Regeneration Issues

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, Dragotect said:

FYI, your argument was to leave it the "F alone" and to support your argument you used popularity stats. Had you instead said "Regen IS popular" as a counter to the OPs statement that it wasn't then you would be in the right currently. So, if the stats were to argue it is actually popular I would like to see your argument why it doesn't need to be looked into.

 

Me, I remember Regen with toggle instant heal. It was an amazing set back then AND popular. As it stands now, without toggle IH, a character struggles to survive the Beta strike. MoG is a joke compared to the already laughable T9 defenses out there. Both of these make Regen an underwhelming choice. The popularity comes from characters like Wolverine and Deadpool, but ever since IH was detoggled it hasn't had the oomf you'd expect as shown by those two popular chacters.

 

I'd like to see IH a toggle again, even if it isn't the godly rate of early CoH. Stalker Regen, after getting one to 50, I don't think needs to be touched. With hide I feel it's easy to get enough to mitigate the lack of insane Regen with none IO defense. And since it is toggle light I didn't have much end issues.

 

Still, though, if I want a Regen character I'm usually going to go with willpower as Regen stands right now. Without insane Regen, the set just doesn't provide enough survivability to go with.

You're like the 3rd person now, who has still somehow not gotten that *it was clearly a joke* and Snowdaze was pointing out popular =/= good. It was satire, for "check your facts" he didn't say that it didn't need tweaking or that it was fine as is.

 

The rest of this, sure I agree, but please look at the context. 

 

NOW... ANECDOTALLY based on my recent teaming experiences, what I CAN agree with the OP as far as this statement goes, is that I am seeing Regeneration becoming rarer at level 50 in recent days compared to what I see what Bio Armor/Rad Armor/Fiery Aura (I don't mean farming, I mean literal PvE ones.) I'd actually say I can't think of someone I've seen recently really use Regeneration other than one friend of mine who has a Claws/Regen sort of Mynx-psuedo theme. This is purely anecdotal once again, but I will say I do agree I am seeing it far less than I am seeing other things. I think Regeneration, much like the old Fire/Kin was a big fad at CoX relaunch/Homecoming, and this nostalgia caused a surge in popularity until more elite/those who stuck around saw greater potential in other sets and now it is lesser played among the recent high-level community (minus specialties like Hamidon). 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Zeraphia

[ShardWarrior]

6 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

NOW... ANECDOTALLY based on my recent teaming experiences, what I CAN agree with the OP as far as this statement goes, is that I am seeing Regeneration becoming rarer at level 50 in recent days compared to what I see what Bio Armor/Rad Armor/Fiery Aura (I don't mean farming, I mean literal PvE ones.) I'd actually say I can't think of someone I've seen recently really use Regeneration other than one friend of mine who has a Claws/Regen sort of Mynx-psuedo theme. This is purely anecdotal once again, but I will say I do agree I am seeing it far less than I am seeing other things. I think Regeneration, much like the old Fire/Kin was a big fad at CoX relaunch/Homecoming, and this nostalgia caused a surge in popularity until more elite/those who stuck around saw greater potential in other sets and now it is lesser played among the recent high-level community (minus specialties like Hamidon). 

This is my experience as well.  Regen is a rarity at level 50 running TFs, Hami Raids and iTrials and such.  I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw one on a league.

[ShardWarrior]

8 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

Recharge debuffs, yep just like everyone else, but I can see that you bring this up because Regen can be viewed as a very much reactive set, and less of a proactive set.

Regen more than other sets is reliant upon those click heals.  Other sets offer other mitigation that work in concert with their click heal.  Regen has no resists to speak of or defense, just click heals. 

[Snowdaze]

12 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Regen more than other sets is reliant upon those click heals.  Other sets offer other mitigation that work in concert with their click heal.  Regen has no resists to speak of or defense, just click heals. 

well Resilience isn't really that shabby, but's moving it's base from 12.5 up to 15 wouldn't be the worse idea

[ShardWarrior]

6 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

well Resilience isn't really that shabby, but's moving it's base from 12.5 up to 15 wouldn't be the worse idea

Nor is it all that great. Not sure I would go with upping the resist figures on it.  Personally, I would like to see some experimenting at using this for some kind of Absorb mechanic in addition to the resists.

[Snowdaze]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Nor is it all that great. Not sure I would go with upping the resist figures on it.  Personally, I would like to see some experimenting at using this for some kind of Absorb mechanic in addition to the resists.

scaling resist maybe?

