Improvements to PvP zones

[Alpha-One]

TL;DR: make PvPers participate in zone content rather than use zone content to draw in non-PvPers for them to kill, and make PvPers think twice before attacking a player doing zone content.

 

After spending a couple weeks badging in the PvP zones on Indomitable (the unofficial PvP server), I've had the opportunity to observe various PvPer behaviors and have come up with some ideas that would make zone PvP more fun and relevenant. For starters to comment on PvPer behaviors:

1) PvPers don't want to fight, they want to kill.

2) PvPers don't want to do zone content as intended.

3) PvPers have a distinct preference for one-hit kills (stalkers and proc-stacking).

4) PvPers don't want to play fair, and will take any advantage they can get.

5) non-PvPers (badgers, casual players) are favored targets because they usually don't have PvP optimized builds and are easy to predict and stalk.

 

So to combat what some could see as unfair gameplay I've come up with the following suggestions to improve the PvP zones (not Arena). I've found that other than Recluse's Victory the PvP zones are mostly empty aside from the occasional player going for temp powers. At least Warburg and Bloody Bay have a reason to visit. But Siren's Call has no reason to visit other than plaques and exploration badges. In RV, PvPers mostly play stalkers and blasters and hide out near heavies and pillboxes waiting for other players to come in and do zone content so they can have turkeys to shoot. Calling out for help to take down an AV in Broadcast is basically asking for every opposing PvPer to come and get you.

 

PvP zone improvements

 

• Increase all PvP zone caps to lvl 50 (make all zones worth fighting in with your top-tier incarnate build)

• Reduce Stalker stealth cap or increase Perception cap so stalkers can be spotted (mitigate stalker advantage in some way)

• Have MM pets stay alive for 1 minute after the MM is defeated (MMs, especially those busy doing zone content, are easy prey)

• Upon defeat a MM grants Vengeance to pets and allies nearby (basically, punish the player who went for an "easy" kill, they either have to deal with the pets first or deal with buffed pets after)

• Upon defeating another player you are granted a large stacking damage and resistance debuff for 15 minutes (prevent "camping" as getting a kill means you now have to focus on surviving rather than waiting for your kill to rez and come back to where you're waiting for them)

• Upon reviving in hospital after being defeated by another player you are granted a large damage and resistance buff for 15 minutes, which is revoked immediately upon defeating another player (gives the defeated player a "fighting chance" on his next go, also prevents a feedback loop and favors back and forth combat between players)

• Encourage or Force PvPers to participate in zone content so they can PvP.

 

Recluse's Victory (encourage zone content: pillbox taking and defeating AVs)

• Flag PvP off to all players upon entering zone (prevent "camping")

• Flag PvP on for 5 minutes when a player captures a pillbox (makes a PvPer  participate in zone content)

• Flag PvP on for 15 minutes when a player defeats a Signature Hero or Villain

Warburg (encourage zone content: fighting for Rocket codes)

• Flag PvP off to all players upon entering zone (prevent "camping")

• Improve Lab Tech AI to better follow stealthed players

• Being granted a code flags player for PvP vs opposing faction after a 1 minute delay (now that the player has a code to steal they're fair game)

• Successfully launching a rocket grants a random Purple or PvP recipe if player already has Temp Power (again encourage zone content)

 

Siren's Call (Make Siren's Call THE free-for-all PvP Zone)

• Flag PvP on for all players (not just Hero vs Villain) upon entering zone (like in Warburg currently)

• Player with most consecutive kills is flagged as Bounty (give a reason to have a bounty)

• Defeating Bounty grants a random Purple or PvP recipe (encourage hunting down and defeating the Bounty player)

 

Bloody Bay (encourage zone content: Shiva Strike mission)

• Flag PvP off for all players upon entering zone (prevent "camping")

• Flag PvP on for 5 minutes when a player scans a meteor (now that the player has something to fight for they're fair game)

• Flag PvP on for 15 minutes when a player takes over a Firebase (player now has the BIG thing but also now has the advantage of turret support against players hoping to take his sample)

• Have turrets respawn as pets controllable by the player who took over that Firebase (like in Recluse's Victory)

• Delivering Ore Sample to Scientist grants a random Purple or PvP recipe if player already has Shivan Shard temp power (again encourage zone content)

 

 

 

 

[Greycat]

Um. Just generally "no."

