Energy Melee - Does not need

[0th Power]

22 minutes ago, Voltor said:

Just revert the issue 13 changes to Energy Transfer,  also I believe once upon a time EM had mag 3 stun in its attacks and it was nerfed to mag 2.

 

Revert Energy Transfer back to what it was, and increase the stun mag to 3

It was the total focus that was reduced.  I thought it was 4->3, but it may have been 3->2

 

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Voltor said:

Just revert the issue 13 changes to Energy Transfer,  also I believe once upon a time EM had mag 3 stun in its attacks and it was nerfed to mag 2.

 

Revert Energy Transfer back to what it was, and increase the stun mag to 3

Wasn't it a mag 4 stun that was reduced to mag 3?

[Troo]

I think but can't confirm it was Total Focus with the big stun (between ET and TF)

[Haijinx]

The Stun isn't really all that important. 

 

Melee ATs have so much survivability they can usually ignore anything short of an Elite Boss.   And usually don't even need to worry about those much. 

 

[Greycat]

20 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The Stun isn't really all that important.

Perhaps... but I had a lot of fun with stuns. Especially in PVP... though that was pre-PVP revamp, too.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Greycat said:

Perhaps... but I had a lot of fun with stuns. Especially in PVP... though that was pre-PVP revamp, too.

bleah.  

 

I always forget PVP exists in this game.  

[0th Power]

I know it was tf with the big stun, because I could put bosses out of commission with my blaster back before blasters had defense. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by 0th Power
Words

[Golden Azrael]

21 hours ago, Voltor said:

Just revert the issue 13 changes to Energy Transfer,  also I believe once upon a time EM had mag 3 stun in its attacks and it was nerfed to mag 2.

 

Revert Energy Transfer back to what it was, and increase the stun mag to 3

Mag 3 stun...in all attacks?  Or just the big whopper En' Transfer or the Total Focus?

 

A pre-nerf damage boost?  

 

What are the numbers of nerf and pre-nerf?

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

12 hours ago, 0th Power said:

I know it was tf with the big stun, because I could put bosses out of commission with my blaster back before blasters had defense. 

I remember using TF on my en/en blaster to make a boss see tweetie pie.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

13 hours ago, Troo said:

I think but can't confirm it was Total Focus with the big stun (between ET and TF)

I had TF on my En/EN blaster.  I do recall putting the smack down on them.  Stars in their eyes.  A lot of fun to use.  And handy for glass cannon blappers like Blasters.

 

Demon bosses with their head to one side as they look like they just got hit by a truck.

 

Stuns.  Funny things.  You can 'arrest' stuff that fast these days...why bother?  If you can have stuns that can 'do' a boss in one...that makes more sense to me.  Otherwise, any squishy could be dead by the time they apply the stun a 'second' time.

 

Azrael.

[Super Atom]

Spoon handle.

 

EM needs 2 of the three things this topic suggests it doesn't, Luckily, both are solved by one simple thing that's already in game and attached to an Energy set already. Energy Focus. That's the solution, It's already there and proven successful to better a set that needed help.

 

Energy focus keeps the EM identity by using ST attacks to proc a mechanic to increase your singular AoE. You're still king of the ST while improving your ability to kill non-bosses quicker, solving the biggest complaint about EM other than the animation for ET. If you truly wanted it to go further, you could have Energy Focus make it so ET is an instant attack using up the EF, making EF procs situational and giving you the choice of improving your ST or your AoE. For you stun lovers, you could also include EF proc to increase your mag stun on the ability stun, giving it 3 choices per EF proc on which situational power you feel you need. (or alternatively, just EF increases stun mag across board on whatever ability you use)

 

I saw earlier someone mentioned mechanics deciding your rotation for you. Luckily, EF solved that by making all non-effected powers capable of triggering EF  so even if you like a specific opener, you can still do so to your hearts content. With multiple selections to use EF on, you also gain freedom to use effected powers without missing out on the benefit of EF. So fire away with whatever you'd like and you'll still benefit from it.

 

At least thats my take on this whole EM discussion across all topics/discord.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Super Atom

[Troo]

6 hours ago, Super Atom said:

At least thats my take on this whole EM discussion across all topics/discord.

Thanks for putting your thoughts out there and I do appreciate what you are saying even if I and others vehemently disagree.

 

Just so we understand each other, I have pretty extensive experience playing Energy Melee (years on live). Others who have commented are likely to have similar experience.

 

Now imagine if we said your existing preference should be completely reworked resulting in Energy Focus being removed. That wouldn't be the same power set, would it?

That's what you are suggesting for Energy Melee.

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Troo

[Super Atom]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

Thanks for putting your thoughts out there and I do appreciate what you are saying even if I and others vehemently disagree.

 

Just so we understand each other, I have pretty extensive experience playing Energy Melee (years on live). Others who have commented are likely to have similar experience.

You know i tried to edit that part out after re-reading it and going "Well thats just rude and not helpful" but i guess i wasn't quite fast enough, apologies for the rude part of that.