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Snowdaze said:

scaling resist maybe?

I was thinking of building into it something along the lines of the Absorb proc in Preventive Medicine. 

[Snowdaze]

42 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I was thinking of building into it something along the lines of the Absorb proc in Preventive Medicine. 

I'm leery of this for one major reason, as it stands you only have to enhance with resists. If you switch to absorb, you loose resist, and the ability to put the 3% def procs in it. If you simply add the absorb on top, now you have to put more slots in if you want to get the full effect range of enhancing.

[Galaxy Brain]

If it were to have scaling anything, I think itd be cool to have it scale up with High HP rather than low so say, at full HP you have a very strong layer of resistance that is whittled as you take big hits, but then your regen should be able to stabilize you again.

 

[Brutal Justice]

It would also help if regen was allowed to enhance its abilities 100% instead of 50% or whatever lvl is allowed.  It’s almost not worth it to slot healing in IH because so little of the power is allowed to be enhanced.  Integration and reconstruction are fully enhanceable.  Dull pain and fast healing are not.  It might not make a huge difference, but it’s something.

 

Also, proliferate it to tanks!

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Snowdaze said:

If you switch to absorb, you loose resist

Why would you?

[Zepp]

2 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Nor is it all that great. Not sure I would go with upping the resist figures on it.  Personally, I would like to see some experimenting at using this for some kind of Absorb mechanic in addition to the resists.

Have you looked at the Sentinel version?

[Snowdaze]

19 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Have you looked at the Sentinel version?

we are talking about resilience not IH

[ShardWarrior]

19 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Have you looked at the Sentinel version?

To be honest, no I have not.  I have not really played my Sentinel and I have not rolled any new Regen character as the set is too weak for my liking.

[Zepp]

@Snowdaze I am well aware. I was referring to how the issue was solved on Sentinel (which wasn't through an increase in Resist). 2.5% resist increase would be helpful, but it would not address any issues in any meaningful manner.

@ShardWarrior Basically, Instant Healing is replaced with Instant Regeneration (moved from T7->T4) and it is a Toggle +Absorb rather than a Click +Regen. I haven't tried it myself, but it seems to be perceived as a better fit for the current meta than IH. This gives them an alpha-absorbing fast-healing buffer rather than simple fast-healing. Less like traditional Regen, but it is a justifiable choice.

[Snowdaze]

14 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

To be honest, no I have not.  I have not really played my Sentinel and I have not rolled any new Regen character as the set is too weak for my liking.

IH in Sentinals has been replaced by instant regeneration, which is a absorb toggle. I wont lie, it's nifty, and great in normal combat, but in more extreme situations IH provides a much stronger buff IMO.

Also Sentinals dont get Resilience until 28, but with their run and gun I guess they really dont need it as much as a melee character. Also the Instant Regeneration is good on a sentinel because being at range they dont take as big of hits as often so it does help them shrug off the littler ones more quickly.

 

@Zepp But I'm willing to put money on if you had a Sent and a scrapper go head first into the middle of a mob solo, a scrapper with IH running is going to be able to outlast a Sent with their toggle designed for a range character.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Snowdaze

[Zepp]

8 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

IH in Sentinals has been replaced by instant regeneration, which is a absorb toggle. I wont lie, it's nifty, and great in normal combat, but in more extreme situations IH provides a much stronger buff IMO.

Also Sentinals dont get Resilience until 28, but with their run and gun I guess they really dont need it as much as a melee character. Also the Instant Regeneration is good on a sentinel because being at range they dont take as big of hits as often so it does help them shrug off the littler ones more quickly.

 

@Zepp But I'm willing to put money on if you had a Sent and a scrapper go head first into the middle of a mob solo, a scrapper with IH running is going to be able to outlast a Sent with their toggle designed for a range character.

Until IH drops because it can't be made perma... (My 1-incarnate slot build for my Spines/Regen scrapper has it at 153.9s, It would be hard to do much better without sacrificing a lot to get it.) In other words, Regen works well if you can dip out of the fight from time to time when your powers stop working, but the Sentinels version (which would have to be upped for Scrappers anyway) matches the current pacing of gameplay better because of its consistency.

[MTeague]

13 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Also Sentinals dont get Resilience until 28, but with their run and gun I guess they really dont need it as much as a melee character. Also the Instant Regeneration is good on a sentinel because being at range they dont take as big of hits as often so it does help them shrug off the littler ones more quickly.

