Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[Zeraphia]

In all sincerity... Why are we focusing on things like Hasten, Domination, and purples on the AH?! What is going on? Seriously? 

 

There are far more important, less dramatic sweeping changes that could benefit under-developed ATs like PB's, Banes, Night Widows, and Sentinels. There are also much more interesting ideas like pet customization, colored arrows, pulling off the redraws of certain sets, etc. that are a net positive for the game and community rather than something that would be horrifically controversial and not necessarily "needed" when the game functions with it as-is. 

[Nanolathe]

Just now, Zeraphia said:

In all sincerity... Why are we focusing on things like Hasten, Domination, and purples on the AH?! What is going on? Seriously? 

 

There are far more important, less dramatic sweeping changes that could benefit under-developed ATs like PB's, Banes, Night Widows, and Sentinels. There are also much more interesting ideas like pet customization, colored arrows, pulling off the redraws of certain sets, etc. that are a net positive for the game and community rather than something that would be horrifically controversial and not necessarily "needed" when the game functions with it as-is. 

Because these are the topics on the front page I guess...

 

And I suppose that, for some people, these are critical issues that are for some reason, more important than other considerations. I dunno. Controversial opinions have more discussion potential than non-controversial ones?

 

I'd /sign most of what you've just mentioned.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

I -think- we agree, y u laff? :<

Just funny how you said it, I do agree.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Nanolathe said:

Super important is, again, a subjective point of view. The more times people say "this is too important to change" especially when it comes to a power that once, warped the entire game around it (not so much anymore due to set bonuses), I personally get an itch to start mucking about with it. 

 

I don't know... Sacred Cows bother me on a fundamental level I guess.

Its not so much a sacred cow as it is just a cow, thats right beside a mutated cow that deficates out of its mouth and causes babys to cry every time it gets near because its so ugly.

 

I guess some people would pick the mutated cow, but not me i dont want to make the babies cry.

[Infinitum]

For instance change up presence and put in a siphon speed like power that maybe not as good as hasten but also causes fear or some other effect.

 

Or something that would compete with hasten to potentially open up other pools.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Infinitum

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

For instance change up presence and put in a siphon speed like power that maybe not as good as hasten but also causes fear or some other effect.

 

Or something that would compete with hasten to potentially open up other pools.

Well Presence I do think should be mostly focused on your character overawing or masking themselves somehow.

Think Gandalf at the start of Lord of the Rings when he yelled at Bilbo.  "Do not take me for some conjuror of cheap tricks!  I am not trying to rob you!"

THAT's what I want Presence to *feel* like.

 

Of course, on the flip side, it's important not to fail your Presence check... as Loki found out when he told the Hulk that he was a god and would not be bullied by some dull creature.....

 

 

[tidge]

4 hours ago, ZacKing said:

I think that's the problem.  Hasten isn't too powerful, it's that other pools suck.  Does anyone even take the presence pool?

I often swim in the Presence Pool. I never take both Provoke and Pacify, but either is useful. I prefer Provoke to the single-target Confronts. Once a toon is soft-capped for defense, Provoke can go a long way towards helping teammates. The best (IMO) use of Pacify is limited to long 1-on-1 fights in which you need a breather. The single-target Intimidate is my least favorite power in the set, but the PBAoE Invoke Panic is a very nice control option. Unrelenting (with enough Global Recharge) is either a strong offensive boost, a strong recovery tool or both.

 

In terms of IO mules, 6-slotting Unrelenting with Preventive Medicine has been common for me when I take it.

 

The most effective use of Presence in my experience has been on low-resist, high defense characters like a Fortunata. The taunt is better (YMMV), the PBAoE fear is another control mechanism that fits nicely with the other controls and attacks, Unrelenting is there for extra damage or for those times when the massive defenses aren't holding. The short straw is Intimidate; it is pretty much only used to help stack fear (from myself or a teammate) when necessary.

 

[ShardWarrior]

@tidge you are the only person I have come across that uses the Presence pool.  I have yet to team with anyone who has it in game, including the years I spent on live.

[tidge]

11 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

@tidge you are the only person I have come across that uses the Presence pool.  I have yet to team with anyone who has it in game, including the years I spent on live.

