A Defender

 

That's okay, because all this stuff applies in nearly the same ways to everyone else that can use Trick Arrow as a secondary. Corruptors don't get quite the debuff numbers, but they do get Scourge and have higher baseline damage at all times. You're still going to wreck some faces even with the -15% to resistances from Disruption and Acid. Your baseline Oil Slick damage is actually the same as the Defender version, plus gets the benefit of Scourge. You have to work a little harder at the Support part of your role than the Defender, but that's Corruptor life.

 

As a Mastermind your support numbers are identical to Corruptors for some things, and worse for others, BUT!! your're not really a support class. You're mostly a damage class with support secondaries. You're still getting -15% to resistance from Disruption and Acid, and your Oil Slick damage is the same. Plus minions no longer run out of burning oil (thank the friggin gods, because that used to be SO aggravating way back when). My Ninja/Trick Arrow is doing +2x6 by 32 and +4x8 at 50 with no real problems.

 

I've never done a Trick Arrow Controller, largely because none of their primaries speak to me for it. I dunno. If I've got a quiver full of trick arrows, then I should have some regular arrows in there to shoot too, no? That's just me. I'm sure it could do very well with some of the Controller primaries, though keep in mind you still need something to ignite your oil slick. Only fire damage will do it.

 

4 - Things You Can't Do

 

You can't solo Hamidon. Sorry, but that's not in the cards. Don't feel bad, because the only ATs that can grab their own Hami-O's have to use very specific power sets and slotting to have a chance. And some of those have to do it perfectly. Even one mis-stroke and they lose. 

 

You can't do +4x8. At least, not against Incarnate content. Strangely, Malta is doable, but only with a lot of setup between groups and a couple pills from the tray. Council, sure, but anyone can +4x8 those goons if you've got any KB resistance at all. Most other groups are beyond the Trick Arrow/Archery ability to solo at crazy difficulty. Oddly though, not for an Archery/Tac Arrow though, but that's Blasters for ya. I'll admit, mine is tricked out to the nines, but +4x8 was the name of the game until Dark Astoria, and then after a couple of Incarnate abilities and a few more IO sets, and I was back up there.

 

You can't heal. Not without Aid Other that is. I usually grab that, Aid Self, and Combat Medic for that reason. You can't save people from making mistakes, and even with all your debuffs, the team will take the hits. I'm not saying you need to heal every boo-boo, and if a team expects that from you, then the Empath is right over there. But, the odd spot-heal can be pretty clutch at the right time. And for an MM, it does save on downtime to toss the odd heal rather than dismissing to re-summon.

 

Conclusions:

 

Well, I hadn't intended this to go so long as to need a conclusion, but I really like Trick Arrow and find it one of the most underrated sets, because it's not flashy, and debuffs go unnoticed. It's more difficult to use than other sets, because it requires more working knowledge of the game, and strong tactical awareness. You need to know who the enemies are, what the do, which ones to hold, which ones to acid, and so on. You need to recognize when the fight is going wrong to hit the EMP Arrow, and you need to know how to lay down ground-target abilities to greatest effect. I would not recommend Trick Arrow as your very first character, unless Green Arrow / Hawkeye is your favorite superhero of all time, and that's what you want to play. If that's the case, you'll love it. The learning curve is steep, but you'll feel like you're those guys.

 

One thing to remember, City is not one of those games where optimizing to the Nth degree is going to net you massively more effectiveness than anyone else in your role. If your prime goal is making bad guys face-plant as fast as possible, then there are other builds (though a Nina/Trick Mastermind just about does that). You'll take down entire groups with Trick Arrow, but it needs a bit of setup, and intelligent application of your abilities. There's a reason Fire/Spines is THE farming build and not Trick Arrow/Archery.

 

Bringing it all home: Have fun with it. Don't let other people tell you how to play. You are far more effective than some will give you credit for. You can play this solo to great effect.

