Illusion Control for Dominators

[Zeraphia]

It's been mentioned several times, but I think it is worth repeating and asking for again. 

 

Does Illusion Control fit the Dominator mold? Not necessarily, it offers a unique and vastly different playstyle that isn't totally dependent upon Domination. That's not a bad thing, not every set is supposed to feel like a very similar copy to one another, and that's great that it will offer more variety!

 

Would it be underpowered? No, while only 3 (maybe 4 not sure how Spectral Terror would work) of the 9 powers gain a benefit from Domination, the argument is still there to say that those 3/9 powers would be excellent under domination. Further, PA works exceptionally well as an aggro tool for AV's outside of Domination, making it not so critical to need Domination in the first place. 

 

Why would you want it? It's the flavor and thought of having PA and being able to attack, and for others it may introduce some really interesting character concepts. Really, to me, the thought of Illusion Control really does sound quite Dominator-y more than it really does Controller-y. Currently, if you want the "true concept" of a Carnie, you cannot achieve this because there is no way to really take Psionic damage (or theme) with Controllers besides an Epic pool or a not-so-thematic secondary pool (Dark Miasma). 

 

Would it be overpowered? In this state of the game, no. We have TW/Bio and Kat/Bio Scrappers already ruining GM/AV lives, introducing a competitive Dominator primary that's quite fun and interesting would be a welcomed sight, I think. Many other ATs and combinations are doing this same exact thing already, I don't see how being a specialist for GM/AV makes it "broken" especially on teams where the damage and debuffs are all there. Illusion Control's damage is really going to do more for a Controller than it really will for a Dominator who has an entire secondary devoted to damage, further the set will trade some AoE control for the excellent hard-target control. 

 

I don't necessarily want "additional" powers to "make it better on Dominators so they can use Domination" but I definitely would not mind a replacement for Spectral Wounds, given that Dominators appropriately already have damage from their secondary, this would feel superfluous, replacing this with a great type of control that would benefit from Domination would be ideal.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Zeraphia

[aethereal]

Yeah, I've never really bought the whole argument that Doms can't have Illusion Control because it doesn't benefit enough from Domination.  I mean, that'd be fine if Illusion weren't the basis for some obviously extremely powerful characters.  And if it didn't strongly benefit from high global recharge, just like Domination.  Does Illusion Control, of all control sets, really need to synergize super, super well with Domination in order to be good?

[ArchVileTerror]

I seem to recall one of the Homecoming Team Devs stating that they would likely add a version of Illusion to Dominators after tweaking a few things, and changing out Phantom Army for a different kind of Pet Summon Power.  Instead of being Damage-dealers, the Dominator Pets would be Stunner.

 

Something like that, anyway.

[Snowdaze]

You had me up until:

44 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I don't necessarily want "additional" powers to "make it better on Dominators so they can use Domination" but I definitely would not mind a replacement for Spectral Wounds, given that Dominators appropriately already have damage from their secondary, this would feel superfluous, replacing this with a great T9 AoE control (like an AoE confuse) would be excellent! But I'm afraid, by asking for this, it may be too good, so I am refraining on asking for that, but I think a direct port over would be absolutely fine and 100% viable. 

To be honest they could just add an Immobilize effect to spectral wounds and it pretty much falls in line with every other T1. Asking for a new T9 is a big ask!

[Zeraphia]

10 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

You had me up until:

To be honest they could just add an Immobilize effect to spectral wounds and it pretty much falls in line with every other T1. Asking for a new T9 is a big ask!

As I said, not married to really the idea itself, but yea! I'd take this too, it just seems to lack some sort of AoE control for Doms to really utilize, and this was done on Thunderspy, but yea I totally get it if people think it's overpowered. Just saw that as a common thought about it. 

[Zepp]

I don't think it would be overpowered for Dom, nor do I think that there is an explicit need for PA to be removed. I think PA should have its recharge reduced to 180s on both Troller & Dom versions...

I mean a stun-bot would be fine too, but it's not really a necessary change.

[golstat2003]

9 hours ago, Zepp said:

I don't think it would be overpowered for Dom, nor do I think that there is an explicit need for PA to be removed. I think PA should have its recharge reduced to 180s on both Troller & Dom versions...

I mean a stun-bot would be fine too, but it's not really a necessary change.

I'd rather have PA stay when ported to Doms. Especially after the change they just made to make is so that the PAs can look like you, I'd call it a set defining power.