There is no good reason to use Pacify when teaming... a bad reason would be that the team has wiped! You would have to be paying close attention to notice the difference between Provoke and Confront. The fears can be slotted with damage procs, which make Mayhem missions even more fun. Unrelenting is crazy fun, but you have to have the Recharge to get the most out of it.

 

I realize the Presence pool is unloved, but it has utility for certain builds. If you have a Widow or a SR scrapper, try it out on the test server (or just use a second build). I suppose some Mastermind builds might have the slots for it: Provoke is favored for Tankerminds anyway, so burn a choice on the ST fear but use the PBAoE fear to further lock down critters you have aggroed?

[kenlon]

3 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Why are we focusing on things like Hasten, Domination, and purples on the AH?! What is going on? Seriously? 

In the case of the Domination thread, because finding a way to make PermaDom and NotQuitePermaDom closer in effectiveness would be good for Dominators, and isn't a large change. The AH stuff is, I think, an outgrowth of people seeing the no more double inf for exemping change and completely failing to understand how that impacts the economy and their effective income. 

And for this thread, well, I've had some discussions in game that included Abysmalyxia, and I think he may have green skin and be taking Superadine. . . 😄(This is assuming that he's the guy with that global chat name, of course.)

 

Though, amusingly, in a vacuum I would agree that Hasten is bad game design. But it's baked into the balance assumptions of CoH at a level where removing it would require reworking a ton of things from the ground up, if you don't want to make players feel like they've been nerfed into the ground. Now, changes like that have been made before, and are sometimes needed (Enhancement Diversity being the canon example), but Hasten doesn't distort balance to the point that there's no good option but to remove it.

[MunkiLord]

8 hours ago, ZacKing said:

I think that's the problem.  Hasten isn't too powerful, it's that other pools suck.  Does anyone even take the presence pool?

I have Provoke on one of my Blasters. That might be the only time I've ever taken it.

[THEDarkTyger]

On 4/9/2020 at 2:00 PM, Abysmalyxia said:

No reasonable person thinks Hasten should be kept as is and anyone who argues to do so is merely arguing to keep their current *build* as is, indifferent to the damage it causes to the game itself.

Congratulations, you lost in your first sentence.

[THEDarkTyger]

On 4/9/2020 at 2:13 PM, Abysmalyxia said:

A pool power that is placed into the build of virtually every high level player in the game is broken.

It means no such thing. If you don't want to take it, don't take it. This isn't a competition. You are allowed to play non min/maxed characters.

[SwitchFade]

On 4/16/2020 at 11:34 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

Can we stop quoting the giant first post?

Ok. I'll just quote you 😋

[The Godchild]

Maybe I'm just a weirdo....but outside of extremely niche situations (ie: permadom, perma-chrono shift) there is no reason to take Hasten IMO >.> At best....you might need maybe 60% global recharge to make 99% of attack powers viable n'quick to recharge. Hasten's bonus is pretty much moot beyond that point....and honestly is pretty moot overall since the situations where you might actually need it are points where you're pushing well, WELL past what's required for normal play (that includes incarnate content).

 

This is the same argument I give to people that proclaim the Forced Feedback rech proc to be god-tier: unreliable burst rech means literally NOTHING. There come a point where you statistically get so much less from a single source when you just innately build up enough of the same source. (ie: SLOT FOR RECHARGE) Get it up to 60% and honestly you're golden unless you';re pressing hard for perma-dom or permas-shift (which will give you perma-hasten anyway amusingly).

 

...and ffs, its NOT hard to get 60% global recharge...seriously, I blind-built a grav/elec controller this week from scratch who ended up with 75% rech without even delving deep into build-crafting, it just happened because oif sets I chose as I as leveling up. Pre-50 I had at least 45%...and it was more then enough coupled with energizing circuit.

 

-- Hasten doesn't need to be nerfed, people just need to stop idolizing it as some god-tier power. End of story. --

 

Side note: the number of randos I team with using hasten is....unnerving, like seriously...Everybody seems to take it and no one can give me a legit reason why beyond "Oh hey, more recharge....awesome!" If you want reliable burst recharge....take Ageless as a destiny option, its great for that shit (speaking a someone who uses ageless on a semi-farming brute for burst recharge on savage leap n'rending fury...)