Hope this was useful! 🙂

 

--Scrod

 

[Hjarki]

Archery's 'low damage'. You're comparing two terrible attacks that no one ever wants to use - and the fact that Defenders are forced to use them is a strong argument for not taking these sets as a Defender. The attacks you should be comparing are the high damage attacks, not the filler attacks that you rarely use. Defenders in particular place a strong emphasize on how 'proc friendly' attacks are - being able to slot more procs is important damage-wise. The accuracy bonus tends to be fairly trivial (I believe it's 5%, not 15%). The particular problem Archery faces is that it has one strong attack (Ranged Shot) and nothing to really back it up. Contrast with sets like Fire, Ice, Psi or (yes) Dark that have two strong single target attacks. This is especially important for Defenders/Corruptors, whose 'rotation' often ends up being more of a priority list in between support set activations.

 

Trick's Arrow versatility. Unfortunately, having one or two really strong powers tends to be better than having a lot of weak ones. Because Trick Arrow has no recharge, accuracy or defense, slotting also becomes a major concern. So while I'll take Tactical Arrow's Glue Arrow (a legitimate AE blast) routinely, Trick Arrow's Glue Arrow rarely makes the cut. Indeed, the same can be said for the bulk of the low end of Trick Arrow. It's a lot of effects you probably don't need, don't want to waste time using or are difficult to slot. Even when you get to the top end, you're talking about debuffs that aren't quite as good as what other sets bring. I think Trick Arrow works with Illusion because its ability to set Containment is tremendous. I think Tactical Arrow works for Blasters because it makes a lot of those mediocre powers into effective damage powers while providing little tweaks like lowering the recharge on EMP Arrow from 500 to 90 seconds.

 

So while I think it's useful to examine how to make a set you're going to play anyway more effective, I think it's also important to put those sets in context. The reason Trick Arrow is 'under-rated' isn't so much because people don't understand it but because it's rarely the first choice of power set from the standpoint of effective mechanics.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Hjarki

[LordScrod]

Okay, a few points.

 

Snap Shot is a 'power no one wants to use'? It doesn't produce a big number, yes, but it's low endurance and ready every two seconds. If procs are your thing, then you want to be attacking as rapidly as possible to give procs a chance to pop. Unless you kids are using 'proc' in a different way than I'm used to, Snap Shot helps.

 

1.15 is fifteen percent more than 1.00. That's just plain math.

 

I'm sorry to say that if you're waiting on Ranged Shot for all your damage in Archery, then yes, no wonder it's so disappointing. So, let's compare a few things:

 

Ranged Shot versus Moonbeam - Sniper Attacks

 

	Ranged Shot	Moonbeam
Avg Dmg	41.85	41.85
D/AT	11.40	12.57
D/Activation	2.67	2.73
Activation Time	3.67s	3.33s
Recharge	12s	12s
Accuracy	1.39x	1.20x

Slightly higher on the DPS, but consider the accuracy bonus. 39% versus 20%. Ranged Shot will hit nearly twice as often.

 

	Aimed Shot	Gloom
Avg Dmg	9.30	16.37
D/AT	9.30	14.88
D/Activation	1.86	1.80
Activation Time	1s	1.10s
Recharge	4s	8s
Accuracy	1.15x	1.00x

Functionally identical, except for the accuracy bonus, so I'd give Aimed Shot the edge so long as you're handling their lethal resistance (which Trick Arrow does).

 

Archery has the Fire Arrow, but everything else from Dark is utility or an AE attack. I suppose we can compare their Novas.

 

	Ranged Shot	Blackstar
Avg Dmg	15.66	37.20
D/AT	7.83	12.40
D/Activation	0.23	0.25
Activation Time	2s	3s
Recharge	1m5s	2m25s
Accuracy	1.00x	1.40x

 

Yes, Blackstar does a bigger number, and hits more often. It recharges in more than twice the time though, so it certainly needs the accuracy bonus, particularly since we're running into the center of the enemy mob.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Trick Arrow having 'no recharge, accuracy, or defense'. You mean it doesn't buff you with those things? That can't be what you're saying, and I must be misunderstanding. For its debuffs, it's not strong on the -recharge front, but -22.5% base reduction to defense from one shot over several grouped baddies seems pretty good to me. For Accuracy, Entangling, Ice, Acid, and EMP use a to-hit check. Everything else is auto.

