Something odd about the 5th Column

[CursedSorcerer]

Ok, I just finished a Tip mission regarding a 5th Column traitor. Not really odd, except the "traitor" hostage appeared to be African-American and in my head-canon, the 5th Column is predominantly white, seeing that they're apparently supposed to be loosely based on the real-life Nazi Party.

[lokpyrite]

Reminds me of Blazing Saddles 

[Black Zot]

Looks like a "random generic NPC" model.  I suspect the game has some sort of "insert hostage here" code that pulls a random nobody any time one of these missions comes up.

 

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if not everybody in the mission saw the same poor sap getting rescued, kinda like the Gravity set's Propel.

[ArchVileTerror]

Also of note that they're on the plus-sized of things.  Maybe when you stop taking the Super Serum, your body undergoes some rather serious changes?

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, CursedSorcerer said:

a Tip mission regarding a 5th Column traitor. Not really odd, except the "traitor" hostage appeared to be African-American

Not to put too fine a point on things, but according to the mindset of the 5th Column the very birth and EXISTENCE of such a person is a "betrayal" of The Master Race™.

 

Every day is a good day to punch a wannabe Nazi in the face.

[ArchVileTerror]

I was expecting that link to lead to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

[Herotu]

40 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I was expecting that link to lead to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

I was expecting that link to lead to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Edited May 23, 2020 by Herotu

[Hardboiled Hero]

Just doing some quick searches..  Fifth column is described as "Fascist" and the organization was, at least involved with, if not born out of the German army in WW2.  That said, I'm not sure that we're meant to see them as racist..  I feel like they're kind of modeled after HYDRA.  If we follow that example,  HYDRA was led by a Nazi (The Red Skull) in WW2, but was eventually taken over by Baron Von Strucker.  Von Strucker worked with the Nazi's in order to achieve his own goals, but didn't really espouse Nazi values.  The Organization was then taken over by the Original Madame Hydra (Viper), who had no relations to Nazis at all.  Eventually she forms her own criminal/terrorist empire and rejoins Hydra as part of it's ruling "council".. at this point Hydra is some kind of association of criminal/terrorist organizations rather than being "Nazi".

 

  So I think we're meant to see 5th column as an organization that evolves like that, rather than seeing them as always being Nazi.

 

  Realistically though..  it was probably using a random model.

[Redlynne]

9 minutes ago, Hardboiled Hero said:

So I think we're meant to see 5th column as an organization that evolves like that, rather than seeing them as always being Nazi.

Nope.  They're white supremacist wannbe Nazis.

[Hardboiled Hero]

your logic is astounding, how could I possibly argue?

[AShyStarspawn]

28 minutes ago, Hardboiled Hero said:

your logic is astounding, how could I possibly argue?

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/5th_Column

 

The 5th Column are described as being literally superpowered nazis that were working for Hitler. Of course they'd be racist considering they are nazis, I am not sure why you are even trying to argue that they aren't. In regards to the black 5th Column traitor NPC it is likely the random NPC generator doing something silly or it's pointing towards the rare Uncle Tom/Uncle Ruckus.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Sleepymoth

[DasaKamov]

25 minutes ago, Hardboiled Hero said:

your logic is astounding, how could I possibly argue?

To be fair, RedLynne's logic is straight from in-game lore.  The OG Fifth Column were actual super-powered Nazi agents who sabotaged the Allied war effort.  The re-emergent Fifth Column are fanatics who hid with the ranks of The  Council, waiting for their leader to rise again, taking revenge on the nations and heros who defeated them in WW2 and pave the wave for the Fourth Reich.

[Hardboiled Hero]

4 minutes ago, Sleepymoth said:

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/5th_Column

 

The 5th Column are described as being literally superpowered nazis that were working for Hitler. Of course they'd be racist considering they are nazis, I am not sure why you are even trying to argue that they aren't. In regards to the black 5th Column traitor NPC it is likely the random NPC doing something silly or it's pointing towards the rare Uncle Tom/Uncle Ruckus.

  Wow?  Really?  Didn't know anyone actually cared that much about whether the villains they're fighting are Nazi's, or just run of the mill, all purpose, fascists.

 

  Even the "proof" that you linked only mentioned the word "Nazi" once.. and it's not in regard to the modern beliefs of the 5th column.  That article DOES say "formed in 1938 by the fascists Requiem, Vandal, and Nosferatu, The 5th column is an organization that has gone through a great deal of change." I mean.. that's literally the opening line.

 

    If it makes you feel any better, many of the missions against the 5th column are time/dimension travel missions, in which the fifth column is still apparently supporting Nazi or Nazi-esqu structures.

 

  To Paraphrase the quote from Wreck-it Ralph  "Just because someone isn't a bad guy, doesn't mean their not bad-guys".

