Dark Regeneration Question

[Rylas]

How do +Endurance procs work in DR for Dark Armor? Is the chance per activation, or per target hit? And would it be beneficial to slot the Panacea and Theft of Essence procs both?

Edited April 30, 2020 by Rylas

[Psyonico]

Panacea should go into Health, otherwise it works on a 120 second timer.  I've never done anything but frankenslot Dark Regen, but I would assume it works the same as all other AoEs in that you have a chance for it to proc per enemy hit, but it can only proc once per power activation.

[InvaderStych]

Can't speak to Dark Regen specifically, but I've been running Theft of Essence in Radiation Therapy (targeted AoE heal from /Rad armor) and it (effectively) procs per target.  That is to say I get the +end per target.  I don't know if it calculates the proc once and applies it to all targets in range, or if it calculates individually per target (Proc Experts will know), but I do know that more targets = more endurance gain.

 

In theory it should work the same in similar powers.

Edited April 30, 2020 by InvaderStych
Clarity

[Doomguide2005]

Yes, at least prior to he proc changes, ToE returned +end based on the number of targets hit.  Putting it in Dark Regen was a very good idea for DA users.  Can't  say I knew the exact mechanics but it definitely and significantly solved DA's endurance issues.

[Rylas]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

...I would assume it works the same as all other AoEs in that you have a chance for it to proc per enemy hit, but it can only proc once per power activation.

 

2 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Putting it in Dark Regen was a very good idea for DA users.  Can't  say I knew the exact mechanics but it definitely and significantly solved DA's endurance issues.

Hmm, maybe I'm just not understanding correctly, but I feel like these are two conflicting statements. If it can only proc once per activation, then ToE wouldn't even overcome Dark Regens endurance cost, let alone ease DA's end issues. What am I not getting?

[Doomguide2005]

Well my knowledge is prior to the proc changes but it could refill the end bar back on Live (if my 7y old memories are correct).  If we could invoke Werner ... I'm thinking he'd know for a certainty both post and pre proc changes.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Doomguide2005
Clarity

[InvaderStych]

14 minutes ago, Rylas said:

 

Hmm, maybe I'm just not understanding correctly, but I feel like these are two conflicting statements. If it can only proc once per activation, then ToE wouldn't even overcome Dark Regens endurance cost, let alone ease DA's end issues. What am I not getting?

 

To hazard a guess- The chance to trigger is calculated once.  If it triggers you get the +end from each target in range.  Again, @Bopper and the other Proc Experts should have a more precise explanation.

 

6 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Well my knowledge is prior to the proc changes but it could refill the end bar back on Live (if my 7y old memories are correct).  If we could invoke Werner ... I'm thinking he'd know for a certainty both post and pre proc changes.

 

ToE will fill my bar (again, speaking to Rad Therapy, but Dark Regen should be the same) given enough targets in range.  I think the PPM chances were more about frequency than number of targets, again hazarding a guess here.

Edited April 30, 2020 by InvaderStych
corrected user tag

[Rylas]

2 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

To hazard a guess- The chance to trigger is calculated once.  If it triggers you get the +end from each target in range.  Again, @Bopper and the other Proc Experts should have a more precise explanation.

Ah! I see now. Thanks for the clarification. 

 

From what I recall, PPMs are calculated by recharge time of the power with any enhancements to recharge slotted being part of that calculation. However, global recharge is not. Would anyone know the probability of ToE firing on any given activation so long as no recharge is enchanced? With a 3.5 PPM and a 30 recharge base, I would think it would fire pretty much nearly all the time.

[Doomguide2005]

Just took a glance down thread to Werner's post on his MoITF +4/×8 run.  The build, a Katana/DA, uses ToE in Dark Regen

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

To hazard a guess- The chance to trigger is calculated once.  If it triggers you get the +end from each target in range.  Again, @Bopper and the other Proc Experts should have a more precise explanation.

Incorrect. The chance to trigger is calculated independently on each target. So if you have 5 targets, you get 5 hit-rolls. The range of outcomes is it can proc 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 ,or 5 times. It requires binomial probability to determine the probability of each of those outcomes.

 

2 hours ago, Rylas said:

From what I recall, PPMs are calculated by recharge time of the power with any enhancements to recharge slotted being part of that calculation. However, global recharge is not. Would anyone know the probability of ToE firing on any given activation so long as no recharge is enchanced? With a 3.5 PPM and a 30 recharge base, I would think it would fire pretty much nearly all the time.

I can help with that. I'm assuming we're talking about Dark Regeneration? If so, I'll need to look up the radius and I'll edit this post with the answer.

 

Edit:

With no recharge slotted and no alpha that does +recharge, you get the following chance to proc on each target (independently).

Prob = 3.5*(30+1.17)/60/(1+.75*.15*20)=55.95%

 

So if you have 9 targets you hit with DR, on average you'll get 5 procs of ToE (50% of max endurance)

Edited April 30, 2020 by Bopper

[Rylas]

39 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Edit:

With no recharge slotted and no alpha that does +recharge, you get the following chance to proc on each target (independently).