 

As for 'time taken to activate them', I mean, we're talking three to four seconds to get Gas, Glue, Disruption, and Acid out there. They should already have one or two flashes on them as your melee is running in, so that's -10 to 20% to the accuracy off the bat. If Oil Slick is happening then that's usually first. And Oil Slick should be an every-battle type of power once you're up to top levels. You want to land it right about the moment the melee does their alpha.

 

I'm not sure what 'difficult to slot' means. What's hard about Accurate Defense Debuff or Slow or Sleep? There's clearly something I'm not understanding there, and I'd appreciate anything you can add.

 

I dunno, man. I'll team up with a Stormie or Rad any day and hold my own quite confidently. Hell, half my stuff is fire-and-forget. I can get down to helping do damage a lot quicker than some sets. And again, I'd argue any damage my Resist debuffs is contributing goes to my tally, and that's a lot.

[LordScrod]

Okay, so I went and inquired in Everlasting's Help Chat about this proc business, because slotting solely for procs made very little sense to me.

 

Apparently, you have a greater chance for a proc based on the power's recharge time. So, six-slotting a power with procs can make for some insane damage in slow-charging powers. Yes, that's true. In that regard: Archery is not the set for you. Not by any means. It tends to recharge faster than everyone else, and has no secondary effects to leverage should no proc occur.

 

So, yes, in that regard, I agree with Hjarki. A proc-based build for Archery isn't the way to go. It's built for rapid, accurate damage, not... whatever proc-building is. 😛 

 

All in all, I'd end with: Never feel bad for playing what you want to play. If you're a Defender, your role is not making the bad guys face-plant as fast as possible. It's about helping your team do that and keeping them safe while doing it. Trick Arrow/Archery is thematic, fun, and effective, and I think I've demonstrated that. It was not built for the new hotness that's been introduced with the proc changes, but then, not much was specifically built with that in mind either. So, play it if it's your thing. I certainly am not retiring any of mine. 🙂 

 

--Scrod

[Hjarki]

39 minutes ago, LordScrod said:

Snap Shot is a 'power no one wants to use'? It doesn't produce a big number, yes, but it's low endurance and ready every two seconds. If procs are your thing, then you want to be attacking as rapidly as possible to give procs a chance to pop. Unless you kids are using 'proc' in a different way than I'm used to, Snap Shot helps.

Proc chance is normalized into ppm based on the inherent cycle time (recharge / slotted recharge + activation) of the power. However, any forms of global recharge don't affect proc chance. This means the way you optimize recharge is to take slow recharge powers, slot no inherent recharge and just run them off global recharge. Snap Shot is one of the worst powers in the game to slot procs due to its low basic recharge. Aimed Shot is a strictly better attack on Corruptors and Defenders. Aimed Shot is usually better on a Blaster. However, neither are really attacks you use much - they're mainly used as mules.

43 minutes ago, LordScrod said:

Ranged Shot versus Moonbeam - Sniper Attacks

 

Both sniper attacks have a damage of 162.7 in sniper mode, 99.8 in fast mode. In fast mode, this would result in a dpa of 75.0. Both will hit at exactly the same rate because they're higher accuracy than your other attacks which have the same global accuracy applied.

 

Gloom is 48.2 dpa with an 8 sec recharge (for those procs, as I noted above). Aimed Shot is 31.4 dpa with a 4 sec recharge. Blazing Arrow is 47.2 dpa on a 10 sec recharge.

 

However, what you're missing is that every single Dark attack can slot an additional +71.75% damage proc. On Gloom, that would be an additional +29.6 dpa (not affected by +damage) over what you could do with a comparable Archery attack.

55 minutes ago, LordScrod said:

Yes, Blackstar does a bigger number, and hits more often. It recharges in more than twice the time though, so it certainly needs the accuracy bonus, particularly since we're running into the center of the enemy mob.

