Energy Melee - Does not need

[Golden Azrael]

15 hours ago, Super Atom said:

I do see it from your side, I'm sorry if im not conveying that. Though i do agree, our opinions on how to update the set are likely to remain different. I just hope you're able to see where I and many people are coming from on the EF bandwagon side of this.

 

My suggestion would keep the current animation time, unless you have an Energy Focus proc which would revert it to a quicker version. All EF would do is just change specific powers for a 1 time use until it procs again doing either a faster ET, more damage for whirling, or a cone stun. Not all at the same time or in rapid succession mostly as a way to keep the set as is but also fix some of the common complaints. Like i said above though, I could see how some people could view it as limiting and would just prefer a revert / damage increase instead of needing to pay attention to a new mechanic.

 

Whatever they choose to do though, I am willing and open to testing and discussing how it has changed the set either for the best or worst and go from there.

I like your idea about using the 'quicker' animation if you 'spend it' on Energy mechanic.

 

That way those that like the longer version keep it.  The mechanic gives access to the original shorter animation on ET.  

 

And yes.  Energy Proc.  Why not.

 

Adding a bit of variety to the set wouldn't go amiss.  Both 'pre nerf' and 'progressives' would each get what they wanted.

 

I'm greedy.  I want both.  Pre-nerf and the newer combat mechanic.  

 

I like your ideas how to hybridise to include both.  Creative thinking, that.

 

Azrael.

[0th Power]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

Adding a bit of variety to the set wouldn't go amiss.  Both 'pre nerf' and 'progressives' would each get what they wanted.

If the animation is conditional, we are not getting what we want.

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, 0th Power said:

If the animation is conditional, we are not getting what we want.

You wouldn't be getting what you want. But i hope you'd at least be open to trying it out without going in with a bias to instantly dislike it. Even if we don't get something like EF, as long as EM gets attention and the set feels better to play I'm happy with whatever they try.

 

Quote

Oh yes?  What did the devs say?

Nothing. The weekly discussion on the discord was heavily in favor of a new mechanic to solve the issues, adding something other than 1-4 combat and addressing concerns at the same time. It's a larger discussion in real time you should come by and get involved! not that the forums aren't also an excellent place to voice opinions/give feedback.

 

I feel I've said what i could, I won't be around to respond to stuff for awhile so i leave with the final thought of scrapper EM please. please?

 

 

[siolfir]

6 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

The live devs were heading in the direction of adding combat mechanics to sets to add a bit more interest to the game play for the newer sets.

A decision I despised then, as well. At least Street Justice didn't require as much micromanaging as Dual Blades, but both tried to dictate what order you activated powers to get the best performance out of an unrelated power. Why can't a set have powers that all work well on their own merits? I don't find that idea stale or regressive nearly as much as I find the "add a gimmick to it!" attitude repetitive and bland.

[aethereal]

53 minutes ago, siolfir said:

A decision I despised then, as well. At least Street Justice didn't require as much micromanaging as Dual Blades, but both tried to dictate what order you activated powers to get the best performance out of an unrelated power. Why can't a set have powers that all work well on their own merits? I don't find that idea stale or regressive nearly as much as I find the "add a gimmick to it!" attitude repetitive and bland.

Because when you have a totally permissive set, you quickly end up going 1, 2, 3, 1, 4 repeat for a lot of gameplay.

 

Having something that adds some tension to your decisions of what power to cast next, where you MIGHT want to press 2 but also you MIGHT want to press 3 is more engaging.  Now, I'd argue that in general CoH has had difficulty actualizing that idea, but it's a good idea at base.  Classes like defender/controller/corruptor/dom have some of that anyway because their powers are much more diverse than the melee sets, so there's just generally more of, "Should I fire off this mez or this debuff or this heal" going on in combat, but classes that mostly have a choice between "damage, more damage, and aoe damage" have a harder time staying interesting.

 

[0th Power]

11 hours ago, Super Atom said:

You wouldn't be getting what you want. But i hope you'd at least be open to trying it out without going in with a bias to instantly dislike it. Even if we don't get something like EF, as long as EM gets attention and the set feels better to play I'm happy with whatever they try.

In a vacuum, I would give it a fair shake.  My problem in practice is the fact that you can’t unring a bell.  If it is changed to a gimmick mechanic it would really hard to change back, especially if ~50% of the people like it. 
 

If it were me, I would start with reverting the ET animation.  If after testing, it needs adjusting, then we could talk about more changes including stored energy.  
 

My analogy that I thought of while typing this:

If a lightbulb goes out, let’s change the lightbulb.  I don’t want to start with rewiring the house. 

[Troo]

19 hours ago, Super Atom said:

The weekly discussion on the discord was heavily in favor of a new mechanic

This is troubling.

[Haijinx]

50 minutes ago, Troo said:

This is troubling.