 

Honestly, I had criticisms - and I've made suggestions for Siren's, in particular - but most of this sounds like "Make PVPers play the way I want them to." Especially the "flag off and on" stuff, "PVPers don't play fair!" (come on, you even *said* it, so don't say it's a mischaracterization,) and... well, just everything.

 

Leave the zone caps alone. I find it funny that you mention PVEers being "preferred targets" (while mentioning the zones being empty,) then turn around and do something that would make non-PVP-focused builds *even easier* (lvl 15 or 20 versus an *incarnated out* level 50? Really?)

 

Oh, and - "PvPers don't want to do zone content as intended." It's a PVP ZONE. PVP IS THE CONTENT. The rest of it is just stuff to fight *around.* To create focal points to bring players into conflict. By PVPing, they are *literally doing the thing the zones are meant for.*

 

Just a whole stack of no here. Stacks upon stacks of no.

 

 

[EmpireForgotten]

Quote

Warburg (encourage zone content: fighting for Rocket codes)

• Flag PvP off to all players upon entering zone (prevent "camping")

• Improve Lab Tech AI to better follow stealthed players

• Being granted a code flags player for PvP vs opposing faction after a 1 minute delay (now that the player has a code to steal they're fair game)

• Successfully launching a rocket grants a random Purple or PvP recipe if player already has Temp Power (again encourage zone content

Bloody Bay (encourage zone content: Shiva Strike mission)

• Flag PvP off for all players upon entering zone (prevent "camping")

• Flag PvP on for 5 minutes when a player scans a meteor (now that the player has something to fight for they're fair game)

• Flag PvP on for 15 minutes when a player takes over a Firebase (player now has the BIG thing but also now has the advantage of turret support against players hoping to take his sample)

• Have turrets respawn as pets controllable by the player who took over that Firebase (like in Recluse's Victory)

• Delivering Ore Sample to Scientist grants a random Purple or PvP recipe if player already has Shivan Shard temp power (again encourage zone content)

 

Honestly, The bolded part seems great, but a Purple just seems like overkill. 

Maybe a SO enhancement (random origin), or perhaps an Inspiration (Medium MAX..Large would be abused). I think two those types of rewards would really get the blood pumping

[ImpousVileTerror]

I'm not a PvPer, but I've dabbled -very- lightly in PvP.

The sorts of players you describe in your opening paragraph aren't people who I would label as "The PvPers."   The ones you describe are more like "the assholes."  There are plenty of people who engage in PvP who aren't toxic.

There is certainly a -problem- with toxic behaviour in PvP zones which drives away a lot of people who otherwise might consider dabbling, and finding ways to address that conduct is a good thing.

Just thought I would emphasize that, and encourage you to consider rephrasing your opening . . . before you get dedicated PvPers in here who take more serious umbrage with being lumped in to the same profane category as those people who suck the fun and joy out of the game for others.

[Outrider_01]

Pfft, easy enough to out run in most cases if not interested.  Kill badges, kinda hard though.  In and out mission running, macro port.  Standing near the drones with protection INSP, loved it when morons got zapped after they couldn't TP foe.

[Greycat]

42 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

I'm not a PvPer, but I've dabbled -very- lightly in PvP.

The sorts of players you describe in your opening paragraph aren't people who I would label as "The PvPers."   The ones you describe are more like "the assholes."  There are plenty of people who engage in PvP who aren't toxic.

There is certainly a -problem- with toxic behaviour in PvP zones which drives away a lot of people who otherwise might consider dabbling, and finding ways to address that conduct is a good thing.

Just thought I would emphasize that, and encourage you to consider rephrasing your opening . . . before you get dedicated PvPers in here who take more serious umbrage with being lumped in to the same profane category as those people who suck the fun and joy out of the game for others.