[Alchemystic]

The consensus was that Phantom Army would have to do mez instead of damage.

[ArchVileTerror]

The idea, as I understand it, was still to have the summon three invulnerable phantoms/duplicates.  It's just that they'd be different in that they wouldn't be the primary source of damage for the Dominator, and instead provide pure Control.

[Zepp]

30 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

The consensus was that Phantom Army would have to do mez instead of damage.

Which consensus, and (more importantly) what is the argument behind an increased investment to change a power in a way that moves Illusion control from a set that works through threat level manipulation to a more traditional type of control set.

20 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

The idea, as I understand it, was still to have the summon three invulnerable phantoms/duplicates.  It's just that they'd be different in that they wouldn't be the primary source of damage for the Dominator, and instead provide pure Control.

I understand that, but their threat generation would need to be increased significant to account for the reduced damage-related threat generation.

[Zepp]

Based on where a previous thread was headed. I would suggest:

On 1/9/2020 at 12:27 PM, Zepp said:

1.67s animation ranged (Psi damage, taunt)

1.00s animation ranged (Psi damage, taunt)

1.00s animation melee (Psi damage, taunt)

 

Animation linked to secondary in clone mode...

So, basically, the PA would have a default animation for their attacks. They would then have alternate animations that were used when you use the clone version. These animations would be based on your secondary.
It is possible that some changes would be made to adjust PA base damage/+regen to enemies/time before +regen to enemies in order to balance it - as deemed fit. The taunt may be increased to maintain PA aggro generation levels if damage were to be reduced.
Alternatively, the melee attack could be replaced by a 1.00s animation ranged taunt.

I would also suggest that PA & Phantasm have their recharge time reduced to 180s and Flash have its recharge time reduced to 90s (along with the AoE Hold powers in all control sets) while Flash would also have its animation time reduced to ~2s.

 

[golstat2003]

12 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

The consensus was that Phantom Army would have to do mez instead of damage.

I'd be fine with this.

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, Zepp said:

Based on where a previous thread was headed. I would suggest:

So, basically, the PA would have a default animation for their attacks. They would then have alternate animations that were used when you use the clone version. These animations would be based on your secondary.
It is possible that some changes would be made to adjust PA base damage/+regen to enemies/time before +regen to enemies in order to balance it - as deemed fit. The taunt may be increased to maintain PA aggro generation levels if damage were to be reduced.
Alternatively, the melee attack could be replaced by a 1.00s animation ranged taunt.

I would also suggest that PA & Phantasm have their recharge time reduced to 180s and Flash have its recharge time reduced to 90s (along with the AoE Hold powers in all control sets) while Flash would also have its animation time reduced to ~2s.

 

I'd also be fine with this. LOL

[Zeraphia]

12 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

The idea, as I understand it, was still to have the summon three invulnerable phantoms/duplicates.  It's just that they'd be different in that they wouldn't be the primary source of damage for the Dominator, and instead provide pure Control.

I don't know, I'm not shutting the idea down, but I would say that unless they were coded to accept Domination (I doubt this would happen because they're pets) I wouldn't find it really necessary. Having 3 aggroing undefeatable Tankers is a lot of damage mitigation and control for groups as-is, I don't necessary think adding controls to them is going to do a ton more, so I'd sort of rather they just did damage at that point. But, I'm not against it.

[GopherCuresSelf12]

I'd love an almost direct port for Dominators. Maybe change Spectral Wound to a single target immob.

 

If you think about it, even controllers don't get that much leverage from their inherent (overpower/containment). The only "synergy" is through support sets providing debuffs (to help PA damage) and/or recharge buffs. Something like Illusion/Empathy does not even make use of this synergy.

[...]

Yes. 

 

Just port as is.

 

No change required. 

[Greycat]

Bleh. Illusion.

 

You'd need to dump one of the invisibilities for something that would help with dom. Maybe combine them into a PBAOE stealth toggle.

And yes, PA would need to be changed. Probably reducing the number of summons or making them able to be killed - essentially a non targeted Haunt.

The rest.. eh. Works. I can see the argument for changing Spectral Wounds to an immob - Spectral Cage, maybe.

 

Possibly split some things into a themed "spectral" assault group, but that'd be even more work.

 

[Alchemystic]

On 5/20/2020 at 3:08 AM, Zepp said:

Which consensus, and (more importantly) what is the argument behind an increased investment to change a power in a way that moves Illusion control from a set that works through threat level manipulation to a more traditional type of control set.