Prob = 3.5*(30+1.17)/60/(1+.75*.15*20)=55.95%

 

So if you have 9 targets you hit with DR, on average you'll get 5 procs of ToE (50% of max endurance)

Thank you! Definitely going to avoid putting recharge in there then. 

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Rylas said:

Thank you! Definitely going to avoid putting recharge in there then. 

Nope, make it a proc bomb. If you want more reliability, you can also use Panacea. In health, on average, it procs once per 20s. You can probably do better than that with dark regem if you have enough global recharge. I did something like that with my Bio Scrapper, should work here too.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Bopper

[Rylas]

3 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Nope, make it a proc bomb. If you want more reliability, you can also use Panacea. In health, on average, it procs once per 20s. You can probably do better than that with dark regem if you have enough global recharge. I did something like that with my Bio Scrapper, should work here too.

Currently the build has 58.75% global recharge. Hoping that's enough.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Rylas said:

Currently the build has 58.75% global recharge. Hoping that's enough.

No Hasten? Then it'll be up every 20s. If you can guarantee hitting more than 1 target every 20s, then do it. But if fighting an AV with no other enemies around you, its not a good idea. Keep in mind, DR costs 33 endurance. So you might want to invest in two level 50 HOs to increase its Health/EndRedux If you can afford to make them both +2, that'll be 73% improvement on each

[InvaderStych]

52 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Incorrect. The chance to trigger is calculated independently on each target. So if you have 5 targets, you get 5 hit-rolls. The range of outcomes is it can proc 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 ,or 5 times. It requires binomial probability to determine the probability of each of those outcomes.

 

I can help with that. I'm assuming we're talking about Dark Regeneration? If so, I'll need to look up the radius and I'll edit this post with the answer.

 

Edit:

With no recharge slotted and no alpha that does +recharge, you get the following chance to proc on each target (independently).

Prob = 3.5*(30+1.17)/60/(1+.75*.15*20)=55.95%

 

So if you have 9 targets you hit with DR, on average you'll get 5 procs of ToE (50% of max endurance)

 

Thanks for the correction.  I'm still wrapping my brain around PPM details.

 

At the risk of derailing, Rad Therapy has a base recharge of 60s with a 1.03 cast.  At a glance using the Google Doc PPM calc that's well over the 90% clamp.

 

Enhancing recharge there to 41s (ToE Heal/Rech and Touch of Nictus Heal/Rech) seems to drop the chance to around 75% if I am using the G-Doc version of the PPM calc correctly.  Using only one of those enhances recharge to 48 secs, resulting in 88% chance.  Any of that sound right?

 

[Bopper]

17 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Thanks for the correction.  I'm still wrapping my brain around PPM details.

 

At the risk of derailing, Rad Therapy has a base recharge of 60s with a 1.03 cast.  At a glance using the Google Doc PPM calc that's well over the 90% clamp.

 

Enhancing recharge there to 41s (ToE Heal/Rech and Touch of Nictus Heal/Rech) seems to drop the chance to around 75% if I am using the G-Doc version of the PPM calc correctly.  Using only one of those enhances recharge to 48 secs, resulting in 88% chance.  Any of that sound right?

 

First off, feel free to ask me anytime for proc clarification. I'm always happy to help.

 

Those numbers you mention look right on paper, but I'll need to plug it in myself to verify. Give me a few minutes and I'll edit this post with findings.

 

Edit

Radiation Therapy: 60s base cooldown, 1.03s cast time, 20 foot radius.

With 0 recharge, you have 90% chance to proc on each target hit (uncapped it would be 109.5%, but max is 90%).

You are allowed up to 22.1676% recharge in the power to retain the 90% chance to proc.

 

You mentioned a ToE Heal/Recharge (level 30 this is 21.75% recharge). So if you only use ToE, you can keep the 90%.

 

You mentioned a ToN Heal/Recharge (level 50 this is 26.5% recharge). So if you only use ToN, you have an 86.981% chance to proc on each hit target.

 

If you used both (48.25% recharge), you will have 74.4911% chance to proc on each hit target.

 

All that being said, if you're looking to Frankenslot, I recommend the Golgi Exposure, which will give +33.3% Heal and +33.3% Endurance Reduction. If you have a few and can combine it into a +2 HO, it becomes 36.63%. Have two of the +2 HOs in Radiation Therapy will make its endurance cost reduced from 13 to 7.52 (72.93% reduction) and its heal will be increased by 72.93%

Edited April 30, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

@InvaderStych I just finished editing. I hope that helped.

[InvaderStych]

12 minutes ago, Bopper said:

@InvaderStych I just finished editing. I hope that helped.

 

Awesome.  Helped Immensely. Nice Pro Tip on the Golgi Exposure.