I don't know they could add a similar mechanic to whirling hands perhaps to get some AOE performance.

 

Like street justice you can use your stacks on ST or AOE

[Lines]

Have you given the Dominator set a proper go, Troo? The energy release mechanic isn't particularly intrusive. It's not like Dual Blades and is mild even compared with Street Justice.

[Galaxy Brain]

>Troubling

>Street Justice is Finnicky

 

Ok, I'm not gonna sugar coat it. The "combo mechanics" and gimmicks seen in CoH are incredibly, incredibly simple compared to most anything comparable both today as well as since like 2010. 

 

Street Justice in particular is literally "play normally, but save one of these powers for later! Or don't, theyre still good without building them up". Its not like it is actually forcing you to do a quarter circle back - forward - punch input to do one of the moves, just land any 3 attacks > use your big attack which is the style of most every other powerset in a nutshell. Most every "gimmick" set not only can have its gimmick be glossed over as they happen to be rather passive (tw, psy, staff) but also simply work well even of you do not 100% optimize said gimmick, youre not being punished for not doing so.

 

The exception to this is Dual Blades tho, which with its branching combo trees becomes rather complex... and ironically the best use of it is to ignore them lol.

 

We have a plethora of sets that are just "push buttons wee" with no pizazz. If Energy Melee was just made "better" itd still be just another damage set without much to stand out. Even Energy Transfer isn't too special in a world with Crushing Uppercut, Greater Psy Blade, and modern Stalkers all dealing amazing ST damage while also providing other utilities and AoE coverage.

 

If EM wants to be relevant, it needs more than just "polish".

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

This is troubling.

Let me ask you this, as a fellow EM purist and practitioner.

 

If EM had to rely on a mechanic to yield old school EM results and had similar if not better feel of play, would you like it or blow it off?

 

Things do change, sometimes not for the better as was with the nerfapocalypse on EM back in the day.

 

But gameplay has changed since then also, and lots of the dynamic that was from that pre nerf era is gone anyway.  I'm not saying a mechanic is right or wrong here, only that I can see how a mechanic and new features could make the set as a whole more competitive than it ever was even pre nerf.

 

Would you be opposed to such performance improvements if it recaptures the old feel also if it has to deliver such results through a mechanic?

[siolfir]

17 hours ago, aethereal said:

Because when you have a totally permissive set, you quickly end up going 1, 2, 3, 1, 4 repeat for a lot of gameplay.

Which is exactly what happens when you have a Dual Blades or Street Justice style combo system as well, you just change which powers 1, 2, 3, and 4 are to "builders" and "consumers" or whatever your optimal combo chain happens to be. For Stalkers, Assassin's Focus is this exact mechanic (build Focus, use Assassin's Strike for a guaranteed double-damage hit), and the biggest change to Stalker playstyle was actually including Assassin's Strike in an attack chain (the ATOs, on the other hand, made you think about when you were going to use Build Up and whether it was worthwhile to switch your chain for a different attack after the proc drops you back into hidden status - most of the time the answer is "no" because you make that your normal chain, anyway).

 

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Street Justice in particular is literally "play normally, but save one of these powers for later! Or don't, theyre still good without building them up".

The combo system in Street Justice forces you to either skip using your best DPA attack - which contains a control - to lead a fight, so that it can begin recharging more quickly and allow you to use it again sooner, or to use it at minimal effect - a minimal effect that fails to meet the design criteria for the power's recharge (25 seconds should be scale 4.36, it does scale 3.18 which should be 17.625 seconds).

 

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

We have a plethora of sets that are just "push buttons wee" with no pizazz.

And you know what? Some people like that.

 

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Would you be opposed to such performance improvements if it recaptures the old feel also if it has to deliver such results through a mechanic?

Yes. I can already play a Stalker.

[Infinitum]

Just now, siolfir said:

Yes. I can already play a Stalker.

Now if it adds greater functionality and nostalgic performance to stalkers also and all the melee ATs would it be worth it to you?

 

Or do you just blow it off as a gimmick?

[Galaxy Brain]

11 minutes ago, siolfir said:

The combo system in Street Justice forces you to either skip using your best DPA attack - which contains a control - to lead a fight, so that it can begin recharging more quickly and allow you to use it again sooner, or to use it at minimal effect - a minimal effect that fails to meet the design criteria for the power's recharge (25 seconds should be scale 4.36, it does scale 3.18 which should be 17.625 seconds).

Then use the build up first, or initial strike/rib cracker for 1 meter and let it rip. Its still friggen good at base / lvl 1. You are not being punished for not playing a certain way, its just more optimal to do it a certain way.

 

12 minutes ago, siolfir said:

And you know what? Some people like that.

A lot of people like stuff with more to chew on. There are plenty of sets that are just button mashing already. EM was always a specialist set and making it a specialized set would keep to that theme.

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Now if it adds greater functionality and nostalgic performance to stalkers also and all the melee ATs would it be worth it to you?