My comments about Blackstar vs. Rain of Arrows were specific to Blasters. With Defenders/Corruptors, you'd normally want a ranged ultimate because you're not anticipating killing the entire spawn and the way you slot your powers means you don't need a PBAoE. With Blasters, you really want a PBAoE for slotting opportunities in most builds and you're normally 'straight slotting' the powers. Moreover, your damage scale is so high that you can realistically expect to annihilate entire spawns with your ultimates. As a result, having a massive burst of damage is better than having a slightly-better-than-Fireball AE.

 

On a Defender, Rain of Arrows is somewhat limited due to its lack of proc opportunities. On a Corruptor, Rains of Arrows is fairly decent due to how rains and Scourge interact.

58 minutes ago, LordScrod said:

I'm not sure what you mean by Trick Arrow having 'no recharge, accuracy, or defense'. You mean it doesn't buff you with those things? That can't be what you're saying, and I must be misunderstanding. For its debuffs, it's not strong on the -recharge front, but -22.5% base reduction to defense from one shot over several grouped baddies seems pretty good to me. For Accuracy, Entangling, Ice, Acid, and EMP use a to-hit check. Everything else is auto.

Trick Arrow does not provide global recharge, global accuracy/hi or defense buffs. Those are the key elements for a Defender power set to support the blast set. They're what enable you to slot powers for pure offense rather than needing to straight-slot them for set bonuses.

 

-recharge is a useless debuff. On non-AV/GM, enemies rarely get a chance to cycle their debuffs. On an AV/GM, it gets resisted too heavily to mean anything.

-defense is also a useless debuff since building for the hit cap is the norm.

 

1 hour ago, LordScrod said:

I'm not sure what 'difficult to slot' means. What's hard about Accurate Defense Debuff or Slow or Sleep? There's clearly something I'm not understanding there, and I'd appreciate anything you can add.

'Difficult to slot' = no good set options.

 

In general, if you're going to 5- or 6- slot something, you want to be using a purple set, an Archetype IO set or a Winter set. Almost anything else is going to give you sub-standard results. On some types of powers, there are better or worse slotting options at lower levels of investment.

 

Slow and Sleep are amongst the worst of the options. While Sleep has a purple set, it's not a particularly impressive one - it's very common to see Sleeps slotted for Archetype IOs instead (at least on Controllers/Dominators - most other ATs don't even bother to take them in the first place). Slow has a single damage proc option but is otherwise really unimpressive. Not only do you get mediocre set bonuses, but the distribution of Accuracy/Damage/Slow/Endurance/Recharge/etc. tends to be terrible.

 

Defense Debuff actually tends to be pretty good from the standpoint of procs, but you don't have the purple/Archetype/Winter options.

 

I think we may be talking about different stages of the game. If you're playing at lower levels or with basic IOs, you're not going to see the disparities I'm talking about. Once you're looking at the 50 game where you've got IO sets and Incarnates, the disparities can get pretty big.

 

[CaptTastic]

I played a fully IO’d TA/Archery Defender on Live and I can say with absolute honesty it was arguably the most powerful team toon I had (of 27 level 50s I played) and by far and away the most fun. 

[Parabola]

Trick arrow as a debuff set needs a bit of love. However, it takes procs like a champion so if your aim is to create a support character I'd look elsewhere but if you want to create an offbeat little dps machine then you can do a lot worse than trick arrow on a defender. I'd stear well clear of archery as a secondary though. My trick arrow/dark blast proc monster is one of the most fun things I've played recently.

 

I also have an archery/tac arrow blaster and she is great also but in a much more straightforward way. All ranged hover blasting; simple to build and simple to play.

[CantgetRight]

Well first off thanks for all the comments and advice. I didn't realize that this would kind of open a can of warms. My defender is in the 40s now  still can't solo for crap, but seems to excel in a team, which isn't a bad thing (being a Defender). I will be rereading this forum for the builds and all the write ups. I can understand that my build will already need some redoing after reading this. If you guys want to continue discussing please feel free. I'm sure someone else will also find it as helpful as I did. 