1) Illusion needed more Mez to properly benefit from Domination
2) Phantom Army provided too much damage output when paired with an Assault powerset
3) People didn't want Phantom Army to be removed, but were open to the idea of it being changed.

 

So changing Phantom Army to deliver Mez effects instead of damage appeared to be the most viable solution.

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Zepp]

6 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

1) Illusion needed more Mez to properly benefit from Domination
2) Phantom Army provided too much damage output when paired with an Assault powerset
3) People didn't want Phantom Army to be removed, but were open to the idea of it being changed.

 

So changing Phantom Army to deliver Mez effects instead of damage appeared to be the most viable solution.

While those opinions were brought up, they are far from consensus.

1. Domination increases ToHit, which does not require "controls". Domination also does not require controls to build. Sure, Illusion would benefit less from Domination than other primaries, but that is fine.
2. Phantom Army does provide some damage output, however it is single-target and chaotic by nature, meaning a lot of their damage is healed back. Also, shifting the taunt/damage balance would allow them to be largely the same while being balanced.
3. This opinion is likely the only of your three with plurality of support (although it wasn't consensus either). That being said, I am with the majority that PA needs to stay.

To make your statements more accurate:

1. Illusion would benefit more from Domination with PA converted to Mez.
2. Illusion Doms would be on the DpS end of the spectrum compared to other Doms.
3. There is a plurality of support for keeping PA if Ill is ported.

While shifting PA to make them mezbots is a feasible solution, it is far from the only or best solution. It would shift the style of Illusion Control from an aggro-management set to a more standard control set. This would make Illusion Control feel less like Illusion Control and actually be harder to balance (making PA mezzes effective, but not overpowering? Just thinking of a perma-PA Dom keeping perma-Stun on GMs...).

Yes, balance needs to be considered, but it also needs to take into consideration the reality that Illusion Control is not a standard control set, and trying to make it that way will remove its charm.

 

 

[Alchemystic]

40 minutes ago, Zepp said:

hifting PA to make them mezbots is a feasible solution, it is far from the only or best solution. It would shift the style of Illusion Control from an aggro-management set to a more standard control set. This would make Illusion Control feel less like Illusion Control and actually be harder to balance (making PA mezzes effective, but not overpowering? Just thinking of a perma-PA Dom keeping perma-Stun on GMs...).

Yes, balance needs to be considered, but it also needs to take into consideration the reality that Illusion Control is not a standard control set, and trying to make it that way will remove its charm.

 

 

Depends on what consensus you draw from. While there were many vocal about keeping Illusion Control as is, those that wanted to see changes to the powerset agreed that Phantom Army was the key reason it had not yet been ported to Dominators, and it was debated that the 'everybody wins' solution would be keeping the power, but changing its effects to Mez.

As for the Mez effects? well, since the power consists of three pets I would imagine that their Mez magnitude would have to be quite low, anywhere between 1 or 2, otherwise you could as you say perma-stun GMs and the like all on their own.

 

Single target powers like ' Time Stop', ' Screech' and ' Will Domination' seem to be a nice fit for their Mez arsenal, with Mez duration, magnitude and recharge times adjusted accordingly.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Zeraphia]

38 minutes ago, Zepp said:

While those opinions were brought up, they are far from consensus.

1. Domination increases ToHit, which does not require "controls". Domination also does not require controls to build. Sure, Illusion would benefit less from Domination than other primaries, but that is fine.
2. Phantom Army does provide some damage output, however it is single-target and chaotic by nature, meaning a lot of their damage is healed back. Also, shifting the taunt/damage balance would allow them to be largely the same while being balanced.
3. This opinion is likely the only of your three with plurality of support (although it wasn't consensus either). That being said, I am with the majority that PA needs to stay.

To make your statements more accurate:

1. Illusion would benefit more from Domination with PA converted to Mez.
2. Illusion Doms would be on the DpS end of the spectrum compared to other Doms.
3. There is a plurality of support for keeping PA if Ill is ported.

While shifting PA to make them mezbots is a feasible solution, it is far from the only or best solution. It would shift the style of Illusion Control from an aggro-management set to a more standard control set. This would make Illusion Control feel less like Illusion Control and actually be harder to balance (making PA mezzes effective, but not overpowering? Just thinking of a perma-PA Dom keeping perma-Stun on GMs...).