See, there's something else here, too, though.  It sounds - and this may just be from *years* of live arguments that went "PVPers PVPing in a PVP zone aren't fair!" and "Stalkers are unfair because I can't see them." Just PVPers *wanting to PVP* are described by many who "just want to get what's in the zone" as ... well, your category there of "the assholes." It's been that way since live.

 

I mean, honestly - if someone came on the forum and said "Let me turn off the ability for people to aggro, fight and kill the Council war walker in boomtown because I want to RP that I'm building and controlling it and people keep interrupting it. They're mean, they're jerks!" what do you think the reaction would be? And yet that's pretty much what's been thrown at PVPers wanting to be able to fight and kill - and yes, that includes stalking and one-hit (if possible) defeating - other players in the *extremely limited* number of zones - none of which have anything required to compete the game, none of which even have people forced to go to them for anything - set aside to PVP in. If the game were set up like Aion (where the main quest about you getting your memory back of who you really were *forced* you to go into the main PVP zones and go to specific points where, yes, people would ambush you frequently,) then I'd have some degree of sympathy and agree there had to be some sort of flag, some sort of "fairness" or alternative. But, it doesn't.

 

PVP zones need help, yes. And even if they were perfect, they wouldn't encourage more people to PVP en masse - that's just not what this community does, even without the whole "powers work sometimes very differently in PVP" issues. The OP's suggestions and reasoning, though...

[MrsAlphaOne]

Greycat:  The problem is, when they just keep killing you over and over and over and over again, no stop just once you get out of hosp it's BAM Assassin Strike again.  So kill farming/ganking.  It's not really PVP, but more like...Seal Clubbing.

Maybe figure out how to make seal clubbing not as attractive, yk?  So maybe a timer on the defeated hero so they can't be killed for X amount of time?  

[Frozen Rune]

4 minutes ago, MrsAlphaOne said:

 So maybe a timer on the defeated hero so they can't be killed for X amount of time?  

There is a timer already, It's 30 seconds...plenty of time. 

[Bug You 2]

Epilepsi warning

Spoiler

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Gentry

[MrsAlphaOne]

Then remove the badges for the zone objectives.  Solved

 

[macskull]

/jranger

[Rathulfr]

"This is why we can't have nice things!"  😭

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Rathulfr

[MTeague]

I mean, you're in PvP zones on the PvP server. I would fully expect to be ganked on those conditions. 

 

I would say your options are

a) transfer to another server where the PvP zones are near-abandoned, then transfer back after you have your badges.

b) beat the war drums and find like-minded folk or at least useful distractions of people to flood the PvP zone all at once. This will scare off the folks looking for easy kill farms. And if they beat their war drums, you have a modest chance to go and get your badges while everyone else slugs it out.

[Glacier Peak]

While I don't agree with the assumptions you've stated at the beginning of your suggestion post or any of your follow on suggestions, I do support continued discussion on enticing more players to try out or participate in the many outlets for Player versus Player content in this game.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Glacier Peak

[Alpha-One]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

Honestly, I had criticisms - and I've made suggestions for Siren's, in particular - but most of this sounds like "Make PVPers play the way I want them to."

Your argument would have some merit if it didn't boil down to "griefing is a valid playstyle". We all like having griefers come and mess up zone events so let's just encourage griefing in those four zones that also have things to do in them. My suggestions boil down to "make griefing a PITA".

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, MrsAlphaOne said:

Then remove the badges for the zone objectives.  Solved

 

I wouldn't call that a solution. The badges mentioned are PvP badges, are they not? Perhaps looking at this issue in an alternative light may prove more fruitful.

 

The author of this thread could transfer from Indomitable to another server which has less of a PvP population and then transfer back once they are done with their objectives.

 

The author of this thread could also solicit assistance from others to form a team against such adversaries they find are preventing their goals, and if necessary, carry out combat through coordination and timing using the specially designed systems and mechanics of the zone in question. 

[Frozen Rune]

Curious how playing the way the game is designed to be played is considered griefing? 

[MrsAlphaOne]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

I wouldn't call that a solution. The badges mentioned are PvP badges, are they not? Perhaps looking at this issue in an alternative light may prove more fruitful.