 

Now back to the top to read more. 

[Psyonico]

11 hours ago, LordScrod said:

B : Flash Arrow

This makes sure your overzealous Brute doesn't aggro the neighboring group while lining up his perfect AE ground-stomp. If that neighboring group is close, it doesn't hurt to drop this on them. In the immediate fight, that -ACC debuff stacks. Just a couple of slots to increase its effectiveness will let you apply a -10% accuracy debuff to them. Each application falls off after a full minute, and your base recharge is 15 seconds. Usually this'll be down around 7 seconds by the time you've slotted a few set IOs. And if you opt for Hasten, 5 seconds or better. It's no Hurricane, but it builds up to be better than Hurricane if you spam it, or if you want to spend a little time prepping the next group for your attack. That's not so viable in groups, but solo, psh! Spend thirty seconds cutting their accuracy in half and then don't even worry about getting hit. I use this several times every fight.

I'm going to stop you right there.  Flash Arrow does not stack from the same caster.

[Redlynne]

9 hours ago, LordScrod said:

Snap Shot is a 'power no one wants to use'? It doesn't produce a big number, yes, but it's low endurance and ready every two seconds. If procs are your thing, then you want to be attacking as rapidly as possible to give procs a chance to pop. Unless you kids are using 'proc' in a different way than I'm used to, Snap Shot helps.

5 slot Snap Shot with Decimation (keep the Build Up proc) and you can produce some really surprising results.

 

Snap Shot    
Decimation - Accuracy/Damage
Decimation - Damage/Endurance
Decimation - Damage/Recharge
Decimation - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
Decimation - Chance of Build Up

 

Your best results will happen when you Snap Shot before using AoE attacks, since the damage buff will affect every $Target hit by the AoE(s) ... and if you build your attack chain right you can get the buff on multiple AoEs.  You just need to activate the attacks within the 5.25s buff duration AFTER Snap Shot finishes animating, but it's perfectly fine to activate a power at 5.1s into the 5.25s buff duration and have the damage buff apply to that attack, even though the animation time "overhangs" beyond the 5.25s after Snap Shot before the animation is completed.

[Hjarki]

42 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Your best results will happen when you Snap Shot before using AoE attacks, since the damage buff will affect every $Target hit by the AoE(s) ... and if you build your attack chain right you can get the buff on multiple AoEs.  You just need to activate the attacks within the 5.25s buff duration AFTER Snap Shot finishes animating, but it's perfectly fine to activate a power at 5.1s into the 5.25s buff duration and have the damage buff apply to that attack, even though the animation time "overhangs" beyond the 5.25s after Snap Shot before the animation is completed.

While exploiting the floor on proc chances is interesting, the practical value isn't very high. WIth the Aimed/Snap sequence, your expectation is that you'll get a proc once every 39 secs or so. If you just put the proc in a standard 10 sec attack with perma-Hasten levels of global recharge (+175%), you'd expect to see the proc once every 25 secs or so. And, of course, the Aimed/Snap sequence is doing terrible dps even when the proc is active, much less when it isn't.

 

The sequence being illustrated is also backwards from how most fights go. You open with AE rather than single target because once you've aggro'd the spawn, you're normally either gathering them around yourself (rarely desirable with a purely ranged set like Archery) or they're being scattered. To make this scheme really work, you need some sort of 'perfect spawn' that is prepared to receive your AE damage precisely when you get a lucky proc.

[Rathulfr]

15 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

While exploiting the floor on proc chances is interesting, the practical value isn't very high. WIth the Aimed/Snap sequence, your expectation is that you'll get a proc once every 39 secs or so. If you just put the proc in a standard 10 sec attack with perma-Hasten levels of global recharge (+175%), you'd expect to see the proc once every 25 secs or so. And, of course, the Aimed/Snap sequence is doing terrible dps even when the proc is active, much less when it isn't.