[Rylas]

34 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You are allowed up to 22.1676% recharge in the power to retain the 90% chance to proc.

Oh! Now that's good to know. I was weighing the benefits/costs of trying to get some set bonuses in my frankenslotting for DR. The only thing holding me back was that it has 18% recharge enhancement. 

 

Don't have to worry about it now. 😄

[oldskool]

The slotting choices on Dark Regen do depend a lot on what you're trying to accomplish.  I use an Obliteration 5pc + ToE in Dark Regen on my Stalker.  It costs 28 end to cast.  That is not a problem when surrounded by enemies.  I still wind up endurance positive despite its slotting due target saturation.  This was done by me on purpose to survive hordes of enemies.  I do not DR for ST situations with that character.  

That said, I had some endurance conscious slotting of a set on my Tanker/Scrapper builds (Scirocco's 4pc all but the /recharge items) and Cardiac Core Paragon as the alpha.  The cost gets driven down to just 10 end per cast and it is largely end positive in most situations.  That should work for a Brute too if you're looking for another small Energy/Negative resistance bonus. 

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Rylas said:

Oh! Now that's good to know. I was weighing the benefits/costs of trying to get some set bonuses in my frankenslotting for DR. The only thing holding me back was that it has 18% recharge enhancement. 

 

Don't have to worry about it now. 😄

Keep in mind, the numbers I quoted him are for Radiation Therapy, which has a 60s base cooldown. Dark Regen has a 30s base cooldown. So where as Radiation Therapy had some room for recharge before it hurt proc chances, Dark Regen doesn't have that luxury. Any added recharge in Dark Regen will hurt its Proc chances (for 3.5 PPM, at least)

[Rylas]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Keep in mind, the numbers I quoted him are for Radiation Therapy, which has a 60s base cooldown. Dark Regen has a 30s base cooldown. So where as Radiation Therapy had some room for recharge before it hurt proc chances, Dark Regen doesn't have that luxury. Any added recharge in Dark Regen will hurt its Proc chances (for 3.5 PPM, at least)

Well crud.

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Rylas said:

Well crud.

Sorry...but if you like, here's some slotting you might enjoy:

2 +2 Golgi, Panacea proc, ToE proc, ToN proc, Perfect Zinger proc (NE and Psi damage, plus a ton of heal/end)

 

Or...you might not even need to slot health since you can spam DR and you have Panacea proc. So maybe try:

+5 EndRux IO, Panacea, ToE, ToN, Perfect Zinger, (your pick Fury of Gladiator, Obliteration, Eradication, Armageddon, Scirroco Dervish). Each proc has 56% chance to trigger (72% if Armageddon), and you'll do good damge (maybe resistance debuff too), while heal and gain endurance. If's a fun tool if you are surrounded by enough enemies.

 

Assuming we go simple and do 3 3.5 PPM damage procs, with Panacea and ToE as well. You're looking to do on average 120 damage per enemy hit (from procs, not including the damage from DR, which factors in Fury that I'm not gonna calculate haha). Gain 9.8% of max endurance from each enemy hit. And you heal yourself.

[Werner]

I'd not considered putting Panacea in Dark Regen as it seems a waste of the heal (you'll heal to full either way most of the time), but it might be a way to improve endurance management on some builds, at least when fighting in crowds. Interesting thought. I don't think I'll do it, but I'll keep it in mind.

[Bopper]

19 minutes ago, Werner said:

I'd not considered putting Panacea in Dark Regen as it seems a waste of the heal (you'll heal to full either way most of the time), but it might be a way to improve endurance management on some builds, at least when fighting in crowds. Interesting thought. I don't think I'll do it, but I'll keep it in mind.

For Dark Regen, you might not. But I usually have enough global recharge to get a non-recharge slotted power have at minimum 150% global recharge (when Hasten is up). For Dark Regeneration, that brings its recharge down to 12 seconds. Since I typically have 95% chance to hit, and 56% chance to proc, that gives me an expected proc rate for Panacea of 0.95*0.56/(12+1.32) = 0.04 procs/sec. To compare that with slotting in Health, which averages 1 proc per 20 sec, that becomes 0.80 procs per 20 seconds... and that assumes only 1 target in your radius per activation. 

 

If you have more global recharge, great. Let's assume you have 180% global recharge (typical for perma-hasten), then you're looking at 10.7s recharge and your proc rate increasing to 20s * 0.95 * 0.56 / (10.714+1.32) = 0.88 procs per 20 seconds.

Long story short...if you think you can hit more than 1 target everytime you use Dark Regen, and you use Dark Regen every time it's off cooldown (you might not), it could easily outperform Panacea in Health.

Personally, on my Bio Character, I used a 5-piece Panacea (for the set bonuses) and a ToE proc in the 6th slot of my DNA siphon. I have enough recovery to not run out of endurance within 30 seconds, and with my DNA siphon recharging every 30 seconds, it becomes an easy refill of my blue bar.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Bopper