 

...maybe I play this game too damn much since I know details of this facet to such a deep degree >.<

 

Additional side note: Yeah, fuck reading 8 pages of random ranting over people freaking out over the notion. If someone touched on the same notion I did, props to'em...you get my vote for "Most kickass gamer in city of the year".

Edited April 18, 2020 by The Godchild

[Fortuneteller]

Shh now, OP hasn't participated in their smoothbrained thread for six pages now, time to put this one out to pasture.

This thread is no more. It has ceased to be. Its gone to meet its maker. Bereft of life. Rests in peace. If you hadn't continued posting it'd be pushing up daisies. Its metabolic processes are now history. Its off the twig. Its kicked the bucket. Shuffled off the mortal coil. Run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible.

This is an EX-thread.

[The Godchild]

These are daisy's people need to know about though....how else are people gonna realize their god-tier power choice is basically shit?

 

Yeah I went there...FITE ME! (or at least buy me diner n'make a bunch of false promises over candle-light) before you ruin my starling reputation!

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by The Godchild

[Icecomet]

Little does the poster realize that anybody that does taken hasten is making a power pool sacrifice by giving up an entire pool selection for 1 power.  I take hasten on my caster types, sure, but this will then preclude me from taking other things I'd REALLY like to have instead, like leadership, medicine or fighting.

 

Most of my toons take Flight, Concealment and Leaping for what should seem to be the obvious choices I make with those pools and then of course, hasten.  This is a choice and a sacrafice that must be made.  Heck, I don't like that I have to choose 3rd power in flight just to attain the flight speed that I think flight should have in the first place, but that's another story for another time...  😄

 

Lastly, the thread creator needs to learn about respec, since it almost feels like they didn't choose this power and now feel they are somehow at a disadvantage without it...  (and just for the record, I do have many toons without hasten and they do function fine).

 

Icecomet

[Roderick]

1 hour ago, Icecomet said:

Little does the poster realize that anybody that does taken hasten is making a power pool sacrifice by giving up an entire pool selection for 1 power.

Not necessarily. If you want stealth, and it isn't provided by your Primary or Secondary, Super Speed + Celerity: +Stealth is a great way to get it. And if you're already in the SS pool for that, why not get Hasten?

[Nanolathe]

7 hours ago, The Godchild said:

These are daisy's people need to know about though....how else are people gonna realize their god-tier power choice is basically shit?

 

Yeah I went there...FITE ME! (or at least buy me diner n'make a bunch of false promises over candle-light) before you ruin my starling reputation!

If it's so bad that it's a basically a "trap" power, as you imply, then why have it there at all? 

😁

[Icecomet]

29 minutes ago, Roderick said:

Not necessarily. If you want stealth, and it isn't provided by your Primary or Secondary, Super Speed + Celerity: +Stealth is a great way to get it. And if you're already in the SS pool for that, why not get Hasten?

 

Ok, I guess you missed the point I was making meaning its the only power you want from that pool, sheesh.

 

[The Godchild]

1 hour ago, Nanolathe said:

If it's so bad that it's a basically a "trap" power, as you imply, then why have it there at all? 

Eeeeh, wouldn't call it a trap power directly but it can seem that way when people rely on it for basically every build they make :/ Its 'bad' in that its effect can be replicated easily with set bonuses and rech does have a pretty steep drop off in returns so alot of times people are way, WAY overclocked on rech that they really don't need or are getting any real benefit from.

[Icecomet]

1 hour ago, Nanolathe said:

If it's so bad that it's a basically a "trap" power, as you imply, then why have it there at all? 

😁

 

Actually, in my opinion, there are a LOT of trap powers, like, who tf ever wants boxing?  Nobody!  But you take it as a rite of passage to get the tough and weave.  Personally, I'd like to see one of the following:

 

1.  All the pools unlocked so you can get whatever you want from the pools without the investment in a bunch of powers that nobody wants or needs (i.e. boxing as mentioned above).