Yes, balance needs to be considered, but it also needs to take into consideration the reality that Illusion Control is not a standard control set, and trying to make it that way will remove its charm.

 

 

Honestly... I WANT the Taunt and regular PA at any cost honestly, I want a straight up port. I get how some may see it as "broken" honestly, is it really anymore? Look at what we have running around? Fire/Cold Corruptors dishing out over -100% resistance, -500% regen debuff, a version of "weaken", ally defense shields, along with fire and dominate's high DPAs, TW/Bio Scrappers, Katana/Bio Scrappers, Nature/Sonic Defenders... I mean really, what is the harm in having a Dominator set being different from others? 

 

Maybe I want the feeling of having 3 uncontrollable versions of myself beating down enemies hilariously and jovially while being able to actually go mob-to-mob with real damage (you can build for procs on controllers, but it's not the same) and have fun with an entirely new theme!

[Alchemystic]

11 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Honestly... I WANT the Taunt and regular PA at any cost honestly, I want a straight up port. I get how some may see it as "broken" honestly, is it really anymore? Look at what we have running around? Fire/Cold Corruptors dishing out over -100% resistance, -500% regen debuff, a version of "weaken", ally defense shields, along with fire and dominate's high DPAs, TW/Bio Scrappers, Katana/Bio Scrappers, Nature/Sonic Defenders... I mean really, what is the harm in having a Dominator set being different from others? 

 

Maybe I want the feeling of having 3 uncontrollable versions of myself beating down enemies hilariously and jovially while being able to actually go mob-to-mob with real damage (you can build for procs on controllers, but it's not the same) and have fun with an entirely new theme!

 

Sadly Illusion Control was identified as a problem powerset during the mass proliferation way back. Even powersets like Kinetics and Radiation Emission were problematic on Masterminds until they tweaked a few things. I imagine it will be the same for Illusion Dominators, something about it is going to have to change in order to maintain the standards of game health Homecoming operates on, and both developers and players agree that Phantom Army is the main reason its yet to be ported.

Unlike other servers, ensuring the game retains a mostly balanced environment is one of the development priorities for Homecoming. Its why many of the radical changes and additions seen on other servers have yet to make their way here, because they're implemented without the same rigorous standards of testing and balancing as seen here.

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Zepp]

@Tyrannical, I think I know which thread you were talking about, but there never seemed to be a consensus, and if there was a plurality it was difficult to determine which side the plurality fell.

Actually, @Captain Powerhouse argued for a non-taunting version of PA - which is the opposite of your "PA does too much damage" argument, and pushes Illusion Control to having even less control (control in the case of Illusion Control of course including Aggro Management).

 

Also, I do not agree that PA is the main reason that PA has not been ported, it is the perception of PA in association with the lack of conceptual understanding of how Illusion Control functions in a balanced manner focused on controlling the battle field without the standard CC formula. Yes, PA does a lot of damage, and a Troller that knows how to manipulate them into focusing on individual enemies is insanely powerful, but PA is not by default an issue. It may require adjustments - I find the argument for shifting them to slightly lower damage and slightly higher taunt to be the most compelling - but there is, unfortunately, no consensus on what needs to be done - which is the reason it is problematic.

[Alchemystic]

1 minute ago, Zepp said:

@Tyrannical, I think I know which thread you were talking about, but there never seemed to be a consensus, and if there was a plurality it was difficult to determine which side the plurality fell.

Actually, @Captain Powerhouse argued for a non-taunting version of PA - which is the opposite of your "PA does too much damage" argument, and pushes Illusion Control to having even less control (control in the case of Illusion Control of course including Aggro Management).

 

It was less of an argument and more of an early concept he offered up as context, you might want to mention that next time.

[Zepp]

4 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

It was less of an argument and more of an early concept he offered up as context, you might want to mention that next time.

For reference:

On 1/9/2020 at 1:51 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Controllers dont have offensive secondaries, so this would never work for them, but my idea is to make Dom PA use modified versions of the first 2 powers the dominator has. If it's a Ill/Fire dom, the Decoy would have Flares, Incinerate and maybe also Bind. Their powers would not taunt, though. It would go very nicely on hand with the new mirror theme for Decoys.

To be very specific, it was an individual opinion about the path that person felt PA should follow (aka argument). It was not an "early concept" as that terminology implies that it was related to actual game development work rather than an individual offering a personal opinion.

 

I am very clear and specific with my language, and if I am wrong I will admit it. However, please refrain from implying that I am twisting or manipulating words.