 

The sequence being illustrated is also backwards from how most fights go. You open with AE rather than single target because once you've aggro'd the spawn, you're normally either gathering them around yourself (rarely desirable with a purely ranged set like Archery) or they're being scattered. To make this scheme really work, you need some sort of 'perfect spawn' that is prepared to receive your AE damage precisely when you get a lucky proc.

This is especially tricky with Rain of Arrows, because of it's delayed DoT effect, which is so frustrating.  The mobs scatter as soon as the to-hit roll lands the first wave of arrows (which is before the animation), so they're running out of range of the second and subsequent waves of arrows.  If you fire Snap Shot first and then RoA, you're exacerbating that problem: the aggroed group will start to move when your Snap to-hit lands, thereby taking a few of the mobs out of range of your RoA, even if it's immediately after Snap.

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Doomguide2005]

Not by any means a TA expert but Glue Arrow first?  How resisted by +3/+4 mobs is its -speed in 'holding' them in place for things like RoA?

[LordScrod]

14 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I think we may be talking about different stages of the game. If you're playing at lower levels or with basic IOs, you're not going to see the disparities I'm talking about. Once you're looking at the 50 game where you've got IO sets and Incarnates, the disparities can get pretty big.

 

I'll agree to that, because the stuff we're talking here is esoteric, end-of-game, bored-out-of-our-skulls kind of building that is not the least bit intuitive. I don't feel like it's addressing CantgetRight's question of 'Are Trick Arrow and Archer characters useless?'. No. They're not. They're not hyper-efficient, but the majority of players are not building for that or anything close. I would never advise a brand new player to avoid a set they want to try based on possible endgame builds. As quickly as the developers laid this new proc hotness on us, they'll turn it around and make Archery THE go-to set with some kind of math-alchemy.

 

7 hours ago, CantgetRight said:

Well first off thanks for all the comments and advice. I didn't realize that this would kind of open a can of warms. My defender is in the 40s now  still can't solo for crap, but seems to excel in a team, which isn't a bad thing (being a Defender). I will be rereading this forum for the builds and all the write ups. I can understand that my build will already need some redoing after reading this. If you guys want to continue discussing please feel free. I'm sure someone else will also find it as helpful as I did. 

 

Now back to the top to read more. 

I wouldn't worry about the can of worms. 😄 What you're seeing here between me and Hjarki are two players who have played every AT, virtually every power set, have a few dozen Incarnates with a couple billion influence on each, and can practically rattle off mechanics without looking at the Wiki. I wasn't aware of the changes made to proc-based builds, but don't even worry about those until you've played for a while and are looking for new things to try. It is by no means a standard way of building a character. Mostly, have fun with the game, and always feel free to ask questions! 🙂 

 

4 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

This is especially tricky with Rain of Arrows, because of it's delayed DoT effect, which is so frustrating.  The mobs scatter as soon as the to-hit roll lands the first wave of arrows (which is before the animation), so they're running out of range of the second and subsequent waves of arrows.  

 

Yes, if only there was something that could... I dunno, 'Glue' them in place. Or maybe something really 'Slick' for them to trip and fall on.... /snark /snark /snarf 😄 😄 😄 

 

4 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Not by any means a TA expert but Glue Arrow first?  How resisted by +3/+4 mobs is its -speed in 'holding' them in place for things like RoA?

Works great against +3's, and 'okay' against +4's in my experience. You'd really rather throw the Slick down for +4's because the ticks of knockdown build up over time, and even Elites will slip and fall, if rarely.

 

7 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I'm going to stop you right there.  Flash Arrow does not stack from the same caster.

Generally it says in the power if multiple applications don't stack. Where is your information coming from? I'm certainly not infallible, but it's been my experience that four of five of these means most of the bad guys are whiffing. I don't have empirical evidence, just a lot, lot, lot of anecdotal experience.

 

--Scrod

[Doomguide2005]

As it's not a new power set I'd probably check Mids' .  It should indicate if the power does not stack from the same user