 

The author of this thread could transfer from Indomitable to another server which has less of a PvP population and then transfer back once they are done with their objectives.

 

The author of this thread could also solicit assistance from others to form a team against such adversaries they find are preventing their goals, and if necessary, carry out combat through coordination and timing using the specially designed systems and mechanics of the zone in question. 

Remove the badges, remove the carebears.  No more Seal Clubbing, Problem solved.  Done.

[MrsAlphaOne]

1 minute ago, Frozen Rune said:

Curious how playing the way the game is designed to be played is considered griefing? 

Seal Clubbing is pretty close to griefing.

[macskull]

3 minutes ago, Alpha-One said:

Your argument would have some merit if it didn't boil down to "griefing is a valid playstyle". We all like having griefers come and mess up zone events so let's just encourage griefing in those four zones that also have things to do in them. My suggestions boil down to "make griefing a PITA".

You're intentionally and willingly entering a zone that has PvP as its primary purpose and you're complaining about being attacked by other players. Heck, you're even greeted after zoning with a dialog box that says something along the lines of "You are now entering a PvP zone and may be attacked by other players."

[Alpha-One]

20 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I mean, you're in PvP zones on the PvP server. I would fully expect to be ganked on those conditions. 

 

I would say your options are

a) transfer to another server where the PvP zones are near-abandoned, then transfer back after you have your badges.

b) beat the war drums and find like-minded folk or at least useful distractions of people to flood the PvP zone all at once. This will scare off the folks looking for easy kill farms. And if they beat their war drums, you have a modest chance to go and get your badges while everyone else slugs it out.

That's what I heard way back on live too. I wouldn't go into a PvP zone if I didn't have something to do there that wasn't PvP. So those badges are just there to entice seals to go in and get clubbed.

[Frozen Rune]

2 minutes ago, MrsAlphaOne said:

Seal Clubbing is pretty close to griefing.

Seal goes clubbing all the time and he loves it!

 

 

 

In all seriousness, this has been debated since PvP was put into this game. If you want to badge, it's easy enough to find a time when someone isn't in the zone. Most PvPers are pretty decent people and won't farm people if one doesn't act like an entitled person. 

 

There is also badges for PvP kills in zone, so perhaps people are working on those badges just as you are working on explore badges. Maybe one could work out a compromise where you both get the badges you need. 

[macskull]

4 minutes ago, Alpha-One said:

That's what I heard way back on live too. I wouldn't go into a PvP zone if I didn't have something to do there that wasn't PvP. So those badges are just there to entice seals to go in and get clubbed.

So maybe PvP zones and the content in them aren't for you. I think at this point it's best to leave it at that instead of trying to change them for the worse. Some of your ideas in the OP have merit (specifically rewards if you already have a rocket/shivan temp) but the rest of your suggestions show you don't understand PvP and would rather everyone else be dragged down to your level. That's how we got Issue 13.

 

EDIT: Also, the only PvP zone that's routinely active is Recluse's Victory on Indomitable. Any of the other zones are mostly empty to the point you can go in knowing there won't be any players there. The risk is tiny at worst.

Edited June 13, 2020 by macskull

[Alpha-One]

Just now, macskull said:

You're intentionally and willingly entering a zone that has PvP as its primary purpose and you're complaining about being attacked by other players. Heck, you're even greeted after zoning with a dialog box that says something along the lines of "You are now entering a PvP zone and may be attacked by other players."

And yet there is no way for someone to enter the zone and say "I want to do the stuff that's here but I don't want to be engaged in PvP". Again, Siren's Call is empty, for two reasons I can fathom 1) the level cap, and 2) the bounty system helps players track down and engage others actively. There's no spot to sit and wait in ambush like in the other 3 zones.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Alpha-One said:

That's what I heard way back on live too. I wouldn't go into a PvP zone if I didn't have something to do there that wasn't PvP. So those badges are just there to entice seals to go in and get clubbed.

I disagree with this statement. Are you unaware of the risk implied in the message that displays immediately upon entering a PvP zone or are you choosing to ignore the stated fact that PvP zones exist for PvP?