 

Or do you just blow it off as a gimmick?

I've played several "gimmick" sets already. Mostly it depends on the nature of the gimmick, but slow/fast/slow animations based on the gimmick is a quick no-go for me: you'll note that this exact situation is exactly why everyone recommends dropping the chance for hide proc in Assassin's Strike, so that it doesn't go into "slow mode" on you when the proc triggers on a different attack. And if people just want high performance with variable speed animations, well, Titan Weapons is sitting right there already with the only compromise being those variable speed animations. It would have to have a similar level of performance as current TW across the spectrum for me to even consider it, and then I'd still probably drop it like I did the TW Scrapper I tried on test (to see if I could deal with the set) when the inconsistent feel drove me nuts.

 

The biggest issue I have is the concept that every set has to have a gimmick and that "push buttons wee" is a bad thing. Why not have sets that have unconditional high performance in at least one area, while having middling-to-poor performance in others? Isn't that also variety?

 

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

A lot of people like stuff with more to chew on. There are plenty of sets that are just button mashing already. EM was always a specialist set and making it a specialized set would keep to that theme.

It can be a specialized set without any gimmicks. It just doesn't do its specialty as well as it used to.

[Galaxy Brain]

19 minutes ago, siolfir said:

I've played several "gimmick" sets already. Mostly it depends on the nature of the gimmick, but slow/fast/slow animations based on the gimmick is a quick no-go for me

Which gimmick sets have you played?

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

I've played several "gimmick" sets already. Mostly it depends on the nature of the gimmick, but slow/fast/slow animations based on the gimmick is a quick no-go for me: you'll note that this exact situation is exactly why everyone recommends dropping the chance for hide proc in Assassin's Strike, so that it doesn't go into "slow mode" on you when the proc triggers on a different attack. And if people just want high performance with variable speed animations, well, Titan Weapons is sitting right there already with the only compromise being those variable speed animations. It would have to have a similar level of performance as current TW across the spectrum for me to even consider it, and then I'd still probably drop it like I did the TW Scrapper I tried on test (to see if I could deal with the set) when the inconsistent feel drove me nuts.

 

The biggest issue I have is the concept that every set has to have a gimmick and that "push buttons wee" is a bad thing. Why not have sets that have unconditional high performance in at least one area, while having middling-to-poor performance in others? Isn't that also variety?

 

It can be a specialized set without any gimmicks. It just doesn't do its specialty as well as it used to.

Not a fair comparison to compare it to TW as TW is now.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Let me ask you this, as a fellow EM purist and practitioner.

 

If EM had to rely on a mechanic to yield old school EM results and had similar if not better feel of play, would you like it or blow it off?

 

Things do change, sometimes not for the better as was with the nerfapocalypse on EM back in the day.

 

But gameplay has changed since then also, and lots of the dynamic that was from that pre nerf era is gone anyway.  I'm not saying a mechanic is right or wrong here, only that I can see how a mechanic and new features could make the set as a whole more competitive than it ever was even pre nerf.

 

Would you be opposed to such performance improvements if it recaptures the old feel also if it has to deliver such results through a mechanic?

If it is a part time effect, no thanks.

 

Taking a rather simple set and complicating it won't be well received. (not just me)

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

The biggest issue I have is the concept that every set has to have a gimmick and that "push buttons wee" is a bad thing. Why not have sets that have unconditional high performance in at least one area, while having middling-to-poor performance in others? Isn't that also variety?

What if you could have it all?  And a mechanic delivers it?   Would you really kick that out of bed?

[Troo]

IF Energy Transfer was reverted full time.. there is then a lot of options.

 

Folks shouldn't have to trade one for the other. Make a new power set if that's what is being pushed.

 

Serious questions:

Is there anything more important to do rather than revamping Energy Melee?

Why wouldn't we push for the simple for now and get some more pressing items addressed?

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Troo

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

If it is a part time effect, no thanks.

 

Taking a rather simple set and complicating it won't be well received. (not just me)

Even if any mechanic and corresponding buffs made EM the ST king again?

 

There are better AOEs now than EMs pre nerf ST output.

 

So there has to be an equalizer to deliver EM where you want it, and just reverting it wont accomplish that I dont think.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Troo said:

Folks shouldn't have to trade one for the other. Make a new power set if that's what is being pushed.

Or transform EM into both what it was and something greater in every aspect.

[Troo]

An Energy Melee purist would not put AOE over reverting Energy Transfer..

 

Not everyone teams, not everyone is playing +4/8.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

An Energy Melee purist would not put AOE over reverting Energy Transfer..

 

Not everyone teams, not everyone is playing +4/8.

What does the level have to do with anything?  

 

I was still referring to ST output just increased also btw.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Infinitum

[Troo]

What does increasing aoe instead of reverting Energy Transfer have to do with anything? Make everything the same?