All depends on your primary and playstyle.  My Fire/FireFire sentinel lives in melee.  I treat him like a Fire Scrapper who doensn't use Fire Swords, but who does throw fire a short range to catch runners.. 

[Snowdaze]

2 minutes ago, MTeague said:

All depends on your primary and playstyle.  My Fire/FireFire sentinel lives in melee.  I treat him like a Fire Scrapper who doensn't use Fire Swords, but who does throw fire a short range to catch runners.. 

true, and we are talking about /regen again, not /fire...

7 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Until IH drops because it can't be made perma... (My 1-incarnate slot build for my Spines/Regen scrapper has it at 153.9s, It would be hard to do much better without sacrificing a lot to get it.) In other words, Regen works well if you can dip out of the fight from time to time when your powers stop working, but the Sentinels version (which would have to be upped for Scrappers anyway) matches the current pacing of gameplay better because of its consistency.

I covered my opinion on that in a previous post

18 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

so here is my take on that: any given power if you make a build for recharge, you can normally get most powers down to somewhere between 1/5th or 1/4th of there normal recharge with the powers that you care less about recharge falling in around 1/3rd to a half. And this is on an average build, you can probably squeeze more out, but I'm gunna air on lazy just for my argument.

 

Spoiler

Now say you REALLY want that MoG on a fast recharge (and theses are rough numbers) that brings MoG somewhere in the 50~60 second range. MoG has an uptime of 15 seconds, that if you are fastidious about it's use and activation thats around a quarter of the time it's up. Seems to me that more then a moment. Now I just find the new MoG to be to brief to us for my purposes so I skip it on my regen scrappers, I can see how it would be more useful on a regen stalker, but I dont have any of those.  For being a T9 that you can Pop once every minute and be effectively an Armored Achillies for the next 15 seconds, it seams like it really doesnt need to push that envelope any further. Mind you you get out of it what you put in, but it certainly doesnt need any help in the Def or Res department, most people are gunna slot it for recharge and call it good. I'm still gunna skip it and save my slots, until they bring back Old MoG which is probably never ever going to happen.

 

Now IH, fantastic power, paired with Dull Pain you regen more then an AV! Weighs in at a nearly 11 minute recharge (650 seconds) thats pretty significant! But lets lay this one down, at worst you are going to cut this in half, but more then likely you will fall somewhere between the 1/3rd (3m36s ) and 1/4th mark (2m 42s, it actaully take a LOT of pushing to hit this mark due to ED) now it has an up time of 90s a minute and a half. So it is in general falling in around 50% uptime more or less given what you want. I think ~50% is super fair for this powerful power.

 

Now mind you I treat IH as my real T9, and I effectively try never to use it. Some times I need it and it's there for me, because it's only got ~minute and a half left to recharge when it's effect wears off.

 

I suggest the reconstruction with a slightly lower recharge because as someone else said this is Heal armor it really is, and where you might be able to just ignore the little guy and outclass the medium guy, the big guy might take a giant bite out of you and what is the first thing you do when you get hit hard on regen? You pop that reconstruction every time! Since there is very little built in resist, you are never going to have super fantastic resist numbers, unless you make large consessions (that on you), But what you can to to Overwhelmingly improve Regen is let us use Reconstruction more often, it certainly wont help you if you bite off more then you can chew... 4-5 Freakshow tanks all focused on you are very likely to squish you if they time their attacks correctly. And I say add some -regen resist to it, just to make the rest happy, and if you loose your regen you are likely going to need to hit that reconstruction a few times, and putting the resist in there will help you get your regen back a little quicker, while not making you all the time impervious to -regen, thus you will actively have to fight -regen.

 

[Snowdaze]

When it comes to IH, I feel people are perceiving a flaw or a design over sight, when they are really looking at a built in weakness for the sake of balance. It used to be a toggle, it was decided it was too strong so instead of lowing it's potency it was made to have down time! Now yes I agree it doesnt go as far as it used to with many of the new threats since the creation of the game, however I feel IO's go a long way to closing that increased risk. Perhaps the set isn't made to run on +4x8, soloing at that level was never the original dev's intention anyway! this is supposed to be a teaming game with solo capability! It's an MMO, that means people to play with!

 

I have already agreed that a little more -regen resist would be helpful. But we dont need people running around who can only be hurt by Boss level or higher groups!