 

 

[Super Atom]

41 minutes ago, Troo said:

Now imagine if we said your existing preference should be completely reworked resulting in Energy Focus being removed. That wouldn't be the same power set, would it?

That's what you are suggesting for Energy Melee.

 

Nobody is suggesting your preference be completely reworked. Adding a mechanic that has already improved energy assault without changing its core functions has already happened. Energy Assault feels exactly the same except its able to keep up. Doing the same for EM wouldn't take away anything from its current line up, only add to its resourcefulness. I'd love to hear exactly how adding that mechanic would actually harm the set for you, as i mentioned before it wouldn't even hurt your ability to choose a rotation.

 

On a side note, It's pretty weird how different the conversation has gone in the discord compared to the forums. The poor devs have very loud outspoken opinions on the complete opposite end of the pool.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Super Atom

[nihilii]

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Energy Assault feels exactly the same except its able to keep up.

I beg to differ on that one. For me, Energy Assault now feels like a set you have to micromanage in a specific manner in order to get best results.

 

It doesn't help that Energy Focus is somewhat bugged and has odd quirks like the hidden timer on how often it can happen. But for the sake of this argument, even if Energy Focus was fixed, it would remain different.

Same difference as between a scrapper and a stalker. One gets to hit, hit, hit, and always has the same reliable performance. The other is more conditional. In damage, most stalker primaries outperform most scrapper primaries nowadays, provided the scrapper isn't /bio. Performance isn't an issue. Playstyle is.

 

It's one of these things you cannot understand if you don't mind the playstyle change or if it happens to fit within your own desired playstyle. But there's a very distinctive difference of feel for some people here. No need to shackle Energy Focus on EM when 1) Energy Assault exists for people who like that 2) very simple number tweaks can fix EM.

Energy Focus would fix EM for a subset of the playerbase and involve a level X of development/testing effort, plain number tweaks would fix EM for the whole playerbase and require a level <X of dev/test. This makes the latter solution clearly superior to me.

[Super Atom]

31 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I beg to differ on that one. For me, Energy Assault now feels like a set you have to micromanage in a specific manner in order to get best results.

 

It doesn't help that Energy Focus is somewhat bugged and has odd quirks like the hidden timer on how often it can happen. But for the sake of this argument, even if Energy Focus was fixed, it would remain different.

Same difference as between a scrapper and a stalker. One gets to hit, hit, hit, and always has the same reliable performance. The other is more conditional. In damage, most stalker primaries outperform most scrapper primaries nowadays, provided the scrapper isn't /bio. Performance isn't an issue. Playstyle is.

 

It's one of these things you cannot understand if you don't mind the playstyle change or if it happens to fit within your own desired playstyle. But there's a very distinctive difference of feel for some people here. No need to shackle Energy Focus on EM when 1) Energy Assault exists for people who like that 2) very simple number tweaks can fix EM.

Energy Focus would fix EM for a subset of the playerbase and involve a level X of development/testing effort, plain number tweaks would fix EM for the whole playerbase and require a level <X of dev/test. This makes the latter solution clearly superior to me.

I don't disagree with you that the alternative route is also fine. However, I think both routes is gonna take a lot of testing. I can see how the added need could change it for some people though, when you word it like that. You make a pretty good point. It's entirely possible EF could over complicate the set if the solution is as easy as just raising damage on a couple powers. The problem with reverting ET, raising the damage on whirling hands is its possible the set could over-preform and will require very delicate balancing to prevent over-preforming. I'm okay with both options, though my preference would be something a little more exciting like the newer sets.

 

EM for scrappers i think is a pretty agreed upon topic at least. 🙂

Edited September 17, 2020 by Super Atom

[Troo]

A primary difference between Energy Melee and Energy Assault is Energy Transfer and Ranged attacks. (Dominators can access ET in the epic power pool)

 

I get that people who like and play Energy Assault would like to propagate it to other archetypes.

Folks who play or played Energy Melee feel the same way.

Co-oping another power set is a nasty way to get one's preference onto other ATs. 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Troo

[aethereal]

I dearly, dearly hope that Page 6 is way past the point where they're still looking for fundamental philosophical approaches about how to change Energy Melee.

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

A primary difference between Energy Melee and Energy Assault is Energy Transfer and Ranged attacks. (Dominators can access ET in the epic power pool)

 

I get that people who like and play Energy Assault would like to propagate it to other archetypes.

Folks who play or played Energy Melee feel the same way.

Co-oping another power set is a nasty way to get one's preference onto other ATs. 

 

It's still the same family and also wasn't a live change, It's a HC change. So I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen. I also still don't really agree with you that it would be bad for EM since the overall gimmick is at its core just a damage increase. A lot of this seems to be general fear mongering of change without ever giving it a chance to be tested or even discussed, which to me is more dangerous for this game in the long run than anything else. Theres a lot of things that are relics of a City of Heroes that is long gone and could use an update to fit the current state of the game. That doesn't mean removing identity or changing the sets beyond recognition, it just means updating lack luster things to  include the modern mechanics of the game (Absorb for example). Which is something that would have happened had the coh devs had more time. See t9 overhauls for a prime example of updating sets that never got to happen.