OR

2. And I like this one the best, make one massive "pool" of all the power pools (excluding the ancillary/epic pools) and make it so you can take whatever you want, but are limited to, for example, 10 total powers from the pool.

 

Obviously, the total number in option #2 could be debated, but this isn't the time for it.  Just saying, I'd enjoy being able to take fly, acrobatics, tough, weave and phase shift (as examples) in that order without any other pre-reqs.  I mean, wow, the fun  you could have with character concept development and how you want to enjoy the game.  I mean, I am assuming that I am not the only person that plays this game purely because its one of the best MMO's ever invented and because its incredibly fun, right?  I mean, let's have fun with it and remove all these silly restrictions stopping us from having fun.  It's not a timesink for cash MMO anymore people, let's have fun in ways never imagined back when we played in live.  I mean, I just can't see why we want to keep ourselves so restricted now that its not being run by a money grabbing corporation.  It's like the MMO companies have everybody so brainwashed into believing that they need to be screwed over that they cannot imagine anything different.

 

Icecomet

 

[Nanolathe]

40 minutes ago, Icecomet said:

 

Actually, in my opinion, there are a LOT of trap powers, like, who tf ever wants boxing?  Nobody!  But you take it as a rite of passage to get the tough and weave.  Personally, I'd like to see one of the following:

 

1.  All the pools unlocked so you can get whatever you want from the pools without the investment in a bunch of powers that nobody wants or needs (i.e. boxing as mentioned above).

OR

2. And I like this one the best, make one massive "pool" of all the power pools (excluding the ancillary/epic pools) and make it so you can take whatever you want, but are limited to, for example, 10 total powers from the pool.

 

Obviously, the total number in option #2 could be debated, but this isn't the time for it.  Just saying, I'd enjoy being able to take fly, acrobatics, tough, weave and phase shift (as examples) in that order without any other pre-reqs.  I mean, wow, the fun  you could have with character concept development and how you want to enjoy the game.  I mean, I am assuming that I am not the only person that plays this game purely because its one of the best MMO's ever invented and because its incredibly fun, right?  I mean, let's have fun with it and remove all these silly restrictions stopping us from having fun.  It's not a timesink for cash MMO anymore people, let's have fun in ways never imagined back when we played in live.  I mean, I just can't see why we want to keep ourselves so restricted now that its not being run by a money grabbing corporation.  It's like the MMO companies have everybody so brainwashed into believing that they need to be screwed over that they cannot imagine anything different.

 

Icecomet

 

Not to be a contrarian, but my Melee MM makes use of Boxing, and every other fighting pool power. I can't claim that it's a good build, but for concept they, or something like them are absolutely essential. I wish they (kick, boxing and cross) were better, so concept would more than just that. And mixing it up in Melee really hurts his END bar.. but I digress.

 

I see the logic in keeping some powers "locked" behind a certain number of powers if, and only if, those powers are impactful enough that some form of investment is deemed necessary, but then you have to intentionally underpower the earlier selections. It's a catch 22 - either the powers ALL need to have some level of parity, and thus not as much impact on playstyle for most ATs, or you have to gate powerful powers behind weaker ones. Or have them unlock based on level, not your investment of powers in a pool.

 

---

How do you make a power not a "trap"? For all (or at least most) Archetypes? At all levels of play, both in game character "security level" and also player skill level?

Without them being dull, wishy-washy or underperforming fluff?

---

 

It's tricky, and would require an complete revamp of how pool powers can either be chosen, or a total revamp of the powers themselves, or both!

 

Not saying I disagree. I'd love to let my idea of a character override some of the, perhaps, unnecessary hand-holding and limitation on what's "right" for the AT. But In doing away with such things the balance of the game would probably be very warped - something I absolutely do not want to see.

 

CoH is the best MMO out there today, no argument against that.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Galaxy Brain]

What if all pool powers followed the

Fighting and medicine styles? Aka, the more you invest in the pool the stronger each power gets.

 

Example, each power you get in stealth increases the defense each time gives or some other bonus.

 

Each power in flight improves flight speed and boosts Air Superiority damage.

 

Etc