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

@ShardWarrior Basically, Instant Healing is replaced with Instant Regeneration (moved from T7->T4) and it is a Toggle +Absorb rather than a Click +Regen. I haven't tried it myself, but it seems to be perceived as a better fit for the current meta than IH. This gives them an alpha-absorbing fast-healing buffer rather than simple fast-healing. Less like traditional Regen, but it is a justifiable choice.

That sounds interesting.  Definitely would like to see how this would work on Scrappers.

[MTeague]

58 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

When it comes to IH, I feel people are perceiving a flaw or a design over sight, when they are really looking at a built in weakness for the sake of balance. It used to be a toggle, it was decided it was too strong so instead of lowing it's potency it was made to have down time! Now yes I agree it doesnt go as far as it used to with many of the new threats since the creation of the game, however I feel IO's go a long way to closing that increased risk. Perhaps the set isn't made to run on +4x8, soloing at that level was never the original dev's intention anyway! this is supposed to be a teaming game with solo capability! It's an MMO, that means people to play with!

 

I have already agreed that a little more -regen resist would be helpful. But we dont need people running around who can only be hurt by Boss level or higher groups!

One angle I think that is factoring into this.  

 

To the very best of my knowledge, when IH was changed from Toggle to Click-With-Long-Downtime, it was a Scrapper Only power. 

Niether Stalkers nor Brutes even existed yet, and it wasn't available for them. 

 

Now for a SCRAPPER to have such incredibly good regen that they could out-tank-tanks, was, at that point in time, considered Unacceptable.

Should it still be considered unacceptable today, in the land of Incarnates and IO set bonuses and more?  Debatable. 

 

But generally groups are not expecting a Scrapper or Stalker to soak the alpha for a full team, one alpha after another after another after another. 

They DEFINITELY expect that of Brutes, and I think most people would say it should be a thing that Brutes are capable of. 

 

So this may require some AT-specific finessing.

Edited May 21, 2020 by MTeague

[Lost Deep]

I'd prefer the set moving away from click heals to some degree, getting more from the actual regeneration abilities. I'm fine with it being a click-heavy set, but it can still be a click-heavy set with a better constant basis. Apart from that, putting -recharge resistance into a passive or toggle is likely a good idea. Not a lot, I want to respect that weakness in the set to some dregree, but some. Apart from that, a little more resistance (even if only against limited damage types!) and maybe absorption.

 

Absorption would be a thing to try after some other tweaks, but it by all means fits the set. I'm not necessarily talking about changing IH to the sentinel IR, the details would take more refining than that, but I DO think it's something worth experimenting with. On the other hand, sometime down the line I'd like to see a dedicated defense set that uses the absorption mechanic strongly. Maybe something like an energy shield? I think the mechanic has potential and I'd like to see it used a little more.

[Doc_Scorpion]

11 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Now for a SCRAPPER to have such incredibly good regen that they could out-tank-tanks, was, at that point in time, considered Unacceptable.

Should it still be considered unacceptable today, in the land of Incarnates and IO set bonuses and more?  Debatable. 

AFAIK/AIUI, the Dev team intends to balance the game around SO's.  So they're not likely to make regen scrappers into native pseudo-tanks just because they can be IOed pseudo-tanks.

[Snowdaze]

9 minutes ago, MTeague said:

One angle I think that is factoring into this.  

 

To the very best of my knowledge, then IH was changed from Toggle to Click-With-Long-Downtime, it was a Scrapper Only power. 

Niether Stalkers nor Brutes even existed yet, and it wasn't available for them. 

 

Now for a SCRAPPER to have such incredibly good regen that they could out-tank-tanks, was, at that point in time, considered Unacceptable.

Should it still be considered unacceptable today, in the land of Incarnates and IO set bonuses and more?  Debatable. 

 

But generally groups are not expecting a Scrapper or Stalker to soak the alpha for a full team, one alpha after another after another after another. 

They DEFINITELY expect that of Brutes, and I think most people would say it should be a thing that Brutes are capable of. 

 

So this may require some AT-specific finessing.

I like where your head is. I agree Brutes totally dont fit the mold, they should be tougher but regen is does not reflect that in them. A toggle on brutes with a perhaps a toned down regen AND a SOFT shell of absorb (not to the levels of rad or bio, that crap is way overpowered) would be much more conducive to a brute style at the cost of having to be more mindful then a scrapper or stalker. 

 

Scrapper and stalkers are still able to go in and out of combat much more efficiently then a brute. And the more powerful click version fits their play style better.