 

A prime example of this is also Blasters. Blasters are in a much better place because of Nuke/Snipe/Sustain changes. Most of the sets got a completely new power to support their update to the entire AT and the class is objectively better for it. Change isn't always bad.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Super Atom

[Troo]

sigh..

[Super Atom]

26 minutes ago, Troo said:

sigh..

and like that the conversation is over. This is pretty rude and dismissive and a sign that its time to move on.

[Troo]

Sorry, my intention is not to be rude.

We're just talking in circles and I don't want to argue with you. You always seem nice. (I'm also at work)

 

It does seem, repeating the same thing over and over, it isn't going to get you to look at it from the other perspective.

 

Maybe It boils down to a 1 second Energy Transfer -vs- a 2.6 second Energy Transfer with a new gimmick and other stuff.

 

If you are proposing Energy Transfer as is with the 1 second animation plus other stuff.. honestly, you could do what ever else you wanted.

But I don't think that is what you are proposing.

 

Revert the Energy Transfer nerf. Simple and quick (this gets us back to the 1 second ET)

 

 

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, Troo said:

Sorry, my intention is not to be rude.

We're just talking in circles and I don't want to argue with you. You always seem nice. (I'm also at work)

 

It does seem, repeating the same thing over and over, it isn't going to get you to look at it from the other perspective.

 

Maybe It boils down to a 1 second Energy Transfer -vs- a 2.6 second Energy Transfer with a new gimmick and other stuff.

 

If you are proposing Energy Transfer as is with the 1 second animation plus other stuff.. honestly, you could do what ever else you wanted.

But I don't think that is what you are proposing.

 

Revert the Energy Transfer nerf. Simple and quick (this gets us back to the 1 second ET)

 

 

I do see it from your side, I'm sorry if im not conveying that. Though i do agree, our opinions on how to update the set are likely to remain different. I just hope you're able to see where I and many people are coming from on the EF bandwagon side of this.

 

My suggestion would keep the current animation time, unless you have an Energy Focus proc which would revert it to a quicker version. All EF would do is just change specific powers for a 1 time use until it procs again doing either a faster ET, more damage for whirling, or a cone stun. Not all at the same time or in rapid succession mostly as a way to keep the set as is but also fix some of the common complaints. Like i said above though, I could see how some people could view it as limiting and would just prefer a revert / damage increase instead of needing to pay attention to a new mechanic.

 

Whatever they choose to do though, I am willing and open to testing and discussing how it has changed the set either for the best or worst and go from there.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Super Atom

[0th Power]

I would feel exactly the same way about Energy melee as I do now if it was a conditional (on stored energy) 1 second animation for transfer.  

[Golden Azrael]

On 9/17/2020 at 8:18 AM, Super Atom said:

Nobody is suggesting your preference be completely reworked. Adding a mechanic that has already improved energy assault without changing its core functions has already happened. Energy Assault feels exactly the same except its able to keep up. Doing the same for EM wouldn't take away anything from its current line up, only add to its resourcefulness. I'd love to hear exactly how adding that mechanic would actually harm the set for you, as i mentioned before it wouldn't even hurt your ability to choose a rotation.

 

On a side note, It's pretty weird how different the conversation has gone in the discord compared to the forums. The poor devs have very loud outspoken opinions on the complete opposite end of the pool.

Oh yes?  What did the devs say?

 

I really like the Energy mechanic on Energy Assault and think it's something that could easily be tested on a HC Beta server.  And see how the Tank actually plays with it.

 

It's a good avenue to increase damage with a proven mechanic.  Your attacks store energy (makes sense...you're a master of energy...) and you can build energy on all attacks and spend it.  Quite simple.  And maybe when you spend it you cause splash disorient...with increased chances to disorient eg. from 30 on Whirling Hands to 60%...or when you hit with EN or TF with 'spend it' you cause a mag 3 stun.  No questions.

 

So when you really spend a Total Focus or Energy Transfer they're really going to hit like trucks.  It gives Energy something unique as Super Strength has eg. Rage.

 

It would add a bit of interest to the plain Jane plodding Energy Melee set.  The live devs were heading in the direction of adding combat mechanics to sets to add a bit more interest to the game play for the newer sets.  So giving the traditional sets like Energy, Ice and Stone Hammer a mechanic pass with increased 'burst' or 'spike' damage is mighty fine by me.

 

Just reverting one power and going pre-nerf on the damage isn't enough for me.  It's regressive and stale.  Better to move forward with something more interesting.

 

I don't see 2.6 seconds as yawning chasm.  But some might.  I do remember the pre-nerf...ET.  It was quick.  I like the idea of 'conditional' to include both.  As I do like both.

 

Azrael.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Golden Azrael