 

 

[MTeague]

Having the 5th Column gradually morph into a Hydra-Esque organization is not entirely implausible.  I mean, they have to recruit / brainwash from current generations as time goes by, and the VAST majority of the populace (correctly) sees the Nazi roots as morally bankrupt and abhorrent.  This is not to say Requiem or the Center are in any way changed, but the average grunt may just be sold on "be the new ruling class / super man" as opposed to "and exterminate everyone else".

 

EXCEPT.... there's a 25-29 story arc... "The Unknown Ubelmann".... where you find a WW2 Era nazi time travelled to the future to learn all he can about modern technology and what went wrong in the war so he can take it back in time and change history and make sure the Germans won.... and it's said his presence is "good for morale" among the 5th Column's general ranks. 

 

If you change THAT much of human history, half the people might cease to exist as their parents never meet up, etc. 

So you'd have to be pretty dedicated to the Nazi ideas to consider the presence of someone actively trying to change human history to ensure the Axis won to be a morale-boosting thing, instead of "shoot him dead now to ensure my family isn't wiped from history"

[ArchVileTerror]

I mean, it's been brought up a few times already in other threads, but Nemesis is more precisely demonstrated as a racist scumbag within the in-game lore than the 5th are, what with a racial genocide in an alternate dimension.

But at the end of the day, I think we can all safely agree that both Nemesis and the 5th are poopy-heads for who we have a moral and ethical obligation to punch in the nose.  Repeatably.

[Redlynne]

15 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I mean, they have to recruit / brainwash from current generations as time goes by, and the VAST majority of the populace (correctly) sees the Nazi roots as morally bankrupt and abhorrent.

Have you SEEN what has happened in America in the past 3.5 years???

 

There are a LOT of Nazi Curious white supremacists out there in America ... still ...

[Hardboiled Hero]

Even if I believed that statement, the racism that does exist in America today would probably not want to be linked to "Nazis".  Just as there are many fascists other than Nazis, there are also many racists other than Nazis.

 

  This is kinda why I can't believe it matters if the 5th column are "Nazis".  Evil is evil no matter what you call it.

[Tiger Shadow]

So what I'm hearing is that the Fifth Column used to be Nazis, but quit being Nazis while retaining the racism, fascism, and the same general aesthetic.

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I mean, it's been brought up a few times already in other threads, but Nemesis is more precisely demonstrated as a racist scumbag within the in-game lore than the 5th are, what with a racial genocide in an alternate dimension.

But at the end of the day, I think we can all safely agree that both Nemesis and the 5th are poopy-heads for who we have a moral and ethical obligation to punch in the nose.  Repeatably.

I do always hear this line in my head at the start of every 5th Column mission:

 

[Eva Destruction]

The 5th Column are Nazis because punching Nazis is a fine superhero tradition that many of us are more than happy to continue.  Beating up generic fascists is just not quite as satisfying.

[RikOz]

On the topic of random hostage models in general, I've been thinking for a while that the original devs could have at least implemented something to ensure that named hostages, at the very least, would look the same every time. Randomization is fine for generic hostages in "rescue 5 hostages" missions. But when you're rescuing a specific individual with a proper name, it ought to use the same model every time.

 

This is especially egregious in that Kings Row arc where that named woman is about to be executed, and it turns out that Juan Jimenez has been captured as well. Bad enough that the named woman has a different model each time, but Juan Jimenez is an actual contact in the zone with a specific model, yet he's still randomized inside the mission.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Hardboiled Hero said:

This is kinda why I can't believe it matters if the 5th column are "Nazis".

Because even when you're told it ... even when you know it to be a fact ... you still refuse to believe the evidence of your eyes and intellect.

 

The Russians have a term for that ... "Useful Idiot" ...

[Redlynne]

1 minute ago, RikOz said:

but Juan Jimenez is an actual contact in the zone with a specific model

There's more than one Juan Jimenez in the world ...

[RikOz]

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

There's more than one Juan Jimenez in the world ...

Right, but when the mission-giver says, "they got Juan Jimenez too", and he's a known contact in the same zone, it's pretty clear they're referring to that specific Juan.

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, MTeague said:

Having the 5th Column gradually morph into a Hydra-Esque organization is not entirely implausible.

 

8 hours ago, Hardboiled Hero said:

I feel like they're kind of modeled after HYDRA.

 

So ... funny story.

I just finished a 15-19 mission for Shadowstar (here's the link to it) ... and what do I find is the main mob to defeat inside the mission?

 

Heil HYDRA!

 

 

The Council AND the 5th Column are BOTH Totally Nazis (one just wants it more than the other).

The only difference between them is the ... DEPTHS ... of their ... PURITY ...